Bolus dosing

[Florian_W]

Well, Oceamo and ATI do the same. With the former however, they can help you adjust your recipes if needed (like, adding more of a certain trace), or if you have a massive tank where you can't set it straight with a chunky water change, you can get an 'all in 1 or 2 bottles, dosed over a month, to try and set it straight' tailored JUST for you. Instead of buying 15 different supplemental bottles.

If you get an ICP MS from oceamo you do get the insight into those parameter the OES can’t really detect
So to say oceamo is doing the same as FM is wrong
In my opinion oceamo is the only ICP worth getting because they do not guess but can say for sure where those parameters are

 

[Carni_Vora]

Well, Oceamo and ATI do the same. With the former however, they can help you adjust your recipes if needed (like, adding more of a certain trace), or if you have a massive tank where you can't set it straight with a chunky water change, you can get an 'all in 1 or 2 bottles, dosed over a month, to try and set it straight' tailored JUST for you. Instead of buying 15 different supplemental bottles.

Just as what FM is now offering with reef pills?

 

[Florian_W]

Just as what FM is now offering with reef pills?

Yes just copied what oceamo is offering for years now…

 

[Superlightman]

Thanks for looking into this Randy.

I have to say, many many years ago i had a 120L tank with a lot of easy sps corals, and i used to dose my balling fluids by hand once a day. That was working fine back then, and it could work out fine now as well.
However, i think i mainly dosed later in the day when i got home, rather than in the morning.

What i don't understand, is why FM would put their name on the line for this, as i don't really see any new products being pushed to market? I mean, they probably know very well a lot of people are using standard unbranded balling salts supplemented with all different brands of trace element dosing. Which would work just the same as when using FM branded balling salts, so what is there really to gain here for them?

Following along with great interest!

Seriously, you don't think that there is nothing commercial behind it? He is clearly trying to win customers from his competitors. the seawater market is doing badly in Germany, the only thing left to do is to take customers away
from others and develop products that you don't believe in yourself, like plankton, lime water... because it sells( not long time he made videos about it claiming it is crap and now he launches the products) If he says Bolus is the best for the tanks and says that it isn't like that with other methods and explains that it only works with his product, do you think it isn't advertising, a way to sell his balling?! If he had nothing to gain from it, would he protect the name, finance HTU, video, marketing? There is nothing bad about it and the method may be good, but don't believe that there is no sales purpose behind it...

 

[elysics]

Seriously, you don't think that there is nothing commercial behind it? He is clearly trying to win customers from his competitors. the seawater market is doing badly in Germany, the only thing left to do is to take customers away
from others and develop products that you don't believe in yourself, like plankton, lime water... because it sells( not long time he made videos about it claiming it is crap and now he launches the products) If he says Bolus is the best for the tanks and says that it isn't like that with other methods and explains that it only works with his product, do you think it isn't advertising, a way to sell his balling?! If he had nothing to gain from it, would he protect the name, finance HTU, video, marketing? There is nothing bad about it and the method may be good, but don't believe that there is no sales purpose behind it...

From the phrasing that is used there seems to be some animosity that other alkalinity supplements can be higher concentrated in smaller bottles. Maybe that's the marketing angle here.

For the lime water thing, funnily enough he admits that, pretty much says that he thinks it's outdated but their american customers really want to buy it and the customer is always right

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For the lime water thing, funnily enough he admits that, pretty much says that he thinks it's outdated but their american customers really want to buy it and the customer is always right

In this case that phrase takes on more than the usual meaning. lol

 

[HiveTyrant]

Seawater is not doing as well as it did during the pandemic, that is for sure, especially in Germany. Not as much free income for many anymore, when people got some of that 'tropical seaside vacation' feel into their home, skyrocketing cost of living and especially energy, partially due to factors not appropriate for this forum.

The thing is, people like Claude especially are still pushing for that 350-500 Liters and up crowd, and yes, that is in decline, especially the high maintenance (especially when it comes to Alk and Calcium) SPS and LPS large tanks.
Meanwhile, a bunch of smaller, not as international coral breeders see a decreased demand for high level SPS, and a return to LPS especially, Softies - heck, there are a bunch of easy as pie to grow LPS that basically pretend to be SPS, unless you catch them with their wavy, 1 inch translucient polyps out, sweeping the immediate surrounding.
This, or the emerging 'AIO' or 'Nano Reefing' is popular, but you don't see people like Claude advertising for that, as those don't make a good market for a few dozen bottles or jars to put into your cabinet. 25 Gallon AIO Tank, water parameters out of whack, and you identified the issue? No need for fixing with bottles, you do a 30% WC, done. Not cheap in regards to salt, but you can very much straighten out a TON of issues with that in one go.

 

[BavarianReefer]

Just as what FM is now offering with reef pills?

Exactly. Marketing again. Other brands are doing this since a few years but in a quiet smooth way. Faunas marketing is always like they invented the wheel.

 

[MrStoffel]

Seriously, you don't think that there is nothing commercial behind it? He is clearly trying to win customers from his competitors. the seawater market is doing badly in Germany, the only thing left to do is to take customers away
from others and develop products that you don't believe in yourself, like plankton, lime water... because it sells( not long time he made videos about it claiming it is crap and now he launches the products) If he says Bolus is the best for the tanks and says that it isn't like that with other methods and explains that it only works with his product, do you think it isn't advertising, a way to sell his balling?! If he had nothing to gain from it, would he protect the name, finance HTU, video, marketing? There is nothing bad about it and the method may be good, but don't believe that there is no sales purpose behind it...

Sure i believe there is a commercial incentive here. But as far as i could tell i saw no new product being promoted, as is mostly the case.
As others mentioned, he is off course making people look towards his brand by making some fuzz.
But that could very well blow up in his face in this case, if there is truly no correct scientific reasoning behind it.

 

[MrStoffel]

Seawater is not doing as well as it did during the pandemic, that is for sure, especially in Germany. Not as much free income for many anymore, when people got some of that 'tropical seaside vacation' feel into their home, skyrocketing cost of living and especially energy, partially due to factors not appropriate for this forum.

The thing is, people like Claude especially are still pushing for that 350-500 Liters and up crowd, and yes, that is in decline, especially the high maintenance (especially when it comes to Alk and Calcium) SPS and LPS large tanks.
Meanwhile, a bunch of smaller, not as international coral breeders see a decreased demand for high level SPS, and a return to LPS especially, Softies - heck, there are a bunch of easy as pie to grow LPS that basically pretend to be SPS, unless you catch them with their wavy, 1 inch translucient polyps out, sweeping the immediate surrounding.
This, or the emerging 'AIO' or 'Nano Reefing' is popular, but you don't see people like Claude advertising for that, as those don't make a good market for a few dozen bottles or jars to put into your cabinet. 25 Gallon AIO Tank, water parameters out of whack, and you identified the issue? No need for fixing with bottles, you do a 30% WC, done. Not cheap in regards to salt, but you can very much straighten out a TON of issues with that in one go.

I see a similar trend in Belgium and the Netherlands.
My tank isnt all that big, but filled with SPS. I have to admit i have considered scaling down or switching to LPS/softies reef to lower the costs somewhat.
I was always able to sell cuttings to cover the costs of my dosing products, but lately i see a drastically reduced interest. In most LFS i go to, i am often the only customer, whereas before i had to wait in line to be able to get someone to handle my order. Hope the interest picks up again soon

 

[Florian_W]

Sure i believe there is a commercial incentive here. But as far as i could tell i saw no new product being promoted, as is mostly the case.
As others mentioned, he is off course making people look towards his brand by making some fuzz.
But that could very well blow up in his face in this case, if there is truly no correct scientific reasoning behind it.

I would definitely say only FM products should be used

 

[MrStoffel]

I would definitely say only FM products should be used

Yes and no, a starting reefer may not know the salts are freely available on the market and are nothing special.
However, after a while everybody discovers this sooner or later. I think its the biggest public secret in the hobby
Off course they are trying to push people away from other "Method" brands using different chemicals.

 

[DutchReefer420]

They never said you need to use FM products…

They only state you need to use a bicarbonate based balling system and nothing else!! Also this is most commenly used in Europe at least the brands i know of!

Offcourse they say you CAN use FM products for this lol
Would be strange if FM starts to advertise for other brands right?????

also they are not targeting beginning reefers!!

If the only claim being made here is the advertisment from FM for there own products, I think is not totally fair because this is totally up to the reefer him self to choose what brands to use..

Also this method seems to give major improvements in health of the system!!
After years of using 2part additves

 

[timeless]

They never said you need to use FM products…

They only state you need to use a bicarbonate based balling system and nothing else!! Also this is most commenly used in Europe at least the brands i know of!

Offcourse they say you CAN use FM products for this lol
Would be strange if FM starts to advertise for other brands right?????

also they are not targeting beginning reefers!!

If the only claim being made here is the advertisment from FM for there own products, I think is not totally fair because this is totally up to the reefer him self to choose what brands to use..

Also this method seems to give major improvements in health of the system!!
After years of using 2part additves

They never said you need to use FM products…

They only state you need to use a bicarbonate based balling system and nothing else!! Also this is most commenly used in Europe at least the brands i know of!

Offcourse they say you CAN use FM products for this lol
Would be strange if FM starts to advertise for other brands right?????

also they are not targeting beginning reefers!!

If the only claim being made here is the advertisment from FM for there own products, I think is not totally fair because this is totally up to the reefer him self to choose what brands to use..

Also this method seems to give major improvements in health of the system!!
After years of using 2part additves

It's not about the method itself, it's about the statements made and the information that is not chemically correct. This information is tailored to Fauna Marin for marketing purposes in order to displace other competitors. They are playing on the fears of users who use other products, such as sodium carbonate or sodium hydroxide, that they will destroy the chemical balance.

Even competitors like Arka Aquatics who use sodium bicarbonate are being criticized, as you can see here in this comment:

 

[ReeferZ1227]

I havent had a chance to catch up on this thread, but when i see some juice like this:

I am shocked that a company puts out such utterly and grossly incorrect ideas. They need to send someone at the company to study chemistry before spouting nonsense.

I’m on a phone now and it’s hard to write long passages, but surely such misleading info deserves a long and detailed response.

I get a tingle in my tummy.

I saw a post regarding this in a different forum. Is there any data to support this method? Did they measure new coral mass over a period of time against a control/conventional method?

I just photographed a milli throw out several branches roughly an inch in 30 days exactly. These assertions should be substantiated with basic data/photos when pushing an entire methodology/product base.

FWIW ive only ever used a kalk/AFR combo for alk. My alk is stable and my pH has been trending upwards (higher lows, relatively equal highs) for about a year now.

Why does my "buffer system" need a different approach?

hey! i can easily answer that, it´s all about marketing... the owner is very aware of that to do to stay in the "news"
and here in Germany / Austria he is a big name and people follow most of the things he says and does like it´s the greatest thing since sliced bread!

also following along with great interest

Dont forget the margins on trace elements. A half a penny of manganese will supplement an avg reef for god knows how long.

 

[Florian_W]

Dont fdisciorget the margins on trace elements. A half a penny of manganese will supplement an avg reef for god knows how long.

true
FM is the king of selling the little bottles and here in Germany you have posts of people been proud of having a cabinett full with those...
as i said... sometimes it´s like Claude is the pope... can do or say no wrong and the disciples follow...

 

[HiveTyrant]

true
FM is the king of selling the little bottles and here in Germany you have posts of people been proud of having a cabinett full with those...
as i said... sometimes it´s like Claude is the pope... can do or say no wrong and the disciples follow...

TBH, most brands seem to have the 'little bottles' for sale, with individual elements. But so far, the only one who makes a custom 'only need 1 bottle to supplement' based on ICP is Oceamo.

 

[Superlightman]

They never said you need to use FM products…

They only state you need to use a bicarbonate based balling system and nothing else!! Also this is most commenly used in Europe at least the brands i know of!

Offcourse they say you CAN use FM products for this lol
Would be strange if FM starts to advertise for other brands right?????

also they are not targeting beginning reefers!!

If the only claim being made here is the advertisment from FM for there own products, I think is not totally fair because this is totally up to the reefer him self to choose what brands to use..

Also this method seems to give major improvements in health of the system!!
After years of using 2part additves

No he criticized also other bicarbonate system and says his product contains other necessary things for the method.
What is strange also his product is called carbonate mix, but he said it contains only bicarbonate.
His product is also more concentrate that classic balling, which is strange then if he really has just bicarbonate.
Also, if his system is really better we don't know there are just claim from a few reefers from the fauna Marin club, even no before and after pictures, nothing and the tanks I saw were only beginner thanks or not particularly great one.
But I believe it could improve his method has it increase the PH. But does it come from the one time dosing ? I'm skeptical has alone if you increase the light and the KH for sure your PH goes up and so does the coral growth. But maybe it really does something ? Nothing would be bad also if he didn't bash the other products on the market with wrong claims. He should have just given his observations without bashing others.

 

[JohannesFFM]

The question is does it work. A lot of people in germany tested this method and it does. You can see it by going in to german forums or just in the yt comment section of the videos from fm. not everybody uses dosing pumps. there are people that dose once a day by hand. one of the biggest public reef tanks in germany is dosing kh only once in the morning since 7 years and they have phenomal growth. its the nature museum in karlsruhe. there are many videos on yt where you can see their reef progessing. so imho its a nother discussion should it work, because it does. before attacking the idea maybee give it a chance instead of stating it shouldnt work because xyz.

 

[SoNap]

The Vivarium in Karlruhe that you have mentioned is even using some kind of an extended Bolus version.
They are dosing KH even only all three days. And if you have the chance to stay in front of this absolute gorgeous reef tank you will be speechless.