Bottled Bacteria, AquaBiomics. Just what's in your bottles

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are you even getting a logo tee shirt or baseball cap?

Reminds me of something sad that happened a couple of weeks ago. Was mowing the lawn with a toro lawn tractor, and was wearing a swag baseball cap of a pharmaceutical I was heavily involved with long ago, and as I turned a corner, it fell off, got run over, and was mulched. It might have been the last of its kind. lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It depends on the bacteria detected. Some strains like the arcobacter strain associated with BJD is very frequently associated with coral disease - either past, current, or rarely - but it has happened - the detection by aquabiomics actually precedes the visible coral disease outbreak in the tank.
I come back to arcobacter because it's like the posterchild for usefulness of the method regarding pathogens.

Thanks, taricha. I appreciate the answer.

What is it suggested folks do in that case? Its that a competitive bacteria situation?

 

[Dan_P]

Based on whether or not money can be made

No real science is going to be done on these bugs to see if they are "good or bad" for corals in home aquariums

There's no money in it

If any scientists are studying any of these bugs, it's to get a pharmaceutical that causes a 3 month engorgement of human mammary tissue

Reef hobbyists will need to do the science if it is to be done, as dirty as that is.

Aside, I just got 3 more bottles of bugs this morning from BRS. Edit, 4 bottles, accidentally bought a "freshwater" bottle

Looking forwards to the study results.

 

[Dan_P]

Reminds me of something sad that happened a couple of weeks ago. Was mowing the lawn with a toro lawn tractor, and was wearing a swag baseball cap of a pharmaceutical I was heavily involved with long ago, and as I turned a corner, it fell off, got run over, and was mulched. It might have been the last of its kind. lol

LOL! I can see this happening, the look on your face and the explicative.

 

[taricha]

On the flip side, if the answer to actually having a bacterial coral problem is going to be to add some type of competitive bacteria product if a pathogenic species is found, why not just add that bacteria and see if it helps? That's a plan for dinos and cyano already.

The only reasons I can see to do the test are:

1. If the choice of competitive bacteria will depend on the pathogen found. Does it?
2. if the competitive bacteria are very expensive, making a pre dosing test a reasonable screen.
3 if the competitive bacteria might otherwise cause their own problem.

If none of 1-3 are true, what purpose is the identification of the species of bacteria present?

I think we need to jump off that runaway train. That's a waaay hogher to bar to clear than even the modest things "consumes organics" that products seem to have difficulty actually doing in an aquarium.
Never seen convincing evidence that a bacterial product can take a tank that had detected pathogens and make the pathogens retreat on subsequent tests. But there's plenty of evidence that chemical treatments (or simply time and stability) can do this.

I do see a legit rationale for the testing of bacterial products in the way @telegraham has been doing it.
1) does a product at least have interesting bacteria? or is it bacillus I can buy at walgreens? (some are)
2) does the manufacturer have culture control, or are they delivering significant amounts of strains that no one would intentionally have in their bottled product. (That telegraham finds serratia marascens in multiple bottles of one product at different times but in no others says that manufacturer ought to take serious action before selling any more bottles)
3) some products actually instruct the user to pre-activate it by adding a significant carbon source. Other people do it just because they want to. You better have a really good idea what you are adding if you're going to dump in a culture of fast growing bacteria in the middle of exponential phase.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Never seen convincing evidence that a bacterial product can take a tank that had detected pathogens and make the pathogens retreat on subsequent tests. But there's plenty of evidence that chemical treatments (or simply time and stability) can do this.

Antibiotics, or something else?

 

[telegraham]

@Solo McReefer Several more heading out. I think many here value personal experience.

I do not, or don’t, align well with those who don’t.

 

[taricha]

What is it suggested folks do in that case? Its that a competitive bacteria situation?

Antibiotics, or something else?

Arcobacter has been demonstrated to be very susceptible to cipro and oxalinic acid (if you prefer your reef antibiotics to not be human-use).

In a dip situation, stuff like iodine and peroxide are frequently effective against coral diseases that we know are bacterial.

UV also, kinda. Sometimes it slows transmission enough that in combo with pulling corals and dipping, it can beat back a bacterial disease outbreak.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Several more heading out. I think many here value personal experience.

I do not, or don’t, align well with those who don’t.

Not sure what you are referring to, but I have nothing against personal experience as a way to begin to understand complex phenomena.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The service we provide is exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. Which anyone who had spent even a moment looking into it will see.

"Just accept my assertions?" What assertions?

Happy to clear up your not understanding my stated concerns about deciding what is favorable vs not. Perhaps I misunderstood what you mean.

Your web site says

“Develop custom strategies for adjusting your tank’s microbiome”

“These supplements can be used to adjust the microbial community in your tank.”


In what context would you advise strategies for adjusting the microbiome, and aside from avoiding known pathogens, how do you determine what the endpoint of that adjustment should be?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Arcobacter has been demonstrated to be very susceptible to cipro and oxalinic acid (if you prefer your reef antibiotics to not be human-use).

In a dip situation, stuff like iodine and peroxide are frequently effective against coral diseases that we know are bacterial.

UV also, kinda. Sometimes it slows transmission enough that in combo with pulling corals and dipping, it can beat back a bacterial disease outbreak.

Great, thanks.

 

[telegraham]

Not sure what you are referring to, but I have nothing against personal experience as a way to begin to understand complex phenomena.

Have you used AquaBiomics service? I'm not asking to be that guy. The question is more along the lines of that great power/great responsibility thing. Your words carry a lot of old-dude weight. Inevitably, your words will lead to the veritable cornucopia of, "Well RHF says..." bacteria chatter, but that's not your lane, right? When referring to your chemistry work, I've totally said, "RHF says," but I wouldn't look your way for biome assistance. So for a grandpa like me, that personal experience matters.

I've used the service to know what's inside the bottles of juice these companies are peddling, to monitor the progress of my system, to watch the impact of various treatments, and to visualize the differences between my tank/sump and cryptic barrel. The service generates many questions, and those questions offer me the opportunity to interact/learn from others.

As for your original jumping-in point, an example would be the focus on Pelagibacteraceae. It's prominent in what some consider to be healthy tanks. I'm assuming a portion of what Salem is after is understanding if there's a relationship between the various carbon sources and Pelagi (or some other biome ratio shift). Andrew Bouwma has clearly shown that a large water change alters the biome ratio in favor of Pelagi. Eli has helped me quite a bit via email, but he also offers helpful information on his site. https://aquabiomics.com/info/prokaryotes/pelagibacteraceae

Long story short, and speaking from personal experience, no amount of asking questions will prepare you for what you might feel when you're flying supersonic or landing a 767 full-motion sim. I'm not a pilot, but I've done both. I'm not a microbiologist, but I've used Eli's service. That experience allows me to ask better questions of others, including the wizards with whom I work.

 

[arc.flash788]

I personally paid for all the tests and products, and the results are tied to my AquaBiomics account.

Just curious, why are you hesitant to share the data?

 

[telegraham]

Just curious, why are you hesitant to share the data?

I'm not at all hesitant. I'll share when I have everything I want to share.

 

[areefer01]

It is not a secret that Rev gives me a small stipend to me to help provide scientific and chemistry guidance to members at Reef2Reef, as have other reefing sites in the past. That stipend amounts to a very tiny fraction of my income (below 0.1%) and has no bearing on what I post. If the intent is to point out why I might interject myself in threads to help clarify technical points that were not specifically addressed to me, then yes, that is a reasonable suggestion.

And the stipend comes from? Advertising and sponsor dollars.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I have been working at jobs in various industries since 1978, including photographic film, industrial adhesives and coatings,

Interesting, both somewhat areas of interest for me. I ruined the bathroom counters at a young age using it as my darkroom…. Dabbled in formulating my own developers with the help of a few books, long before the internet and when kids could order just about any chemical they wanted. Then in another life placed many millions of pounds of single and plural component polyurethanes…. It’s a shame my actual chem skills are as bad as they are.

 

[BeanAnimal]

people conflate debating the usefulness of an analytical tool with questioning the character of those who sell and use the tool. And if we really think the tool sucks we might let one slip into the other. oops.)

I think this happens quite a bit actually.

 

[Dom]

And the stipend comes from? Advertising and sponsor dollars.

Are you suggesting that Randy's points of view are driven by the advertisers funding his stipend?

 

[areefer01]

Are you suggesting that Randy's points of view are driven by the advertisers funding his stipend?

My original comment about paid staff was related to a list he made and a post about answering questions 53,000 or so times. It isn't for free. I don't know if it changes his point of view or not. I am of the opinion things like that should be made obvious to content readers. Paid, sponsored by, etc. Interesting enough this is something the FTC has been working on for social media and influencers and why you see more paid by, sponsored by in youtube videos now.

 

[Moe K]

Ooooh kaaay. So we have maybe 2 willing to throw into the original idea of finding out?

Or are we going to wait for Telegraham to post some results and credit his efforts?

I feel like I just watched an episode of Big Bang Theory but instead of physists and engineers getting into it we have seen our biologists and chemists debate lol.

I like all of you guys. Great entertainment and I see it all in fun and I guess the divisiveness comes from the passion for all of us to learn more and weed out the disinformation.

I am willing to try what ever. I am more in the engineering side but find this stuff super fascinating to the point of a little regret I didn't go into a different career path. Now I sit in love with my microscope almost having no idea what I am looking at but one step at a time. I might figure out something in a year, couple of years, or decades. I will be there loving it. Many of these questions will be up to just us hobbyists to figure out and if that is the case so be it.