Bolus dosing

SDchris

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I just watched the video that reference that graph post#445. Interesting Claude mentions that its the initial light "flash" that causes the "table top effect" (see: 54:15). That would make sense, that it's light induced rather then a small alkalinity spike.
If so, I wonder how that behaves long term?
 

GARRIGA

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There is no delay in alk detection using bicarbonate, or carbonate, or hydroxide. There is with formate (AFR) and acetate (Salifert all in one).
Chemistry not my area of comfort yet as I understand it were I to dose formate lights out then bacteria would be allowed to metabolize it until lights on and perhaps then we’d see the full value of alkalinity and have it available during photosynthesis.

Am I in the ball park?
 

twentyleagues

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Chemistry not my area of comfort yet as I understand it were I to dose formate lights out then bacteria would be allowed to metabolize it until lights on and perhaps then we’d see the full value of alkalinity and have it available during photosynthesis.

Am I in the ball park?
I use AFR. I have tried different times of dosing and usually see the resulting alk increase within 24hrs. I am sure that different tanks process the formate at different rates. I didnt see a difference in dosing at lights out versus lights on. This would be interesting to know for sure. In my case I didnt tackle it in the most scientific way possible.
 

Lasse

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My graph shows the pure alkalinity consumption in my tank with know start point (8,6 dKH). Its not the same as calcification consumption of CO3 - There is other processes that consume alkalinity too. in my calculation I have guess that its around 10 % of the total consumption. Can be wrong in that though.

My plan is now to repeat the experiment and if it still looks the same switch my dosing regime. I can´t test the Bolus concept because I use Na2CO3 instead for NaHCO3. I can´t risk a pH peak that I get if I pour in 60 ml pure Na2CO3 in one dose. However - if my consumption during the 15 "dark" hours only is around 25 % of total consumption - adds the 60 ml dose evenly distributed between 21:00 and 9:00 I will start the photoperiod with a high alkalinity and hence mimic one of the parts of the Bolus concept. I will in this test also see how night pH will be affected

I just watched the video that reference that graph post#445. Interesting Claude mentions that its the initial light "flash" that causes the "table top effect" (see: 54:15). That would make sense, that it's light induced rather then a small alkalinity spike.
If so, I wonder how that behaves long term?

It can be tested too - it will be a long summer.......

Sincerely Lasse
 
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GARRIGA

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I use AFR. I have tried different times of dosing and usually see the resulting alk increase within 24hrs. I am sure that different tanks process the formate at different rates. I didnt see a difference in dosing at lights out versus lights on. This would be interesting to know for sure. In my case I didnt tackle it in the most scientific way possible.
That's interesting and at the same time rather concerning.
 

GARRIGA

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It is processed by bacteria in the tank

I can't imagine it processing at the same rate

What kind of bacteria, don't know?
there's also the assumption the corals take the formate directly and why one may never get a true reading and why I'm assuming single dose lights out might provide a better reading before lights on. Also no clue if it requires bacteria or what bacteria and does that then depend on providing adequate surface area for that bacteria. Possible rabbit hole and why I'm just likely dosing and winging it. Wouldn't be the first time I winged that I didn't fully grasp.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Chemistry not my area of comfort yet as I understand it were I to dose formate lights out then bacteria would be allowed to metabolize it until lights on and perhaps then we’d see the full value of alkalinity and have it available during photosynthesis.

Am I in the ball park?
Yes. I am not sure how long formate takes to metabolize in a typical tank, but dosing it sometime early in the night is likely to have it all available by the time lights come on. That would also be true of nearly any other alk supplement.

I’ll note that TM had hypothesized that some of the metabolism takes place on or in corals. I’ve never seen any evidence supplied, and I’m not sure it matters.
 

GARRIGA

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Yes. I am not sure how long formate takes to metabolize in a typical tank, but dosing it sometime early in the night is likely to have it all available by the time lights come on. That would also be true of nearly any other alk supplement.

I’ll note that TM had hypothesized that some of the metabolism takes place on or in corals. I’ve never seen any evidence supplied, and I’m not sure it matters.
Perhaps this thread then has helped me in one sense being I'll now make one single dose lights out of formate. Something easy enough to test and confirm once test tank back up and running.
 

Pod_01

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My graph shows the pure alkalinity consumption in my tank with know start point (8,6 dKH). Its not the same as calcification consumption of CO3 - There is other processes that consume alkalinity too. in my calculation I have guess that its around 10 % of the total consumption. Can be wrong in that though.

My plan is now to repeat the experiment and if it still looks the same switch my dosing regime. I can´t test the Bolus concept because I use Na2CO3 instead for NaHCO3. I can´t risk a pH peak that I get if I pour in 60 ml pure Na2CO3 in one dose. However - if my consumption during the 15 "dark" hours only is around 25 % of total consumption - adds the 60 ml dose evenly distributed between 21:00 and 9:00 I will start the photoperiod with a high alkalinity and hence mimic one of the parts of the Bolus concept. I will in this test also see how night pH will be affected



It can be tested to - it will be a long summer.......

Sincerely Lasse
Lasse,

Just a warning, I been using BOLUS method for 2+ months and while some corals seem ok, my zoas are gone!!!

Before BOLUS:
1721303069749.jpeg


Same spot this morning:
1721303120994.jpeg


Just a heads up.
It may be that my filefish ate them all… I am not sure.

My tank is mix of everything and I let the corals sort it out. But this has been unexpected development. I had those zoas for 6 years and nothing fazed them till BOLUS.

Nemo is ticked off, his home is gone…

Good luck on your test,
 

areefer01

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Just a heads up.
It may be that my filefish ate them all… I am not sure.

Well was the filefish in the display prior to the starting of dosing Bolus? If so, for how long? Time line of when you started one or added should rule that out.
 

Pod_01

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Well was the filefish in the display prior to the starting of dosing Bolus? If so, for how long? Time line of when you started one or added should rule that out.
Filefish 1 year or so, BOLUS 2 months….
This hobby is unpredictable sometimes and cause and effect hard to track.

What I can say the only item I changed, added etc… in the last 3 months is BOLUS and at the start I had those Zoas.
 

areefer01

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Filefish 1 year or so, BOLUS 2 months….
This hobby is unpredictable sometimes and cause and effect hard to track.

What I can say the only item I changed, added etc… in the last 3 months is BOLUS and at the start I had those Zoas.

Only other thing I'd ask is if you had photos day one starting bolus and if the zoa population is healthy, full, etc. Fish are unpredictable but if the zoa population was healthy prior to and the only change bolus then one could suggest the zoa's didn't like it for some reason.
 

MnFish1

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Watching videos of influencers not likely the scientific approach yet you seek to debate with a scientist expecting him to take your approach. Man doesn't watch videos therefore if you are presenting such as evidence then perhaps present the actual footage otherwise you are asking all involved to search the web for every possible connection to your theory. I'm not doing that as that would be akin to asking another to prove Santa doesn't exist because I saw it somewhere and only way to debate me is go seek all the knowledge I have yet dare not point in any specific direction. BTW, don't believe in Santa although no one can prove he doesn't exist :)
Usually, the way I understand how a scientific discussion works is that the person making the claim should have the proof so that others can examine and criticize. IMHO videos are very ineffective in general depending on their length. I would
Never watch a series of videos to tease out one point. Apparently you don’t want to watch the video either to give everyone the rationale contained therein
 

GARRIGA

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Usually, the way I understand how a scientific discussion works is that the person making the claim should have the proof so that others can examine and criticize. IMHO videos are very ineffective in general depending on their length. I would
Never watch a series of videos to tease out one point. Apparently you don’t want to watch the video either to give everyone the rationale contained therein
I'm a keep it simple conditioned to write executive summaries which means paragraph or two. Short and concise. If you need two hours to get a point across then likely marketing hype.

Watched the video and at some point lost interest where it became solely dependent on vendor proprietary product based on claims I've never read before. If I assume I'm being sold snake oil. I'm out. Not saying it's snake oil but I won't know because I stopped caring to find out.

Was hoping this thread simplified and brought facts to a summary but seems like 40 plus pages later I'm just as lost as I was when I tuned the video out.

Not all lost. Going to dose formate lights out. Silver lining from all that reading :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:
 

MnFish1

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We all Use the same equipment. We all have roughly the same measurement errors.

This isn’t going to be explained away by measurement errors.

Mine aren’t the only results showing this. Yes it’s partly stocked, but 600ml Alk solution isn’t going to precipitate away and leave nothing for the corals to grow. They are growing

There were a couple of farms with heavy stocking that first reported it.
There are others who have tried it.

These are just my reading from when I tried it and it isn’t my ineptitude that is producing these measurements. I have credible background.
Rather than error perhaps measurement variability. I notice you cut off your graph which seems to show the pH is starting to peak at a lower level. In any case wouldn’t it make sense to do a
Graph where you show several days of measurements. Then change to bolus for a longer period. Then change back. Your graph only shows a pH rise which I have seen in my apex depending on co2 levels windows, people in the house etc
 

MnFish1

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Saw his vid but don’t remember yet Bolus literally means single dose of medicine being my point and why this likely best find a new name
You make a good point however medications can be Bolused multiple times per day. In reading this thread it’s been my impression that there was one dose per day When the graphs were done?
 

GARRIGA

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You make a good point however medications can be Bolused multiple times per day. In reading this thread it’s been my impression that there was one dose per day When the graphs were done?
I believe it is one single dose just before lights on. Recall 30 minutes prior but don't hold me to that.
 

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