CBB QT Prazi and issue? Help

[K9Fish]

CBB has been in QT with copper for 32 days and Prazi started last night after copper level to 0.62. This morning the nodules on Left pelvic fin and anal fin showed up. These were not there last night before Prazi started. What am I dealing with and what should I do? The water quality is good and he eats a variety of frozen food like a pig along with mastic. Thanks

 

[Joj]

I couldn’t see clearly from the video but your description is most likely lympho. Usually it’s based on bad water quality or stress (from the meds, esp copper). Lympho might get worst until you remove it from QT or the meds gets removed from QT and water ‘improves’. Should go away after a while in ‘good’ and stress free environment.

 

[vetteguy53081]

CBB has been in QT with copper for 32 days and Prazi started last night after copper level to 0.62. This morning the nodules on Left pelvic fin and anal fin showed up. These were not there last night before Prazi started. What am I dealing with and what should I do? The water quality is good and he eats a variety of frozen food like a pig along with mastic. Thanks

Looks like lymphocystis. Lympho is a condition and not disease. Often its associated with water quality issue as simple as elevated ammonia or nitrate and can be that of water from LFS and not yours. Assure to provide Good water quality monitored by a reliable test kit and feed nutritious food with fats such as LRS nano frenzy and mysis shrimp.
What copper were you using- Cupramine or coppersafe?

 

[exnisstech]

One of the reasons I do observation only on these guys. It seems like medicating in QT does more harm than good, at least that's been my experience. But it's a personal choice and I get both sides.

 

[K9Fish]

Looks like lymphocystis. Lympho is a condition and not disease. Often its associated with water quality issue as simple as elevated ammonia or nitrate and can be that of water from LFS and not yours. Assure to provide Good water quality monitored by a reliable test kit and feed nutritious food with fats such as LRS nano frenzy and mysis shrimp.
What copper were you using- Cupramine or coppersafe?

Copper Power. His diet is very good and he pretty much eats everything and is beginning to even try some pellets. It’s just seems odd that no signs of anything until copper stopped and Prazi started and less than 12 hours later this pops up.

 

[K9Fish]

One of the reasons I do observation only on these guys. It seems like medicating in QT does more harm than good, at least that's been my experience. But it's a personal choice and I get both sides.

Had zero issues through 30+ days of Copper. Once you live through a velvet outbreak it’s hard not to believe in 100% QT and treatment. And Observation for inverts for extended length of time.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Copper Power. His diet is very good and he pretty much eats everything and is beginning to even try some pellets. It’s just seems odd that no signs of anything until copper stopped and Prazi started and less than 12 hours later this pops up.

The copper level you used is way under the quarantine level of 2.0-2.25 and how are you doing the prazi treatment?

 

[Tcook]

I think he meant that he changed water to let the copper drop to 0.62 before starting prazi. At least I hope that wasn’t the treatment level?

 

[K9Fish]

The copper level you used is way under the quarantine level of 2.0-2.25 and how are you doing the prazi treatment?

Yes, my copper level for 30+ days was 2.25-2.50. After the 30+ days and water change copper was 0.62 and I started the Prazi. There was NO break in QT protocols. They have been followed to the “T” (actually extended the days).

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yes, my copper level for 30+ days was 2.25-2.50. After the 30+ days and water change copper was 0.62 and I started the Prazi. There was NO break in QT protocols. They have been followed to the “T” (actually extended the days).

Ok great - just saw the .62 mentioned. To clarify with Prazi -
apply initial dosage known as an interval for 8 days, do a water change and do one more 8 day dose interval
Use airstone with prazi as it does reduce both oxygen and appetite.

 

[K9Fish]

The copper level you used is way under the quarantine level of 2.0-2.25 and how are you doing the prazi treatment?

My copper level was NOT 0.62 during treatment. It was 2.25-2.50 for 30+ days. I emailed you about my level being 0.62 yesterday after water change and if I should wait a day or two before starting Prazi and you responded I was good to start. QT protocols have been followed to the T. My question is still the nodules popped up last night in the first 12 hours of Prazi treatment at 1 tsp per 20 gallons. Is there anything I should do or be worried about? And what is it? His diet is great and the water quality is good. There were absolutely no issues through copper treatment.

 

[vetteguy53081]

My copper level was NOT 0.62 during treatment. It was 2.25-2.50 for 30+ days. I emailed you about my level being 0.62 yesterday after water change and if I should wait a day or two before starting Prazi and you responded I was good to start. QT protocols have been followed to the T. My question is still the nodules popped up last night in the first 12 hours of Prazi treatment at 1 tsp per 20 gallons. Is there anything I should do or be worried about? And what is it? His diet is great and the water quality is good. There were absolutely no issues through copper treatment.

This is often a reaction and as mentioned a condition - Not unusual for this type of fish. No worries with what you see. Will fall off by itself

 

[Tcook]

My copper level was NOT 0.62 during treatment. It was 2.25-2.50 for 30+ days. I emailed you about my level being 0.62 yesterday after water change and if I should wait a day or two before starting Prazi and you responded I was good to start. QT protocols have been followed to the T. My question is still the nodules popped up last night in the first 12 hours of Prazi treatment at 1 tsp per 20 gallons. Is there anything I should do or be worried about? And what is it? His diet is great and the water quality is good. There were absolutely no issues through copper treatment.

As others have mentioned this is lymphocytosis, viral infection. Will improve as water quality is maintained.

 

[K9Fish]

This is often a reaction and as mentioned a condition - Not unusual for this type of fish. No worries with what you see. Will fall off by itself

Ok great, thanks. You’ve helped me get through the velvet outbreak and I’ve been following the QT protocols exactly and then some. Thanks for all your help.

 

[exnisstech]

Had zero issues through 30+ days of Copper. Once you live through a velvet outbreak it’s hard not to believe in 100% QT and treatment. And Observation for inverts for extended length of time.

Yep, been through velvet on 150g and 180g that shared a sump but I still do observation only on certain fish. I'm probably fooling myself but if I don't see disease in 30 days I feel pretty safe adding them to the DT.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok great, thanks. You’ve helped me get through the velvet outbreak and I’ve been following the QT protocols exactly and then some. Thanks for all your help.

The fish looks pretty good - and is eating well. Given the timing and the way it looks, this is almost 100% Lymphocystis. It may get worse for a time, but will eventually get better on its own after one to two months. Here is a write-up I did on this:

Lymphocystis (cauliflower disease)

This is a common viral disease of marine, brackish, and certain freshwater fishes (usually those with marine relatives: glassfish and rainbowfish). It is a chronic (long-lasting) but self-limiting (usually going away on its own) syndrome caused by an iridovirus. The virus causes hypertrophy (enlargement) of the epithelial cells of a fish’s skin and fins.

Initial symptoms consist of off-white to gray nodules on the fish that spread and grow larger over a timeframe of 10 to 90 days. Commonly, when a Lymphocystis nodule forms on a pectoral fin, a new nodule will soon begin to form on the part of the fish that is brushed by the fin, indicating that direct contact can be a mode of spreading the infection.

When Lymphocystis first starts, the small growths can be misdiagnosed as a protozoan infection, such as Cryptocaryon, or even a bacterial infection. The fact that the lesions are long-lasting and do not cause the fish to become acutely ill rules out these more virulent diseases.

Since Lymphocystis is most often seen in newly imported fishes, capture and transport stresses are often mentioned as the stressors that allow this disease to take hold. While this may be true, it may also be that the cause is actually exposure to other infected fish in the aquarium systems of the exporter, importer, or retail suppliers. In any event, it is extremely rare for a fish held in captivity for more than four to six months to suddenly develop this disease.

Treatment with copper sulfate has also been implicated in the development of Lymphocystis in marine fish. The connection is actually not very clear, in that copper sulfate is most often used on newly imported fishes, and those are the ones that develop the disease most often.

Lymphocystis infections can sometimes become more serious, covering large areas of a fish’s body and even interfering with proper feeding if the cell growth involves areas around the mouth. In rare instances, the virus can also cause enlargement of the cells of internal organs, especially in marine fishes (Wolf 1988). This has the potential of causing serious, yet difficult-to-identify diseases in marine fishes.

A variety of cures have been suggested for this disease over the years. Some public aquarists have reported that a reduction in the animal’s environmental stress level will help reduce the severity of an infection. Others have reported that treatment with a mixture of malachite green and formalin (Quick Cure, Formalite, etc.) helps limit the spread of the lesions. Since both of these compounds can damage an aquarium’s bio-filter, and since both are toxic to fish, care must be taken if this method is attempted. By far, the most commonly recommended treatment involves surgically removing the hypertrophied skin cells, followed with a topical antibiotic to hopefully prevent secondary bacterial infection.

The general advice is to never intercede with a Lymphocystis infection—just let it run its course. The only exception might be if the fish develops a severe form of the disease, and its mouth develops lesions that might inhibit it from feeding. Even in those extreme cases, surgery around the mouth will also cause the fish to stop feeding, so it may be better to just wait it out (Hemdal 2014).


Interestingly, aquarists do not seem to report Lymphocystis infections in their fish as often as they did in the 1970’s and 1980’s. Anecdotally, the disease does not seem as common in public aquariums overall as it used to be. The reason(s) for this change are unclear. It may be that more aquarists are familiar with the syndrome, know that it is usually self-limiting, and therefore do not report it. It may also be that marine fish traveling through the commercial supply chain are being handled better, with less stress, making the outbreaks less common.

Jay

 

[K9Fish]

The fish looks pretty good - and is eating well. Given the timing and the way it looks, this is almost 100% Lymphocystis. It may get worse for a time, but will eventually get better on its own after one to two months. Here is a write-up I did on this:

Lymphocystis (cauliflower disease)

This is a common viral disease of marine, brackish, and certain freshwater fishes (usually those with marine relatives: glassfish and rainbowfish). It is a chronic (long-lasting) but self-limiting (usually going away on its own) syndrome caused by an iridovirus. The virus causes hypertrophy (enlargement) of the epithelial cells of a fish’s skin and fins.

Initial symptoms consist of off-white to gray nodules on the fish that spread and grow larger over a timeframe of 10 to 90 days. Commonly, when a Lymphocystis nodule forms on a pectoral fin, a new nodule will soon begin to form on the part of the fish that is brushed by the fin, indicating that direct contact can be a mode of spreading the infection.

When Lymphocystis first starts, the small growths can be misdiagnosed as a protozoan infection, such as Cryptocaryon, or even a bacterial infection. The fact that the lesions are long-lasting and do not cause the fish to become acutely ill rules out these more virulent diseases.

Since Lymphocystis is most often seen in newly imported fishes, capture and transport stresses are often mentioned as the stressors that allow this disease to take hold. While this may be true, it may also be that the cause is actually exposure to other infected fish in the aquarium systems of the exporter, importer, or retail suppliers. In any event, it is extremely rare for a fish held in captivity for more than four to six months to suddenly develop this disease.

Treatment with copper sulfate has also been implicated in the development of Lymphocystis in marine fish. The connection is actually not very clear, in that copper sulfate is most often used on newly imported fishes, and those are the ones that develop the disease most often.

Lymphocystis infections can sometimes become more serious, covering large areas of a fish’s body and even interfering with proper feeding if the cell growth involves areas around the mouth. In rare instances, the virus can also cause enlargement of the cells of internal organs, especially in marine fishes (Wolf 1988). This has the potential of causing serious, yet difficult-to-identify diseases in marine fishes.

A variety of cures have been suggested for this disease over the years. Some public aquarists have reported that a reduction in the animal’s environmental stress level will help reduce the severity of an infection. Others have reported that treatment with a mixture of malachite green and formalin (Quick Cure, Formalite, etc.) helps limit the spread of the lesions. Since both of these compounds can damage an aquarium’s bio-filter, and since both are toxic to fish, care must be taken if this method is attempted. By far, the most commonly recommended treatment involves surgically removing the hypertrophied skin cells, followed with a topical antibiotic to hopefully prevent secondary bacterial infection.

The general advice is to never intercede with a Lymphocystis infection—just let it run its course. The only exception might be if the fish develops a severe form of the disease, and its mouth develops lesions that might inhibit it from feeding. Even in those extreme cases, surgery around the mouth will also cause the fish to stop feeding, so it may be better to just wait it out (Hemdal 2014).


Interestingly, aquarists do not seem to report Lymphocystis infections in their fish as often as they did in the 1970’s and 1980’s. Anecdotally, the disease does not seem as common in public aquariums overall as it used to be. The reason(s) for this change are unclear. It may be that more aquarists are familiar with the syndrome, know that it is usually self-limiting, and therefore do not report it. It may also be that marine fish traveling through the commercial supply chain are being handled better, with less stress, making the outbreaks less common.

Jay

Thank you.
B-