Brightwell phosphate-E

AK_Flint

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I feel I need reassurance and information to just get out there for newer reefers. Not necessarily help. Or if I misunderstood things, i would like it to be pointed out. My reef is about 1 year old and is my second reef tank.

My phosphate was at 1, so I decided to try out Brightwell phosphate-E due to a recent video from BRS stating world wide corals uses it and they will be also. Following the dosing instructions of 1 ml eliminates 1 ppm of phosphate and 1 capful equals 5 ml ( located under basic instructions on back of bottle), I dosed 2 capfuls into my sump directly onto my filter pads (100 micron to a 50 micron) leading to my skimmer (again as directed by bottle).

This clouded the water as the bottle suggested.

30 minutes later my 2 1/2 - 3 inch yellow tang showed distress and swam to the corner of the tank where I was sitting in what I would say, asking for help.

45 minutes later yellow tang was lethargic and at the bottom of tank gasping for air. I began to panic and did everything I could, added an air stone, increased top water surface agitation and utilized an aqua lifter feeding outside air pumping it directly to my pump to chop the bubbles.

2 hours later, yellow tang was dead
I am a hunter and fisherman living in Alaska, what that fish went through before passing was ridiculous as it slowly, and I mean SLOWLY choked to death on this chemical.

This bottle is labeled as “reef safe” however it truly is not in my opinion and what I witnessed. The ingredients are labeled on the bottle as “purified water, proprietary phosphate removers”.....
I would bet it is lanthanum chloride and I am stupid for not thinking before dosing. If this is the case, the little guys gills were coated with that crap preventing proper o2 exchange.

No other sign of distress were found/ noted in any other corals, fish or invertebrates in my reef.

Please, look into this and tell me if I am right or wrong because as a reefer I have one job, keep the critters alive and healthy. I failed. I feel new reefers or anyone with a tang should be warned.

P.S. the Tang was going to go into a larger 300g tank I was going to purchase and build, for you tang police out there. I spent a lot of time with this fish, turning it into a pet as it started to recognize me and come out. Normally it would hide around other people. I emailed Brightwell with my information but nothing has come back to me.

Specs below;
Specific gravity 1.024
Temp 78
PH 8.4
Alk 10
Ammonia undetected
Nitrite undetected
Nitrate 2
Phosphate 1
Calcium 400
Magnesium 1300

ATI essentials dosing on a dosing pump.
60 gallon shallow rimless 48"x24"x12", 20 gallon sump with reef octo classic 150int skimmer
1 tuxedo urchin wearing a large feather duster as a hat
4 blue green chromis not fighting, happily schooling
2 Peppermint shrimp that release eggs occasionally
1 six line wrass being a good boy for now
2 turbo snails
Several WWC Mixed reef corals

My apologies if this is not “proper” and the wall of words as I am still bothered by the loss of Sunny the yellow tang. Plus I am more of a lurker as this is my first thread. Thank you.
 

BigJohnny

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I feel I need reassurance and information to just get out there for newer reefers. Not necessarily help. Or if I misunderstood things, i would like it to be pointed out. My reef is about 1 year old and is my second reef tank.

My phosphate was at 1, so I decided to try out Brightwell phosphate-E due to a recent video from BRS stating world wide corals uses it and they will be also. Following the dosing instructions of 1 ml eliminates 1 ppm of phosphate and 1 capful equals 5 ml ( located under basic instructions on back of bottle), I dosed 2 capfuls into my sump directly onto my filter pads (100 micron to a 50 micron) leading to my skimmer (again as directed by bottle).

This clouded the water as the bottle suggested.

30 minutes later my 2 1/2 - 3 inch yellow tang showed distress and swam to the corner of the tank where I was sitting in what I would say, asking for help.

45 minutes later yellow tang was lethargic and at the bottom of tank gasping for air. I began to panic and did everything I could, added an air stone, increased top water surface agitation and utilized an aqua lifter feeding outside air pumping it directly to my pump to chop the bubbles.

2 hours later, yellow tang was dead
I am a hunter and fisherman living in Alaska, what that fish went through before passing was ridiculous as it slowly, and I mean SLOWLY choked to death on this chemical.

This bottle is labeled as “reef safe” however it truly is not in my opinion and what I witnessed. The ingredients are labeled on the bottle as “purified water, proprietary phosphate removers”.....
I would bet it is lanthanum chloride and I am stupid for not thinking before dosing. If this is the case, the little guys gills were coated with that crap preventing proper o2 exchange.

No other sign of distress were found/ noted in any other corals, fish or invertebrates in my reef.

Please, look into this and tell me if I am right or wrong because as a reefer I have one job, keep the critters alive and healthy. I failed. I feel new reefers or anyone with a tang should be warned.

P.S. the Tang was going to go into a larger 300g tank I was going to purchase and build, for you tang police out there. I spent a lot of time with this fish, turning it into a pet as it started to recognize me and come out. Normally it would hide around other people. I emailed Brightwell with my information but nothing has come back to me.

Specs below;
Specific gravity 1.024
Temp 78
PH 8.4
Alk 10
Ammonia undetected
Nitrite undetected
Nitrate 2
Phosphate 1
Calcium 400
Magnesium 1300

ATI essentials dosing on a dosing pump.
60 gallon shallow rimless 48"x24"x12", 20 gallon sump with reef octo classic 150int skimmer
1 tuxedo urchin wearing a large feather duster as a hat
4 blue green chromis not fighting, happily schooling
2 Peppermint shrimp that release eggs occasionally
1 six line wrass being a good boy for now
2 turbo snails
Several WWC Mixed reef corals

My apologies if this is not “proper” and the wall of words as I am still bothered by the loss of Sunny the yellow tang. Plus I am more of a lurker as this is my first thread. Thank you.
You are 100% correct in that it is lanthanum chloride. The dosing instructions imo are incredibly irresponsible. Lanthanum should be diluted and slow dripped into a 5 micron felt filter sock over several hours. This serves two purposes: prevent unreacted lanthanum and the byproduct precipitate from any reactions that do occur from escaping into the aquarium, and minimize the shock to livestock by not dropping phosphate concentrations too quickly. You should also break it up so that you are only reducing phosphate by about .03-.05 per treatment, with a few days in between treatments, imo.

One problem is that some people can dose LC directly into the tank and have no issues but others can have problems like you. Brightwell has always cared more about money than anything else, imo. They have a lot of useless products with absolutely bogus claims and plenty of others that actually have uses but contain ridiculous and even contradicting instructions.

It appears in this case that they were either unaware of the complications that could occur (fat chance) or they wagered they could sell more product by keeping the instructions as simple as possible and labeling it as "reef safe" because they can get away with it. Pretty disgusting.

Sorry for your troubles.
 

LobsterOfJustice

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Sorry to hear about your experience. I have been using it for a few months, but I dilute several mL into a gallon of water, and then drip it into my rollermat over several hours. It wreaks havoc on alkalinity, so for that reason alone I would take it super slow.
 

BigJohnny

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Sorry to hear about your experience. I have been using it for a few months, but I dilute several mL into a gallon of water, and then drip it into my rollermat over several hours. It wreaks havoc on alkalinity, so for that reason alone I would take it super slow.
Yea I forgot to mention the alkalinity part, good info.
 
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AK_Flint

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Thank you all, I needed to hear that. I guess some product reviews should go out. Further; diluting x ML into y ro/di water and slow dripping into a filter is easy as using x capfuls for dosage directions..... kinda sounds like they just don’t care. Anyway, thanks again!
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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It's odd that every reef reseller that I have seen assumes that every lanthanum ion precipitates with phosphate and not any carbonate. That's how they get the "calculations" they provide, and how they ignore the effect on alkalinity.

Brightwell is not known for good understanding of their chemical products (IMO), but this one seem to extend to most companies that sell it or folks who recommend it.
 

Bayareareefer18

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Also just ordered some after watching the BRS vids. Seems like a cheaper option than GFO. According to WWC they use the product regularly as po4 control

Following
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Also just ordered some after watching the BRS vids. Seems like a cheaper option than GFO. According to WWC they use the product regularly as po4 control

Following

It is certainly cheaper than GFO. It is usually an OK option if you do it correctly. :)
 

Bayareareefer18

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It is certainly cheaper than GFO. It is usually an OK option if you do it correctly. :)
Thanks Randy.

Was working on math yesterday when it arrived lol, trying to calculate ML dosages for every .01 ppm reduction rather than the 1 ppm dosage given

I have found ROWAphos to be very effective but would defitnely seem to be pricey in the long run
 

BigJohnny

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Also just ordered some after watching the BRS vids. Seems like a cheaper option than GFO. According to WWC they use the product regularly as po4 control

Following

I bet wwc takes precautions like 5 micron filter or something else when dosing it. You should call and ask them. I would not just pour it in your tank like the instructions say. They also dont use it regularly, only when their water change schedule isnt enough. I bet they rarely use it.
 

Tim Olson

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I also started using Brightwell's Phosphate-E, after watching the BRS/WWC videos. My hope is to use it to control my phosphates, along with my refugium. I only have 8 days worth of experience with it, but it sure has worked. My plan is to start automatically dosing Phosphate-E into my overflow chamber which leads directly to a filter sock. Although, I'm concerned over what impacts there are if I use it long-term.

Also, I've noticed that Alkalinity has gone up considerably since I started using Phosphate-E. Before I started Alkalinity was running about 8 dKh and now (after 8 days) it's running around 9 dKh. This appears to be the exact opposite of what I've read it should do, so I'm perplexed. Could the reason may be that I use Triton's Core7 Base Elements? My concern is that I'm supposed to target 8.0 dKh with Core7 in order to maintain Calcium, Magnesium and other elements. But the way the data's looking I'll have to reduce the Core7 dose to almost zero to get back to 8.0 dKh, which would mess up the elements.
 

BigJohnny

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I also started using Brightwell's Phosphate-E, after watching the BRS/WWC videos. My hope is to use it to control my phosphates, along with my refugium. I only have 8 days worth of experience with it, but it sure has worked. My plan is to start automatically dosing Phosphate-E into my overflow chamber which leads directly to a filter sock. Although, I'm concerned over what impacts there are if I use it long-term.

Also, I've noticed that Alkalinity has gone up considerably since I started using Phosphate-E. Before I started Alkalinity was running about 8 dKh and now (after 8 days) it's running around 9 dKh. This appears to be the exact opposite of what I've read it should do, so I'm perplexed. Could the reason may be that I use Triton's Core7 Base Elements? My concern is that I'm supposed to target 8.0 dKh with Core7 in order to maintain Calcium, Magnesium and other elements. But the way the data's looking I'll have to reduce the Core7 dose to almost zero to get back to 8.0 dKh, which would mess up the elements.
The most likely explanation is that you are stressing your tank so the corals are not consuming as much alk.
 

Tim Olson

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I agree, that would make sense. Although, my corals seem to doing relatively well. I think it could be that I'm better able to keep phosphates in the right range with Phosphate-E vs. GFO. Before, with just GFO and the refugium, phosphates would fall to zero when I added new GFO and then rise too high as it became depleted, like a rollercoaster. BTW, I have to guess the level of phosphates in the tank, since every Hanna test comes back with 0.00ppm. I try to use one of my corals to tell if the phosphates are right.

Thanks for the help on this, since I'm still a relative newbie in reef keeping at about 4 years and this tank is about 2 years old.
:)
 

Bayareareefer18

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I bet wwc takes precautions like 5 micron filter or something else when dosing it. You should call and ask them. I would not just pour it in your tank like the instructions say. They also dont use it regularly, only when their water change schedule isnt enough. I bet they rarely use it.
According to BRS series wwc uses it as part of regular maintenance. They run filter floss for mechanical filtration.
 

BigJohnny

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According to BRS series wwc uses it as part of regular maintenance. They run filter floss for mechanical filtration.
Not part of their regular maintenance, only when their regular maintenance doesn't keep it below .1, which they said it normally does. They usually rely on skimmer/floss/water changes.
 

happysalt

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Hi can I please ask why you say it wreaks havoc on alkalinity?

Sorry to hear about your experience. I have been using it for a few months, but I dilute several mL into a gallon of water, and then drip it into my rollermat over several hours. It wreaks havoc on alkalinity, so for that reason alone I would take it super slow.
 

BigJohnny

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Hi can I please ask why you say it wreaks havoc on alkalinity?
I know that wasnt directed at me but the answer is that dosing lanthanum chloride also precipitates out lanthanum carbonate, therefore reducing your alkalinity. It doesnt only bind phosphate, so you have to monitor alk closely.
 

Tim Olson

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@happysalt thanks for asking. In the first 6 days of dosing Phosphate-E alkalinity increased from 8.1 dKH to 9.2 (137 to 155 ppm), which is what I found interesting, since it should have decreased. Since then, though, the decrease in alkalinity has been very controllable and almost predictable vs. the ml's of Core7 Base Elements added. I'm thinking @BigJohnny was right, in that it must have stressed the corals and they weren't taking up as much alkalinity. Now, it appears the corals are settling down a bit and/or the tank is stabilizing. I really don't know, though. I've attached a screen print of alkalinity and ml's of Core7, which I measure daily. Any ideas?
Alkalinity ppm with Phosphate-E.jpg
 

happysalt

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I know that wasnt directed at me but the answer is that dosing lanthanum chloride also precipitates out lanthanum carbonate, therefore reducing your alkalinity. It doesnt only bind phosphate, so you have to monitor alk closely.

Hi sorry so then can I get a better understanding as to what to expect as to why @Tim Olson ended up with his alk going up once and then dropping a second time.

I guess I'm very curious because personally replacing an exhausting media in a reactor seems much more intensive than just hooking up Phosphate-E to a dosing head on a dosing pump.
 

Reefahholic

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I prefer Phosphate Rx. I've dosed both Rx and straight LaCI. IMO the Rx is much easier and safer as a maintenance dose for smaller tanks under 300 gallons. Once you go over 300/g you may as well grab a bottle of Seaklear commercial. Otherwise, you will just waste a lot of money.
 
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