Bottled Bacteria, AquaBiomics. Just what's in your bottles

[telegraham]

Just context to my post. I am not against "new" or "improved" but I never saw a need to change or "improve" what is already a simple process. Add water and something live (or not actually) and in most cases, mud puddle or aquarium, nitrification begins.

What I do see is an absolutely insane amount of obsession, time, money and hand wringing about "cycling", which is pretty much the only easy, "no brain" part of setting up a reef aquarium. To me, why buy a bottle of something when I can add a cup of sand or piece of rock form an established system.. or just toss in an earthworm, a dead shrimp, or a piece of living coral.... or just start with all established rock if it can be afforded.

As for the "dosing" part of it... I don't get it and won't until somebody shows me scientifically why I should get it.

Aside from the sacrificial earthworm, I agree with all of this. I started my current with saved rock and sand/rock/media/water from two local reefers who had both performed AB testing. I knew what I was getting. I added fish and coral on Day 1. No uglies and the critters are still happy. And when I get very healthy corals from established systems, I add that water to my system.

This was my latest add from a local -
I keep sharable rock, sand, and media in a 100L cryptic barrel and I AB test my system.

 

[Dburr1014]

The majority of them are probably essentially the same. Just a thought.

And probably different batch to batch.

 

[telegraham]

And probably different batch to batch.

I agree. I tested two batches of MB7, and the results were different. I'm not pointing at MB7, as it could be my sampling or the assay execution, but the ratios of the three main species (all bacillus) were different.

 

[Solo McReefer]

Maybe make a list of the bottled bacteria you want to test, and people can sponsor specific bottles they want to test. The sponsor can donate the the cost of the test + the cost of the bottled bacteria as some bacteria’s cost more than others. You can purchase the bacteria weekly/monthly or something to meet the $50 free shipping on most of aquarium suppliers websites. And post the results on reef2reef for everyone to see.

Donation’s should go to making the hobby better for everyone, not “purchasing” inside information for a small few.

One can do that now, on their own

Buy a test for the 70 bucks

Send in one's own bug juice one have on your shelf

Besides there is no viable way to crowdfund the thing, as you propose

 

[telegraham]

Buy a test for the 70 bucks

I think you mean order six or more for $70 each. Ask me how I know.

 

[telegraham]

Sorry, Jim, I could only find the Eco Balance post. And the Serratia concerns me. How many other bottles have pathogens in them, and what are they?

I contacted Tim's team on 06 May. After following up, they replied on 15 May that "the review and analysis process [will] take weeks to complete."

To date, several weeks later, I've heard nothing. Others have tested the same products and they have received the same results. I personally tested E-B twice from two different bottles.

 

[areefer01]

Oddly (or not) I don't give a hoot what is in the various bottles. I don't use the stuff "daily", let alone ever and likely will never "cycle" a tank again... and If do, I will do it the way I always have.

As I read the post this is what also crossed my mind. Also that I'm finding this hobby strange in that we are so focused on proving labels right or wrong.

 

[Solo McReefer]

Aside from the sacrificial earthworm, I agree with all of this. I started my current with saved rock and sand/rock/media/water from two local reefers who had both performed AB testing. I knew what I was getting. I added fish and coral on Day 1. No uglies and the critters are still happy. And when I get very healthy corals from established systems, I add that water to my system.

This was my latest add from a local -
I keep sharable rock, sand, and media in a 100L cryptic barrel and I AB test my system.

I must admit

That it has taken me over 24 hours to realize that you are not talking about

"A/B testing"

But "AquaBiomics testing"

"How is he A/B testing his tank, what is he A/B testing? He is really really into reefing if he's A/B testing his tank, whatever he's doing."

 

[Solo McReefer]

I contacted Tim's team on 06 May. After following up, they replied on 15 May that "the review and analysis process [will] take weeks to complete."

To date, several weeks later, I've heard nothing. Others have tested the same products and they have received the same results. I personally tested E-B twice from two different bottles.

I have had a patient with CRE Serratia

It is virtually untreatable(only one antibiotic affects it)

If that strain is getting into bottles that people are buying, that is a concern I have that is greater that doing a little experiment on Reef2Reef*

CRE is far worse than just a bug being resistant. The bug creates an enzyme in the body, that "destroys" other antibiotics

"CRE" is just the name we call these bugs now, they are not limited in scope to carbapenum or enterobacteria(or bacteria)

Or it could just be a little of that pink slime from Dr Tim's shower curtain, and mostly harmless

*It's call Dustin Hoffman in a PAPR suit from the CDC concern

 

[Solo McReefer]

As I read the post this is what also crossed my mind. Also that I'm finding this hobby strange in that we are so focused on proving labels right or wrong.

This is obviously not for you, then

Go do something else with your time and money

Carry on

 

[BeanAnimal]

As I read the post this is what also crossed my mind. Also that I'm finding this hobby strange in that we are so focused on proving labels right or wrong.

Ohh I am fine with somebody proving labels right or wrong, although I have little interest in being that somebody. As well, I don't often opt to use things unless the label is proven right.

I stumble into things from time to time though. When the Brightwell XPort PO4 product was first introduce, it was advertised as a proprietary product that was not GFO.... Well it certainly stuck to a magnet and I posted my confusion...I see that that the label now lists it as having GFO.

 

[Solo McReefer]

I think you mean order six or more for $70 each. Ask me how I know.

Well, you were the one I had in mind to do this experiment, not with 6, but 26

I'll Zelle you some money today if it goes toward a couple more bug juice tests

And help pay for the science you have already done on this

 

[Solo McReefer]

Ohh I am fine with somebody proving labels right or wrong,

Figuring out what Vibrant exactly was

Was important

Very important

Of course that was years ago, when I had a tank up

(I mean I've had the tank up when AquaBiomics came out, I just wasn't in the hobby. Essentially, I cured live rock and CUC for 4 years in the tank, some finger corals)

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I have had a patient with CRE Serratia

It is virtually untreatable(only one antibiotic affects it)

If that strain is getting into bottles that people are buying, that is a concern I have that is greater that doing a little experiment on Reef2Reef*

CRE is far worse than just a bug being resistant. The bug creates an enzyme in the body, that "destroys" other antibiotics

"CRE" is just the name we call these bugs now, they are not limited in scope to carbapenum or enterobacteria(or bacteria)

Or it could just be a little of that pink slime from Dr Tim's shower curtain, and mostly harmless

*It's call Dustin Hoffman in a PAPR suit from the CDC concern

That sounds like a rather rare strain...why would you ever expect it to be in aquarium bacteria? Im asking honestly. Can it actually live in marine environments?

 

[telegraham]

Well, you were the one I had in mind to do this experiment, not with 6, but 26

I'll Zelle you some money today if it goes toward a couple more bug juice tests

And help pay for the science you have already done on this

As much as I appreciate your offer, I'd suggest others (maybe you) doing the testing that interests them. I've been offered juice and tests for free, but if I accept from others, then I'm beholden to others' expectations.

Maybe someone can get at the Fritz and other Tim's juice. I bet those would be fun.

 

[areefer01]

Ohh I am fine with somebody proving labels right or wrong, although I have little interest in being that somebody. As well, I don't often opt to use things unless the label is proven right.

There is a lot of market speak and buzz words in this hobby, no doubt. Additive and hardware.

 

[telegraham]

That sounds like a rather rare strain...why would you ever expect it to be in aquarium bacteria? Im asking honestly. Can it actually live in marine environments?

Strain aside, the only difference between MB7 and Eco-Balance is that Eco-Balance includes the species Serratia marcescens (or something that AB testing identifies as S. marcescens).

 

[telegraham]

Ohh I am fine with somebody proving labels right or wrong

That's if the labels identified the contents. Most all reefing bacterial products do not identify contents. PNS ProBio does claim R. palustris, but in the bottle I tested, that species made up only 22% of the bottles' bugs.

 

[Solo McReefer]

That sounds like a rather rare strain...why would you ever expect it to be in aquarium bacteria? Im asking honestly. Can it actually live in marine environments?

Because the CRE trait is transferable easily from one species of bacteria (and fungus) to another species

In layerperson terms, bacteria "eat" other bacteria and aquire traits from them

And Serratia is extremely common, I would bet $2000* it's in your bathroom

At one time, we had 4 different CRE patients at one time, three different bugs, one overlap

You have not heard about it, but you will

Check the CDC website to see what it does, and how prevalent it really is. It's more common that you probably know

It makes Covid Isolation Procedures look like the sniffles

*I would bet $20,000, but I don't have that right now. If I did, I would just fund this experiment myself

 

[areefer01]

That's if the labels identified the contents. Most all reefing bacterial products do not identify contents. PNS ProBio does claim R. palustris, but in the bottle I tested, that species made up only 22% of the bottles' bugs.

I think my direction was how far down the rabbit hole does one want to go? It was not to question how a fellow hobbyist spends their time or money. We should all have a BS or skepticism awareness indicator.

Hope your day is well.