Bottled Bacteria, AquaBiomics. Just what's in your bottles

[Solo McReefer]

I stole an idea from @telegraham

Would there be enough interest for a GiveSendGo, crowdfund, fund to buy all, from A to Zeobak, the commercial bottled bacterias

And have them all analyzed for exactly what is in them, by AquaBiomics?

With the results going to the funders

Couldn't be about $2000 for the bottles and the tests

Say, 20 funders at $100 a donation. Or 40 funders at $50

[I have no idea what the crowdfund slice is, or if the IRS wants a slice, that would be added to the fund if so]

Any interest in such an experiment. Any interest in figuring out which bugs are in the bug juice?

Sorry, Jim, I could only find the Eco Balance post. And the Serratia concerns me. How many other bottles have pathogens in them, and what are they?

Serratia marcscens is not only a coral pathogen, it is a human pathogen as well. That concerns me a fraction more than RTN'ing of my acros

 

[Dan_P]

I stole an idea from @telegraham

Would there be enough interest for a GiveSendGo, crowdfund, fund to buy all, from A to Zeobak, the commercial bottled bacterias

And have them all analyzed for exactly what is in them, by AquaBiomics?

With the results going to the funders

Couldn't be about $2000 for the bottles and the tests

Say, 20 funders at $100 a donation. Or 40 funders at $50

[I have no idea what the crowdfund slice is, or if the IRS wants a slice, that would be added to the fund if so]

Any interest in such an experiment. Any interest in figuring out which bugs are in the bug juice?

Sorry, Jim, I could only find the Eco Balance post. And the Serratia concerns me. How many other bottles have pathogens in them, and what are they?

Serratia marcscens is not only a coral pathogen, it is a human pathogen as well. That concerns me a fraction more than RTN'ing of my acros

When we find out what bacteria are in each product, I am not sure what
I would do with the list.

 

[Moe K]

I would be interested. I can throw down $50 for the cause but need some kind of guarantee the tests will be done and not forgotten. No offense.

While bottled bacterias are not as necessary as salt mixes I would find it super useful information. I have spent a butt load on testing for pathogens and trying to study everything I could find on reef bacteria the past couple of years. The only thing I learned is that most types of bottled bacteria are not marine bacteria and constantly dosing them can potentially be counter productive as many strains in our reef tanks can not be bought. They need to grow naturally and mature and dosing the wrong bottle could just be competing with something that would be super beneficial. At least that is my theory.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

The majority of them are probably essentially the same. Just a thought.

 

[Dan_P]

I would be interested. I can throw down $50 for the cause but need some kind of guarantee the tests will be done and not forgotten. No offense.

While bottled bacterias are not as necessary as salt mixes I would find it super useful information. I have spent a butt load on testing for pathogens and trying to study everything I could find on reef bacteria the past couple of years. The only thing I learned is that most types of bottled bacteria are not marine bacteria and constantly dosing them can potentially be counter productive as many strains in our reef tanks can not be bought. They need to grow naturally and mature and dosing the wrong bottle could just be competing with something that would be super beneficial. At least that is my theory.

What do you think about this idea?

If there is a requirement to constantly dose botttled bacteria, isn’t that an indication that they are not becoming established in the microbiome?

Second idea for evaluation.

There is little or no evidence that the dosed bottled bacteria actually grow in the aquarium, let alone do anything.

 

[Moe K]

I am not a micro biologist so I can only speak from observations. From my understanding there is still so many unknowns.

If there is a requirement to constantly dose botttled bacteria, isn’t that an indication that they are not becoming established in the microbiome?

I am not sure. Has anyone seen a verified biologist say they can't establish themselves in our tanks. I cycled a number of tanks in only a few days with biospira so hard to believe they were not establishing themselves somewhat for some period of time. I also wouldnt say they are requirement, just another tool in the bag. I typically now only dose if I think it is helping solve a specific problem. I guess it would depend on what is in the bottle and that is why I would like to find out more. I have dosed a lot of different brands for things like nutrient control, pathogens, dinos. Some work and some do not at all. As far as coral go there are some from my observations that they like (better PE hours after dosing) and some they really really don't. Also there is absolutely live bacteria in pretty much every brand bottle I bought as I check them under a microscope. I am pretty certain they do something because I have had a certain type when constantly dosed finally drop my nutrient levels and then there is a brand I won't mention that near crashed my cycle. Some helped significantly with dinos and others were kind of useless although constantly recommended.

From my understanding coral consume bacteria and there are scientific papers on certain strains that have antipathogenic properties. How do we bottle those bad boys up and get off the dangerous antibiotic train? Actually I believe hydrospace makes this claim in their PNS pro bio bacteria and I did happen to dose it along with other things (not antibiotics) and my aquabiomics test had 2 less pathogens detected afterwards but still not a great scientific test on my part. I'm just an obsessive reefer.

Personally I am interested in only the premium brands and not the new tank cycling bottled bacteria. Can we find pelagibacteraceae in any of those bottles? From my tests I am always super deficient in that strain and would like to know how much of a difference in tank health would it really make if I can get some. Also would be on the hunt for pseudoalteromnadaceae since I remember reading that paper doing experiments showing it was the one that also had great antipathogenic properties.

I could write a list of questions that I would like to find the answers to. My point is maybe we should find out what is in those bottles and not just brush it off because it doesn't make sense.

 

[Doctorgori]

There is little or no evidence that the dosed bottled bacteria actually grow in the aquarium, let alone do anything.

ROTFLMAO ….exactly

Has anyone seen a verified biologist say they can't establish themselves in our tanks.

Exactly pt 2…
there is soooo much room for snake oil sales in this segment…
One could theoretically bottle up fish poo and skimmer scum. Decant the clearer stuff and legally sell it as “Aquarium bacteria” … heck e.coli theoretically is a candidate (for fw tanks) ….
there isn’t any service promise/agreement on the bottle, so heck they could be selling us anything or nothing particularly useful…
I won’t probably crowdfund anyone “researching” what’s in these bottles, you could tell me anything…I wouldn’t know the difference..
the money is in selling it, whatever it is…

 

[Moe K]

We will make sure to tell you if we do find pooh in the bottle.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I am not a micro biologist so I can only speak from observations. From my understanding there is still so many unknowns.


I am not sure. Has anyone seen a verified biologist say they can't establish themselves in our tanks. I cycled a number of tanks in only a few days with biospira so hard to believe they were not establishing themselves somewhat for some period of time. I also wouldnt say they are requirement, just another tool in the bag. I typically now only dose if I think it is helping solve a specific problem. I guess it would depend on what is in the bottle and that is why I would like to find out more. I have dosed a lot of different brands for things like nutrient control, pathogens, dinos. Some work and some do not at all. As far as coral go there are some from my observations that they like (better PE hours after dosing) and some they really really don't. Also there is absolutely live bacteria in pretty much every brand bottle I bought as I check them under a microscope. I am pretty certain they do something because I have had a certain type when constantly dosed finally drop my nutrient levels and then there is a brand I won't mention that near crashed my cycle. Some helped significantly with dinos and others were kind of useless although constantly recommended.

From my understanding coral consume bacteria and there are scientific papers on certain strains that have antipathogenic properties. How do we bottle those bad boys up and get off the dangerous antibiotic train? Actually I believe hydrospace makes this claim in their PNS pro bio bacteria and I did happen to dose it along with other things (not antibiotics) and my aquabiomics test had 2 less pathogens detected afterwards but still not a great scientific test on my part. I'm just an obsessive reefer.

Personally I am interested in only the premium brands and not the new tank cycling bottled bacteria. Can we find pelagibacteraceae in any of those bottles? From my tests I am always super deficient in that strain and would like to know how much of a difference in tank health would it really make if I can get some. Also would be on the hunt for pseudoalteromnadaceae since I remember reading that paper doing experiments showing it was the one that also had great antipathogenic properties.

I could write a list of questions that I would like to find the answers to. My point is maybe we should find out what is in those bottles and not just brush it off because it doesn't make sense.

I think part of his point is that its all marketing to try to make you spend mkre money because most people dont stop and realize that if the product works, they shouldnt have to keep buying more. Its a borderline scam imo.

 

[fushi]

Maybe make a list of the bottled bacteria you want to test, and people can sponsor specific bottles they want to test. The sponsor can donate the the cost of the test + the cost of the bottled bacteria as some bacteria’s cost more than others. You can purchase the bacteria weekly/monthly or something to meet the $50 free shipping on most of aquarium suppliers websites. And post the results on reef2reef for everyone to see.

Donation’s should go to making the hobby better for everyone, not “purchasing” inside information for a small few.

 

[telegraham]

I stole an idea from @telegraham

Would there be enough interest for a GiveSendGo, crowdfund, fund to buy all, from A to Zeobak, the commercial bottled bacterias

And have them all analyzed for exactly what is in them, by AquaBiomics?

With the results going to the funders

Couldn't be about $2000 for the bottles and the tests

Say, 20 funders at $100 a donation. Or 40 funders at $50

[I have no idea what the crowdfund slice is, or if the IRS wants a slice, that would be added to the fund if so]

Any interest in such an experiment. Any interest in figuring out which bugs are in the bug juice?

Sorry, Jim, I could only find the Eco Balance post. And the Serratia concerns me. How many other bottles have pathogens in them, and what are they?

Serratia marcscens is not only a coral pathogen, it is a human pathogen as well. That concerns me a fraction more than RTN'ing of my acros

Just buy the juice and the tests.

I've personally sent in, and have data for, PNS ProBio, MB7, Eco-Balance, BioDigest, and MB Clean. Also have tests and juice on hand for KZ CyanoClean, KZ ZEObak, One And Only, and Microbe-Lift Special Blend.

Things to consider...you're testing for bugs' DNA. Since I'm not plating the solutions, and sending them out for identification, the bugs in the juice could be dead.

I'll eventually share the data, but until then, I'm willing to answer hobbyist-level questions.

The majority of them are probably essentially the same. Just a thought.

You didn't define "same," but I don't have data that supports that theory.

 

[Doctorgori]

Things to consider...you're testing for bugs' DNA. Since I'm not plating the solutions, and sending them out for identification, the bugs in the juice could be dead.

great point …

Just buy the juice and the tests.

I've personally sent in, and have data for, PNS ProBio, MB7, Eco-Balance, BioDigest, and MB Clean. Also have tests and juice on hand for KZ CyanoClean, KZ ZEObak, One And Only, and Microbe-Lift Special Blend.

How much did all that cost and did you save any of the results?
this could save the collective $$$ and be of great value

 

[BeanAnimal]

Oddly (or not) I don't give a hoot what is in the various bottles. I don't use the stuff "daily", let alone ever and likely will never "cycle" a tank again... and If do, I will do it the way I always have.

If or when somebody demonstrates that there is actual benefit to particular strain(s) in one or more of these, or one or more prove to be a more efficient source of N for coral food (or other bacteria?)... then I will open my ears. Until then, it is just another silly reefing trend that empties pockets.

 

[telegraham]

How much did all that cost and did you save any of the results?

I personally paid for all the tests and products, and the results are tied to my AquaBiomics account.

 

[billyocean]

We will make sure to tell you if we do find pooh in the bottle.

 

[telegraham]

Oddly (or not) I don't give a hoot what is in the various bottles.

That's one of the reasons they are sold.

BTW, I wouldn't cycle a tank with bottled bacteria, and I didn't cycle my current system with bottled bacteria. I used media, sand, rocks, and water from tested sources. To me, tested sources matter. And although this will sound all "well actually," I think you mean species. Data down to the strain level is not provided.

 

[BeanAnimal]

We will make sure to tell you if we do find pooh in the bottle.

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[telegraham]

We will make sure to tell you if we do find pooh in the bottle.

I know which two smell like pooh. Makes me interested in testing this - https://a.co/d/e9tIlQB

 

[BeanAnimal]

That's one of the reasons they are sold.

BTW, I wouldn't cycle a tank with bottled bacteria, and I didn't cycle my current system with bottled bacteria. I used media, sand, rocks, and water from tested sources. To me, tested sources matter.

Just context to my post. I am not against "new" or "improved" but I never saw a need to change or "improve" what is already a simple process. Add water and something live (or not actually) and in most cases, mud puddle or aquarium, nitrification begins.

What I do see is an absolutely insane amount of obsession, time, money and hand wringing about "cycling", which is pretty much the only easy, "no brain" part of setting up a reef aquarium. To me, why buy a bottle of something when I can add a cup of sand or piece of rock form an established system.. or just toss in an earthworm, a dead shrimp, or a piece of living coral.... or just start with all established rock if it can be afforded.

As for the "dosing" part of it... I don't get it and won't until somebody shows me scientifically why I should get it.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I know which two smell like pooh. Makes me interested in testing this - https://a.co/d/e9tIlQB

Could easily just be change water from commercial fishery or process, etc. I (honestly) would not be at all surprised if poo is being used, be it fish or cow.