Bristol tooth tang sick?

musaabi · Mar 5, 2021

So my white bristle tooth tang had white spots on its body that looked rather large to look like ich. I figured it might be due to abrasions since he loves to swim into all the crevices or maybe a sting from my rbta as he seems daring. He does visit my skunk shrimp quiet often for cleaning and he seemed to do better. Spots went away on the body but still some minor spots on the fins. He was very active and would swim everywhere with my carpenter wrasse as if they were best friends and would always be munching. When I would feed he would go into frenzy mode. The past couple of days he seems to be hiding in his cave and when feeding he’ll grab a bite or 2 and go back to hiding and he’s not swimming around like he used to. I managed to get a picture of him to help with identification. I had him maybe around 3-4 weeks at this point and he was in my LFS for about 2 weeks before I decided to pull the trigger on him and they treat and quarantine all fish and their fish tanks have copper treatment as well. No other fish are showing any symptoms however I found my black storm clown I added exactly 1 week ago was dead this morning. I’ll include photos of both. I did dip my dead black clown fish in fresh water to see if it was flukes and don’t see anything in the water.

temp is at 77.5-78.2
Salinity is 1.028
0 ammonia
0 nitrite
I don’t have a low resolution phosphate test kit yet but its showing under .25 on API
Ph runs from 8 during the day to 7.75 during the evening according to apex
Kh is 8
Ca 450
Mg 1320
I don’t have a QT tank as of yet just because all my fish have been sourced from the same LFS and they seem to do a good job on quarantining before hand but I do have a 5 gallon black bucket with a pump and heater if I needed to rig something up quickly

fishguy242 · Mar 5, 2021

@Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Jay Hemdal · Mar 5, 2021

The tangs mouth seems gaping. Can you count the respiration rate for me? Number of gill beats per minute. If you can count for 15 seconds, just multiply by 4.
If the respiration rate is elevated, m first thought would be velvet.
Jay

vetteguy53081 · Mar 5, 2021

Gaping comes with a warning.
Two concerns I have are the sudden behavior and also parameters.
Salt is quite high and needs to be brought down GRADUALLY by adding to in little increments to the sump.1,025 should be your target
The other are your readings Not countering against you but the API TEST kit which is notorious for false readings and has let down many reefers hence the low price for a master kit
I would ASAP take a good water sample to a trusted LFS that does not use api kits and have them test the water for you and see what results they come up with.
High ammonia and salinity combined can cause oxygen issues.
Jay I believe is on right track with parasite and here is where I butt out and let him finish with you
Add an air stone if you can to increase oxygen and water movement

musaabi · Mar 5, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
The tangs mouth seems gaping. Can you count the respiration rate for me? Number of gill beats per minute. If you can count for 15 seconds, just multiply by 4.
If the respiration rate is elevated, m first thought would be velvet.
Jay

I was thinking it’s flukes. I brought the deceased clown to the shop I purchased and they said it looks like specs of flukes in the water with the fish. Kinda hard to count but about 20 or gill beats per 15 secs so about 80 per min. I got a bucket of RODI with a bubbler and heater going. Thinking of doing a fresh water dip but waiting to hear back from you guys. Question about the dip, do I have to slowly bring the salinity up or can it be ”rapid” change?

Jay Hemdal · Mar 5, 2021

musaabi said:
I was thinking it’s flukes. I brought the deceased clown to the shop I purchased and they said it looks like specs of flukes in the water with the fish. Kinda hard to count but about 20 or gill beats per 15 secs so about 80 per min. I got a bucket of RODI with a bubbler and heater going. Thinking of doing a fresh water dip but waiting to hear back from you guys. Question about the dip, do I have to slowly bring the salinity up or can it be ”rapid” change?

That respiration rate isn't really elevated. You should try a FW dip. You bring them in and out of it immediately, no acclimation:

Osmotic differential baths
Formalin is not the only irritant that can be used to dislodge parasites during a diagnostic bath. Osmotic differential baths (exposing a marine fish to freshwater, and vice versa) are also effective at loosening parasites. However, there is a greater possibility that the shape of the organism will be disrupted by osmotic pressure to such an extent that proper identification would be difficult. “Freshwater dips” are commonly used to dislodge parasites from the skin of marine fishes. To perform these dips, the fish is captured and placed in a dimly lit container of clean freshwater the same temperature as the aquarium system it came from. Do not use reverse osmosis or deionized water, as there is no buffer capacity and the pH can drop too low. Dechlorinated tap water is suitable unless it is very acidic. The dip container should be covered with a clear material so that the fish is kept from jumping out, yet can still be observed for overt signs of stress. Hold the fish in the freshwater for five minutes to seven minutes. If acute stress is seen, the dip may need to be terminated early. The idea is to dislodge the parasites, without unduly harming the fish. Many aquarists opt to use reverse osmosis water, and adjust the pH to match the aquarium, but this is simply not necessary if the pH of the freshwater is between 7.5 and 8.5. Some advocate to not aerate the water during the dip, but this is incorrect. The water motion from air bubbles can help keep the fish active so that they can be better assessed for stress. Additionally, the air bubbles help dislodge some parasites during the dip process.

Some caveats:
1) Some fish will give extreme reactions to being dipped (hepatus tangs for example), as long as they were swimming well before the dip, it is best to ignore that behavior and continue for a full five minutes.
2) Moribund fish can be dipped, but understand that the acute stress from the dip may prove fatal. The dip water should still be checked for parasites in order to possibly help any remaining fish. Moribund would include any fish that was easy to capture or a fish with a respiration rate of 200+ BPM.
3) Choose the type of net wisely, some fish have spines that will become caught in the netting. Have a pair of scissors handy to cut the net if this happens.
4) Dropping a fish while moving it to and from the dip is common, take care. Some fish have venomous spines, so know that before trying to handle any fish.
5) Fish shaking their heads violently after capture is one cause of mechanical exophthalmos (popeye), so try to gently restrain them in the net while moving them.

Jay

fishguy242 · Mar 5, 2021

hang tight they will come back asap..

musaabi · Mar 5, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
That respiration rate isn't really elevated. You should try a FW dip. You bring them in and out of it immediately, no acclimation:

Osmotic differential baths
Formalin is not the only irritant that can be used to dislodge parasites during a diagnostic bath. Osmotic differential baths (exposing a marine fish to freshwater, and vice versa) are also effective at loosening parasites. However, there is a greater possibility that the shape of the organism will be disrupted by osmotic pressure to such an extent that proper identification would be difficult. “Freshwater dips” are commonly used to dislodge parasites from the skin of marine fishes. To perform these dips, the fish is captured and placed in a dimly lit container of clean freshwater the same temperature as the aquarium system it came from. Do not use reverse osmosis or deionized water, as there is no buffer capacity and the pH can drop too low. Dechlorinated tap water is suitable unless it is very acidic. The dip container should be covered with a clear material so that the fish is kept from jumping out, yet can still be observed for overt signs of stress. Hold the fish in the freshwater for five minutes to seven minutes. If acute stress is seen, the dip may need to be terminated early. The idea is to dislodge the parasites, without unduly harming the fish. Many aquarists opt to use reverse osmosis water, and adjust the pH to match the aquarium, but this is simply not necessary if the pH of the freshwater is between 7.5 and 8.5. Some advocate to not aerate the water during the dip, but this is incorrect. The water motion from air bubbles can help keep the fish active so that they can be better assessed for stress. Additionally, the air bubbles help dislodge some parasites during the dip process.

Some caveats:
1) Some fish will give extreme reactions to being dipped (hepatus tangs for example), as long as they were swimming well before the dip, it is best to ignore that behavior and continue for a full five minutes.
2) Moribund fish can be dipped, but understand that the acute stress from the dip may prove fatal. The dip water should still be checked for parasites in order to possibly help any remaining fish. Moribund would include any fish that was easy to capture or a fish with a respiration rate of 200+ BPM.
3) Choose the type of net wisely, some fish have spines that will become caught in the netting. Have a pair of scissors handy to cut the net if this happens.
4) Dropping a fish while moving it to and from the dip is common, take care. Some fish have venomous spines, so know that before trying to handle any fish.
5) Fish shaking their heads violently after capture is one cause of mechanical exophthalmos (popeye), so try to gently restrain them in the net while moving them.

Jay

fishguy242 said:
hang tight they will come back asap..

Awesome, I really appreciate the quick response, you guys are incredible!

musaabi · Mar 5, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
That respiration rate isn't really elevated. You should try a FW dip. You bring them in and out of it immediately, no acclimation:

Osmotic differential baths
Formalin is not the only irritant that can be used to dislodge parasites during a diagnostic bath. Osmotic differential baths (exposing a marine fish to freshwater, and vice versa) are also effective at loosening parasites. However, there is a greater possibility that the shape of the organism will be disrupted by osmotic pressure to such an extent that proper identification would be difficult. “Freshwater dips” are commonly used to dislodge parasites from the skin of marine fishes. To perform these dips, the fish is captured and placed in a dimly lit container of clean freshwater the same temperature as the aquarium system it came from. Do not use reverse osmosis or deionized water, as there is no buffer capacity and the pH can drop too low. Dechlorinated tap water is suitable unless it is very acidic. The dip container should be covered with a clear material so that the fish is kept from jumping out, yet can still be observed for overt signs of stress. Hold the fish in the freshwater for five minutes to seven minutes. If acute stress is seen, the dip may need to be terminated early. The idea is to dislodge the parasites, without unduly harming the fish. Many aquarists opt to use reverse osmosis water, and adjust the pH to match the aquarium, but this is simply not necessary if the pH of the freshwater is between 7.5 and 8.5. Some advocate to not aerate the water during the dip, but this is incorrect. The water motion from air bubbles can help keep the fish active so that they can be better assessed for stress. Additionally, the air bubbles help dislodge some parasites during the dip process.

Some caveats:
1) Some fish will give extreme reactions to being dipped (hepatus tangs for example), as long as they were swimming well before the dip, it is best to ignore that behavior and continue for a full five minutes.
2) Moribund fish can be dipped, but understand that the acute stress from the dip may prove fatal. The dip water should still be checked for parasites in order to possibly help any remaining fish. Moribund would include any fish that was easy to capture or a fish with a respiration rate of 200+ BPM.
3) Choose the type of net wisely, some fish have spines that will become caught in the netting. Have a pair of scissors handy to cut the net if this happens.
4) Dropping a fish while moving it to and from the dip is common, take care. Some fish have venomous spines, so know that before trying to handle any fish.
5) Fish shaking their heads violently after capture is one cause of mechanical exophthalmos (popeye), so try to gently restrain them in the net while moving them.

Jay

Do you advise adding any supplements to the food to help recovery?

musaabi · Mar 5, 2021

Good news is he won’t let me catch him, bad news is he won’t let me catch him lol

fishguy242 · Mar 5, 2021

try lights off .flickering flashlight

Jay Hemdal · Mar 5, 2021

musaabi said:
Do you advise adding any supplements to the food to help recovery?

It won't hurt if dosed properly, but first thing is to get a primary diagnosis.

Jay

musaabi · Mar 8, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
It won't hurt if dosed properly, but first thing is to get a primary diagnosis.

Jay

Update: I finally caught him but at this point he wasn’t difficult to catch and was basically waiting to die on the sand bed leaning on one side. I immediately scooped him out and set him in my fresh water bath. Granted, I’m sure I picked up some sand and I’m not sure if there’s flukes in the bucket( see picture) when I put him back in the salt water, he sank to the bottom and went to his side but once I kept nudging him he’s swimming around the tank again a bit more active than before. I guess we’ll see what happen in the morning. Here’s some pictures

musaabi · Mar 8, 2021

Here’s a picture from today. He slept in a tight corner and got this new mark. The tail now is showing brown markings and is looking like it’s been nipped at. I’ll try and get a better photo. Thoughts?

fishguy242 · Mar 8, 2021

not liking just following..can you isolate aggressor??

musaabi · Mar 8, 2021

musaabi · Mar 8, 2021

musaabi said:
Here’s a picture from today. He slept in a tight corner and got this new mark. The tail now is showing brown markings and is looking like it’s been nipped at. I’ll try and get a better photo. Thoughts?

Not sure who the aggressor is but I’m thinking it’s the cleaner shrimp. I’m working on a fish trap/acclimation box right now to isolate him