Bolus dosing

[Skep18]

I don’t generally watch videos. Did they change or clarify anything significant?

I can appreciate that. To be honest, I'm not sure. Some of these topics were brought up in the Frag Garage Corals interview so I'm not sure if I heard it first here or in that video. But I updated my original post to include some questions (quoted below) if you find the time to consider them. Hopefully I'm not misquoting Fauna Marin's words. I tried not to.

1. Claims such as pH goes up along with carbonic acid seems counter intuitive to me.

2. "The most important thing is how many alkalinity I need during the day." (27:36 time stamp) I was a little surprised by. I thought I'd heard corals grow at night too. But Idk for sure.

3. I did think it was interesting, the claim the bolus style dosing created halogens that protect the corals from the high light. I'm not sure I know what that means but would love to hear from someone smarter than me.

4. Is it just me or did the sodium carbonate solution beaker with the precipitation fully dissolve into the water when he stirred it a second time? (16:56 time stamp) He claims the particles were simply broken into smaller particle sizes. Again, I'm not educated enough to confirm or refute that claim but would love to hear from others.

(By others I certainly intend to target @Randy Holmes-Farley . Not to exclude others...)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I dont know exactly what is meant by some of those, but for #3 I don’t see what bolus dosing has to do with any type of halogen chemistry. There are no halogens in sodium bicarbonate, nor am I aware of any relationship between alk or bicarbonate and any means of protecting corals with any halogen chemistry.

 

[Pod_01]

I can appreciate that. To be honest, I'm not sure. Some of these topics were brought up in the Frag Garage Corals interview so I'm not sure if I heard it first here or in that video. But I updated my original post to include some questions (quoted below) if you find the time to consider them. Hopefully I'm not misquoting Fauna Marin's words. I tried not to.

I believe item 3 relates to FM Balling light method.
When you mix the Alk portion you add what they refer to as Trace3. You adjust Trace3 based on your ICP results.

Trace 3 contains:

Maybe even other things…

So as you dose Alk you also add these trace elements…

My interpretation… FM perhaps should clarify.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok, so it’s not a bolus alk dosing effect. That's fine. I don’t know if it’s true or useful, but bromide does have the ability to chemically react with highly oxidizing species to make other highly oxidizing species that may have different toxicity.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I never really looked into their products or followed any of this, but the more I see, the more I shake my head. I don’t know what claims are true and what claims are absolute hokum but I am convinced there is a mix of both.

 

[Skep18]

I never really looked into their products or followed any of this, but the more I see, the more I shake my head. I don’t know what claims are true and what claims are absolute hokum but I am convinced there is a mix of both.

Unfortunately I get the same feeling... I always wish they would technically explain/support their claims but the best I hear is they have professional chemists, etc. and that its all checked out to be factual. "Trust me bro." I've seen some plots but hard to tell if theres a correlation or if its just a fish tank... with normal parameters.

 

[elysics]

I believe item 3 relates to FM Balling light method.
When you mix the Alk portion you add what they refer to as Trace3. You adjust Trace3 based on your ICP results.

Trace 3 contains:

Maybe even other things…

So as you dose Alk you also add these trace elements…

My interpretation… FM perhaps should clarify.

He mentioned that in the very first video, supposedly these traces protect the corals from the stress of the 120% light period (assuming your previous 100% was already the optimum level without that effect and not too little) when they are dosed all at once for the day.

Hard to say whether that's an actual side effect they noticed or a nice theory that would mean that their product/way of mixing things be theoretically better than others

 

[BeanAnimal]

He mentioned that in the very first video, supposedly these traces protect the corals from the stress of the 120% light period (assuming your previous 100% was already the optimum level without that effect and not too little) when they are dosed all at once for the day.

Hard to say whether that's an actual side effect they noticed or a nice theory that would mean that their product/way of mixing things be theoretically better than others

He says it, his followers “observe” it and there is the science?

 

[Pod_01]

He mentioned that in the very first video, supposedly these traces protect the corals from the stress of the 120% light period (assuming your previous 100% was already the optimum level without that effect and not too little) when they are dosed all at once for the day.

Hard to say whether that's an actual side effect they noticed or a nice theory that would mean that their product/way of mixing things be theoretically better than others

FM/ Claude is big on the halogens.

I suspect the explanations are based on observations and experience.

There may be benefits to having halogens available before the lights are on.
Unfortunately it is how his system works, by adding trace 3 to Kh and following Bolus you will end up with this scenario regardless if it is beneficial or not.
Perhaps FM could state from the observations dosing halogens in the morning it is not detriment…

 

[BeanAnimal]

I suspect the explanations are based on observations and experience.

I observe that when I cook bacon in the morning my tank thrives. The oxidization of lipids, meat and iron releases free radicals. The free radicals that contain both RNS and ROS types that become airborne (convection) and then settle on the tank. From there they are consumed by the fauna and help to break down pathogens and trigger the well documented mitogenic response. Doing this in the evening reduces the effect, as the convective currents in the home are not sufficient transport, as the home is cooler in the evenings. Video to come!

I call it "bacon dosing" and science and my experience confirm the benefits to both the fish and me. Now I am not trying ot "sell" a product, but if you don't use my homemade "artisanal applewood smoke bacon" then you won't see the effect. There may be other products, but my bacon has a very specific blend of nitrates and sugars that help release those free radicals (Maillard reaction) during the frying process.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FM/ Claude is big on the halogens.

I suspect the explanations are based on observations and experience.

There may be benefits to having halogens available before the lights are on.
Unfortunately it is how his system works, by adding trace 3 to Kh and following Bolus you will end up with this scenario regardless if it is beneficial or not.
Perhaps FM could state from the observations dosing halogens in the morning it is not detriment…

There’s certainly nothing wrong with maintaining halogens (bromide and maybe iodide) at natural levels for this purpose, or any other. Fluoride almost certainly has no such effect since it cannot be readily oxidized in seawater. Halogens do not come and go instantly and to say there's a benefit adding it just before lights on seems to stretched credulity since none of them will be greatly depleted in a few hours. If you think they are useful maintain them.

FWIW, normal 1% daily water changes and no dosing of bromide resulted in bromide in my reef tank at well above natural levels (101 ppm via Triton ICP vs 62 ppm for 35 ppt seawater), so I really would not want to have been dosing more.

 

[Garf]

Looks like Fauna Marin did an update video on their Bolus Method. Just posting as it seems relevant to this discussion. This subject has caught my interest as of lately for a number of reasons. Just eating popcorn and watching. Always interested in the perspectives of those in this forum.


EDIT: Just finished watching it. I had previously watched the whole interview on this subject with Adam from Frag Garage Corals. Not sure how to ask the questions but some points caught my attention.

1. Claims such as pH goes up along with carbonic acid seems counter intuitive to me.

2. "The most important thing is how many alkalinity I need during the day." (27:36 time stamp) I was a little surprised by. I thought I'd heard corals grow at night too. But Idk for sure.

3. I did think it was interesting, the claim the bolus style dosing created halogens that protect the corals from the high light. I'm not sure I know what that means but would love to hear from someone smarter than me.

4. Is it just me or did the sodium carbonate solution beaker with the precipitation fully dissolve into the water when he stirred it a second time? (16:56 time stamp) He claims the particles were simply broken into smaller particle sizes. Again, I'm not educated enough to confirm or refute that claim but would love to hear from others.

(By others I certainly intend to target @Randy Holmes-Farley . Not to exclude others...)

I want one of those massive beakers.

 

[Pod_01]

FWIW, normal 1% daily water changes and no dosing of bromide resulted in bromide in my reef tank at well above natural levels (101 ppm via Triton ICP vs 62 ppm for 35 ppt seawater), so I really would not want to have been dosing more

That is interesting, my Br always trends down so I do add extra maybe 2x a year. Observations from my single tank only. Not sure where the Br is going.

Also over the past few years i observed that if Br gets on the low side 60ppm I start to get undesirable things in tank like Dino’s… This is also when few other of these halogen’s are on the low side like I and F. This does happen when NO3 and PO4 are acceptable (not zero or even close to zero). Just my observation and may not be related.

Thank you Randy for the additional information on halogens. The information is always educational and appreciated.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That is interesting, my Br always trends down so I do add extra maybe 2x a year. Observations from my single tank only. Not sure where the Br is going.

Also over the past few years i observed that if Br gets on the low side 60ppm I start to get undesirable things in tank like Dino’s… This is also when few other of these halogen’s are on the low side like I and F. This does happen when NO3 and PO4 are acceptable (not zero or even close to zero). Just my observation and may not be related.

Thank you Randy for the additional information on halogens. The information is always educational and appreciated.

FWIW, algae take up a fair amount of bromide.

The Halogenated Metabolism of Brown Algae (Phaeophyta), Its Biological Importance and Its Environmental Significance

The Halogenated Metabolism of Brown Algae (Phaeophyta), Its Biological Importance and Its Environmental Significance

Brown algae represent a major component of littoral and sublittoral zones in temperate and subtropical ecosystems. An essential adaptive feature of this independent eukaryotic lineage is the ability to couple oxidative reactions resulting from exposure ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Hans-Werner]

FWIW, normal 1% daily water changes and no dosing of bromide resulted in bromide in my reef tank at well above natural levels (101 ppm via Triton ICP vs 62 ppm for 35 ppt seawater), so I really would not want to have been dosing more.

How does this work? You take water with 62 ppm Br out and you fill water with 62 ppm Br in. How do you get to 101 ppm Br? That should be impossible with saltwater of 62 ppm Br.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How does this work? You take water with 62 ppm Br out and you fill water with 62 ppm Br in. How do you get to 101 ppm Br? That should be impossible with saltwater of 62 ppm Br.

I'm not sure, or even sure if it was an accurate measurement by Triton. My comment when I received the data was:

Bromine (Br; bromide). The bromide is elevated. I’m not sure why, but it doesn’t really worry me. It might be from the salt mix, or from foods. Except when using ozone, bromide is not a toxin to worry too much about. When exposed to ozone, it becomes bromate, which is more toxic, but that is really a concern for how to use ozone and the concern isn’t changed much by having bromide at 2x the natural level.

My Triton Testing Results: By Randy Holmes-Farley - REEFEDITION

Recently, Triton GmbH in Germany has initiated a method of testing many ions at once for a single price. In the US, that service is coordinated by Unique Corals. For $49 they will send you a couple of tubes to collect a tank water sample, and a prepaid mailer to send the sample back to them...

www.reefedition.com

 

[Hans-Werner]

I'm not sure, or even sure if it was an accurate measurement by Triton. My comment when I received the data was:

Bromine (Br; bromide). The bromide is elevated. I’m not sure why, but it doesn’t really worry me. It might be from the salt mix, or from foods. Except when using ozone, bromide is not a toxin to worry too much about. When exposed to ozone, it becomes bromate, which is more toxic, but that is really a concern for how to use ozone and the concern isn’t changed much by having bromide at 2x the natural level.

My Triton Testing Results: By Randy Holmes-Farley - REEFEDITION

Recently, Triton GmbH in Germany has initiated a method of testing many ions at once for a single price. In the US, that service is coordinated by Unique Corals. For $49 they will send you a couple of tubes to collect a tank water sample, and a prepaid mailer to send the sample back to them...

www.reefedition.com

Ok, unclarified source.

I already wondered whether concentrations of chemical elements can "grow". Sounded a bit like alchemy to me.

 

[elysics]

Ok, unclarified source.

I already wondered whether concentrations of chemical elements can "grow". Sounded a bit like alchemy to me.

Spontaneous nuclear fusion in our tanks? The key to alchemy has been hiding in corals all along it seems haha

 

[BeanAnimal]

Sounded a bit like alchemy to me.

Yes it does!


....Oh what Randy said, not all of the wonderful phenomenon of bolus...

never mind.

 

[Christoph]

How does this work? You take water with 62 ppm Br out and you fill water with 62 ppm Br in. How do you get to 101 ppm Br? That should be impossible with saltwater of 62 ppm Br.

Typically high Levels of bromide impurity in many Magnesium salts