Bacterial attack on acropora?

[kimros1986]

Recently I've had some tissue necrosis on a couple of of my acroporas. One tenuis rainbow and one frogskin.

I'm baffled on why this happens. The frogskin seems to be stn and the tenuis seems to be something else, bacterial attack?
A few months ago I could see a couple of dead spots on the base of the tenuis. It has been in my tank for almost a year, from a tiny frag. I decided to cut the frag off (without any dead spots) and move it to another place. It started to encrust at the base real good. But a week ago the tissue started receding again.
The frogskin started to stn around the same time. It sat close to the tenuis' old spot. I tried putting some glue at the dead spot but it kept going. This frogskin has been with me a couple of years and really grown like weed.
None of the stn area is shared.

Also, many of the enrusting frags does not have tissue close to the expanding edge. Like the picture of my acropora SSC below.
Is this normal? Could it be due to the "buffered" high pH? Calcification has accelerated but tissue can't keep up

Have a look at the pictures below.

I have a reefer 350. 3 mp40s for flow. I do kalkwasser and 2part dosing (with trace elements). I have a refugium with chaeto. Carbon reactor, roller filter, skimmer, ozon. Alkatronic, dosetronic, mastertronic, apex.
Lighting 2 x hydra 52hd, 2 t5 (1 actinic 1 coral plus), 2 x 90 cm orphek or3 blue plus led strip. Par varies from 200 at the bottom to max 450 at top of the reef.

My Dkh is stable at around 8,5.
Ca 420
Mg 1330
Po4 around 0,06
No3 between 5-8
Ph fluctuates 8,2-8,4 (also co2-scrubber on skimmer)
Potassium 390
Iodine 0,05

I do icp every month. Most often heavy metals are low (guessing chaeto consumption). But nothing really concerning. Aluminium and silicate has been in the high range but far from critical. I'm waiting for a new icp result, should come early next week.

I've started reading a bit about bacterial attacks and someone advised me to check up on Triton STN-X.

If anyone has any experience on anything that I've mentioned in this post, please share.

 

[Huskymaniac]

Ever dose flucanazole in your tank?

 

[kimros1986]

Ever dose flucanazole in your tank?

Yes actually I have!
In middle of February, one dose of flux rx.
Treatment worked well at the time, still no visible bryopsis and no casualties during or (so far) after treatment
But let's hear what you might got?

 

[Huskymaniac]

Yes actually I have!
In middle of February, one dose of flux rx.
Treatment worked well at the time, still no visible bryopsis and no casualties during or (so far) after treatment
But let's hear what you might got?

Flucanazole triggered so.ethkng similar in my tank. Caused a bacterial rtn that wiped out about 80% of the acros in my tank. Tank has never been the same and anything that showed signs of necrosis never recovered. Not even in new tanks. My money is on the flucanazole. I would junk anything that looks sick. Would then look at getting some fresh real live rock to reseed tank with new bacteria.

 

[kimros1986]

Flucanazole triggered so.ethkng similar in my tank. Caused a bacterial rtn that wiped out about 80% of the acros in my tank. Tank has never been the same and anything that showed signs of necrosis never recovered. Not even in new tanks. My money is on the flucanazole. I would junk anything that looks sick. Would then look at getting some fresh real live rock to reseed tank with new bacteria.

I've started with microbe lift special blend now. Just a long shot really...

But how quickly did the stn start in your tank after treatment?
It would be a logic causality, but it had some delay for me in that case... It would then have been 6 months after fluco treatment that stn started on these two acroporas.

I sold another bigger colony of the frogskin earlier this spring. Got an update on it today and that one is still growing without any tissue necrosis.

 

[Huskymaniac]

I've started with microbe lift special blend now. Just a long shot really...

But how quickly did the stn start in your tank after treatment?
It would be a logic causality, but it had some delay for me in that case... It would then have been 6 months after fluco treatment that stn started on these two acroporas.

I sold another bigger colony of the frogskin earlier this spring. Got an update on it today and that one is still growing without any tissue necrosis.

Some immediate and some delayed. I am 9 months post treatment and still having issues.

 

[kimros1986]

Some immediate and some delayed. I am 9 months post treatment and still having issues.

Ok, that sucks have you been reseeding with any kind of bacteria? Any suggestions ??

 

[Huskymaniac]

Ok, that sucks have you been reseeding with any kind of bacteria? Any suggestions ??

No. I am curing some fresh lr now in a garbage can. Last ditch effort before I tear the tank down and start all over.

 

[kimros1986]

Here is another example, acropora valida frag, similar to the tenuis. A pale spot on the upside of the base.
It just doesn't look like typical stn to me. Am I wrong?

 

[Semisonyx]

If it is bacterial, you’ll need to outcompete it by dosing beneficial bacteria. I would dose MB7 or Prodibio or the like. Just make sure to keep your nutrients from bottoming out.

 

[kimros1986]

If it is bacterial, you’ll need to outcompete it by dosing beneficial bacteria. I would dose MB7 or Prodibio or the like. Just make sure to keep your nutrients from bottoming out.

Is there a reliable way to determine if it is bacterial? Or is there typical symptoms to look for? This really is a blind spot for me and I will need to dig down in material online, but any help on the way is appreciated.

I've started dosing Microbe-Lift Special Blend, but maybe thats not as diverse/effective or even the right tool compared to your suggestions. As I said. Bacteria is a blind spot...
Thanks for input!

 

[Semisonyx]

Is there a reliable way to determine if it is bacterial? Or is there typical symptoms to look for? This really is a blind spot for me and I will need to dig down in material online, but any help on the way is appreciated.

I've started dosing Microbe-Lift Special Blend, but maybe thats not as diverse/effective or even the right tool compared to your suggestions. As I said. Bacteria is a blind spot...
Thanks for input!

Not really, it’s just always been the answer to getting out of any crash I’ve been through, including ones similar to this. MB7 has always been my go to, but I can’t say it’s better than anything else. I dose it, watch NO3&PO4, and turn down the skimmer to reduce nutrient export if it gets low. It takes time, but the rtn/stn will slow down dramatically and start to reverse.

 

[jda]

This all is a bunch ado about nothing, IMO. The coral will need to be able to handle infections and outside pathogens to survive. There are countless strains and counts of bacteria in every system.

Does anybody have any idea which bacteria outcompete the others? How do you know that what you think is beneficial actually is, and if it is beneficial more than other types to corals? I know that some manufacturer might say stuff like this, but I mean like really.

@flampton is a bacteriaologist and maybe you can write him and ask, but I would focus on lighting, stability and making the corals as happy as possible.

Do you have pests? I know that most people tend to go to no really quickly - we all have done this, but look a second and third time. Some can attach bases in otherwise healthy corals.

 

[kimros1986]

This all is a bunch ado about nothing, IMO. The coral will need to be able to handle infections and outside pathogens to survive. There are countless strains and counts of bacteria in every system.

Does anybody have any idea which bacteria outcompete the others? How do you know that what you think is beneficial actually is, and if it is beneficial more than other types to corals? I know that some manufacturer might say stuff like this, but I mean like really.

@flampton is a bacteriaologist and maybe you can write him and ask, but I would focus on lighting, stability and making the corals as happy as possible.

Do you have pests? I know that most people tend to go to no really quickly - we all have done this, but look a second and third time. Some can attach bases in otherwise healthy corals.

Thanks for a different view on the problem.

The reason why I wonder if it might be bacterial is that more or less all other parameters are stable. With alkatronic for kh and continuous measurement with mastertronic for po4, no3, ca and Mg. Monitoring of pH, salinity (Hanna digital), orp and temp. I do monthly icps and nothing critical has been reported.

I've got a wide spread of lighting with two hydra 52hd (ab+ setting around 25%), 2 t5s and 2 orphek or3 led strips. I've measured par with seneye but will today borrow an apogee from a friend, just to get a more exact reading.

I've changed flow from gyres to mp40 to get a more "penetrated" flow (although the problem occurred before the switch of circulation pumps).

I feed acropower and reef roids/reef blizzard s.

I got a mandarin, sixliner wrasse, yellow wrasse and a copperband as a pest patrol. No visual pests. But I might take the frags out and study them closer than what is possible inside the tank... Just to be extra sure. Maybe do a dip while I'm at it?

But I wonder what might be with the bacterial population. Its a new area for me and, as you wrote, I'm really not sure what or who to believe. Need to dig down in this subject more onwards...

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Check for vermatid snails around the bases of those acros

 

[kimros1986]

Check for vermatid snails around the bases of those acros

Have had them before and they are not a threat to (my) corals. Might disturb but not kill.

 

[kimros1986]

No. I am curing some fresh lr now in a garbage can. Last ditch effort before I tear the tank down and start all over.

FYI I checked with a veterinary specialised in fish and corals. He said that fluconazole won't affect the bacteria within the system in a wide spectrum, but could affect critters. He said I should look elsewhere for the problem

Just sharing, not arguing

 

[Butcher333]

Thanks for a different view on the problem.

The reason why I wonder if it might be bacterial is that more or less all other parameters are stable. With alkatronic for kh and continuous measurement with mastertronic for po4, no3, ca and Mg. Monitoring of pH, salinity (Hanna digital), orp and temp. I do monthly icps and nothing critical has been reported.

I've got a wide spread of lighting with two hydra 52hd (ab+ setting around 25%), 2 t5s and 2 orphek or3 led strips. I've measured par with seneye but will today borrow an apogee from a friend, just to get a more exact reading.

I've changed flow from gyres to mp40 to get a more "penetrated" flow (although the problem occurred before the switch of circulation pumps).

I feed acropower and reef roids/reef blizzard s.

I got a mandarin, sixliner wrasse, yellow wrasse and a copperband as a pest patrol. No visual pests. But I might take the frags out and study them closer than what is possible inside the tank... Just to be extra sure. Maybe do a dip while I'm at it?

But I wonder what might be with the bacterial population. Its a new area for me and, as you wrote, I'm really not sure what or who to believe. Need to dig down in this subject more onwards...

Agree. Get controller. Monitor everything. No swings. STN starts after a few weeks following a frag show. Determine it is bacterial. Coral not so sensitive that removing and iodine dip and replacement in system shows recovery from halted bacteria. It moves to other pieces.
It’s frustrating when people insist it’s not bacterial, but a swing or a happening from weeks previous, yet an antibacterial dip halts the issue.
I’m gonna keep at my issue until I am able to control the issue. That way I can buy more coral in confidence and be happy.
Why just throw in the towel or talk about STN events that wipe you out.

 

[shakacuz]

i’m having the same issue with a green slimer frag i have. had it for two months or so, and it’s starting to STN at the base. parameters seem fine, but i test weekly so i was thinking it was a swing mid week that corrected itself(somehow????)

i plan on doing an iodine dip and dosing acropower(might switch from my current red sea AB+). plan on adding some live bacteria as well to outcompete the bad.

 

[ScottB]

I don't subscribe to the bacterial theory much. We all have a mix of them in various proportions. If I throw some dead/dying acro colony in my tank, my Vibrio population will increase as I added compromised coral flesh which is its preferred food source. The vibrio is an effect, not a cause. Sure, I have dipped stuff in Lugols solution a hundred times, just as we all have. Never seemed to change the course of anything for me.

The last time I had base STN and could not find a proximate explanation, I was advised to hit the tank with Interceptor. Traditional dips of the affected colonies & frags never revealed anything, but more and more pieces were showing this very slow base STN so I went for it. Things did turn around after that. Of course I cannot prove anything as there was no control sample set aside, but I would do it again if I had base STN show up again.