Are Captive Bred Fish More Susceptible to Diseases?

[Tamberav]

Gobies, clownfish, and even easier tangs like bristletooth and sailfin are easier in terms of disease then say a powder tang or achilles tang. I would assume the Acanthurus Tangs having a thinner slime coat makes it easier for a parasite to replicate as well.

 

[Cthulukelele]

Gobies, clownfish, and even easier tangs like bristletooth and sailfin are easier in terms of disease then say a powder tang or achilles tang. I would assume the Acanthurus Tangs having a thinner slime coat makes it easier for a parasite to replicate as well.

Powder blues are my dream fish as far as coloration. I just wish they weren't so mean and susceptible to disease.

 

[Wildreefs]

They are virtually guaranteed to come without disease from the source. That’s what I was talking about. Show me a wild caught specimen where that is in any way possible?

How is that possible when these captive fish are raised in ocean pumped saltwater? Even if they run heavy uv, some is bound to slip by

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Actually, you are incorrect - at least with some parasites. Humans can develop immunity to parasites - and like fish - there are also innate (non-specific) proteins, etc in the GI tract that protect some people from parasites: https://academic.oup.com/intimm/article/30/3/91/4925811#

I think there is still an issue with people confusing or conflating innate immunity, immunity conferred by good diet/environment and acquired immunity.

In speaking about the last one, with fish, acquired immunity to metazoan parasites is very limited and fleeting, and in many cases, not present at all. It is actually MORE common to see this in captive fish than in wild ones - the captive ones develop this by virtue of having survived an epizootic. Innate and conferred immunity is more often seen in wild fishes.

Jay

 

[Cthulukelele]

I think there is still an issue with people confusing or conflating innate immunity, immunity conferred by good diet/environment and acquired immunity.

In speaking about the last one, with fish, acquired immunity to metazoan parasites is very limited and fleeting, and in many cases, not present at all. It is actually MORE common to see this in captive fish than in wild ones - the captive ones develop this by virtue of having survived an epizootic. Innate and conferred immunity is more often seen in wild fishes.

Jay

It's really funny to see talk of innate immunity on the reefkeeping forum as it's a topic that regularly comes up at work in regards to lung transplant. I can't seem to get away from it lol

 

[Lionfish hunter]

How is that possible when these captive fish are raised in ocean pumped saltwater? Even if they run heavy uv, some is bound to slip by

Interesting point, but they definitely run parasite free tanks. If you talk to dr reef he will tell you ich in captive bred fish is basically non existent. My lfs sells captive bred fish and it is the only tank in the store with no copper because they always come clean. And biota told me their fish are clean. Every tang I have ever had(I’ve had a ton) has come with ich. Except the 5 baby biota yellow tangs, completely disease free. I don’t know the ratio of parasites to gallons of Hawaii water but it is probably hundreds of thousands of gallons for every 1 parasite. Maybe that is it? Not sure. I would imagine most fish pick up ich and velvet from other fish once in holding facilities after being captured.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

It's really funny to see talk of innate immunity on the reefkeeping forum as it's a topic that regularly comes up at work in regards to lung transplant. I can't seem to get away from it lol

If wild caught fish have immunity to ich and velvet, I have gotten very unlucky over the years!

 

[Cthulukelele]

If wild caught fish have immunity to ich and velvet, I have gotten very unlucky over the years!

They wouldn't be immune. Also velvet is a different animal from what I've heard. No amount of managing that one

 

[vetteguy53081]

Its all in the management of the fish prior to acquition and condition of the environment they are placed into. Often fish disease is on you the aquarist and not the fish or the tank or LFS although LFS have often overlooked their own issues.
As with maricultured coral, price will be less and same applies to wild caught fish.
You take a fish out of their environment and source of food and hideouts and they become a challenge with feeding and adapting to aquarium/closed box environments.
Captive bred like aquacultured coral adapt easier to aquarium settings because they are raised within the specifications we use However with captive bred fish, I find many to be small in size, a challenge to feed and are not resistant to disease but adapt easier with our environment

 

[FeliciaM]

Of course. But - whether we like it or not - humans (which is what we were discussing) are exposed to potential parasites every day. The point is/was there is immunity to various parasites in both fish and humans

I'm Crypto free since 2012 after dedicating to proper quarantine. In the US my kids are lucky enough to not be exposed to the same parasites as people in 3rd world countries due to sanitation and refrigeration, etc.

 

[MnFish1]

I think there is still an issue with people confusing or conflating innate immunity, immunity conferred by good diet/environment and acquired immunity.

In speaking about the last one, with fish, acquired immunity to metazoan parasites is very limited and fleeting, and in many cases, not present at all. It is actually MORE common to see this in captive fish than in wild ones - the captive ones develop this by virtue of having survived an epizootic. Innate and conferred immunity is more often seen in wild fishes.

Jay

Can you talk a little about what you think the miscommunication is? I think many people (myself included) - have relied on the long ago published articles on immunity by colorni/burgess etc - which focused mostly on CI - suggesting that immunity to Ich (in the type of fish studied) starts to drop at 6 months - unless re-exposed.

It is my understanding that innate immunity has to do with the slime coat and the various proteins, etc enclosed therein as well as the GI tract. Acquired immunity is directed against a specific agent based on T-cell mediated as well as specific antibodies- and may very well be short-lived, and may not be present to all pathogens. (most of the studies I've read have to do with CI). What would be interesting (if possible) - would be to measure specific antibody levels - or cytotoxic T-cell immunity against various pathogens in wild vs captive fish. (I have not found one).

My metazoan parasites - I assume you're talking about worms/flukes? If so - just like in humans - I would think immunity is short-lived (if at all).

 

[MnFish1]

If wild caught fish have immunity to ich and velvet, I have gotten very unlucky over the years!

I think the point (I think you made before) - is that in a small tank heavily stocked the multiplication rate for Ich/velvet will overload even an immune fish.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Can you talk a little about what you think the miscommunication is? I think many people (myself included) - have relied on the long ago published articles on immunity by colorni/burgess etc - which focused mostly on CI - suggesting that immunity to Ich (in the type of fish studied) starts to drop at 6 months - unless re-exposed.

It is my understanding that innate immunity has to do with the slime coat and the various proteins, etc enclosed therein as well as the GI tract. Acquired immunity is directed against a specific agent based on T-cell mediated as well as specific antibodies- and may very well be short-lived, and may not be present to all pathogens. (most of the studies I've read have to do with CI). What would be interesting (if possible) - would be to measure specific antibody levels - or cytotoxic T-cell immunity against various pathogens in wild vs captive fish. (I have not found one).

My metazoan parasites - I assume you're talking about worms/flukes? If so - just like in humans - I would think immunity is short-lived (if at all).

I agree with that, I thought you were saying acquired immunity is useful protection against metazoans and I don’t think it is.
Jay

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I think the point (I think you made before) - is that in a small tank heavily stocked the multiplication rate for Ich/velvet will overload even an immune fish.

When did I say I have heavily stocked small tanks? My last tank was a 75 gallon with 1 lion fish in it, no other fish. Had a 235 cycling but he had plenty of room. He got ich from live rock I got from petco(boy that was dumb). He died. 125 gallon before that with only 2 clowns, yellow tang, flame angel, and blue tang. It got ich, and would have killed them if I didn’t cure it. Probably one of the most under stocked tanks of anybody on here. I have open aquascape in all aquariums so the fish have maximum room. And now I have a 235 gallon aquarium that is and always has been ich free. Everything is quarantined for 52 days. And I have never been more happy with an aquarium. No ich management, nothing to worry about, they just stay healthy. But my tanks are not small nor over stocked.

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

For those who claim that wild caught fish have healthier more robust immune systems you are basing your bias off of a mammalian immune system not every animal has the same kind of immune cells as we do that are able to store a memory of a pathogen to aid in the presence of a re-exposure or infection I am unaware of any research that specifically looked at a fishes immune system and it’s response capabilities. That being said yes BIOTA fish have been exposed to far less stress and haven’t been weeded out through natural selection so you could indeed end up with an inferior fish depending on breeding conditions. If you want to compare aquaculture to anything you should compare it to maybe the reptile trade where you have seen advancements in species since they have been bred in captivity and the hybrids that have resulted in breeding animals of like genus that would not have normally bred in the wild. This has shown to actually produce healthier more robust animals as they have inherited dominant traits from each parent species while limiting deformities that are common in either parent species. Also when you take into consideration an animal that has lived it’s entire life in an artificial ecosystem it is well adapted to that environment where as one who has come from the wild will be in a constant of stress until acclimated which a wild caught fish may never acclimate. You also may see poor feeding, and aggression from a wild caught animal that you wouldn’t see in a biota. Also my understanding about ich, velvet, and brook is they are inate in the animal and only become an outbreak when the animal is stressed this same kind of thing can be found in us humans we all carry the staphylococcal bacteria in and on our bodies yet when we get stressed you can get staph infections in the corners of your nose and in extreme cases it can spread or even become MRSA. That being said I know it’s an apples to potatoes comparison so a biota fish even born and bread in a captive environment they still likely carry Brook, ich, and velvet the only way to rid our animals of these would be by eliminating the parent fish altogether and well that’s just not possible. So weather you believe in wild caught or biota is like if you believe in God or not everyone will have their own opinion and no proof to sway a believer or non believer in either direction. So pick which ever speaks to you and go with it just do your best to be the best care giver you can be even dips, and medicine aren’t proven we do it because it makes us feel good when it comes to quarantining for ich, brook, velvet. No for internal parasites we do have proven treatments that work that being said a good healthy fish that’s eating, has good color and isn’t breathing hard if quarantined with prazi and not copper or Formaldehyde in my opinion has the same chances of introducing ich, velvet, or brook as one treated with copper or formaldehyde. Because copper and formaldehyde only kill what’s on the surface of the fish and what’s free floating in the tank not necessarily the ones that have been ingested by the animal.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

For those who claim that wild caught fish have healthier more robust immune systems you are basing your bias off of a mammalian immune system not every animal has the same kind of immune cells as we do that are able to store a memory of a pathogen to aid in the presence of a re-exposure or infection I am unaware of any research that specifically looked at a fishes immune system and it’s response capabilities. That being said yes BIOTA fish have been exposed to far less stress and haven’t been weeded out through natural selection so you could indeed end up with an inferior fish depending on breeding conditions. If you want to compare aquaculture to anything you should compare it to maybe the reptile trade where you have seen advancements in species since they have been bred in captivity and the hybrids that have resulted in breeding animals of like genus that would not have normally bred in the wild. This has shown to actually produce healthier more robust animals as they have inherited dominant traits from each parent species while limiting deformities that are common in either parent species. Also when you take into consideration an animal that has lived it’s entire life in an artificial ecosystem it is well adapted to that environment where as one who has come from the wild will be in a constant of stress until acclimated which a wild caught fish may never acclimate. You also may see poor feeding, and aggression from a wild caught animal that you wouldn’t see in a biota. Also my understanding about ich, velvet, and brook is they are inate in the animal and only become an outbreak when the animal is stressed this same kind of thing can be found in us humans we all carry the staphylococcal bacteria in and on our bodies yet when we get stressed you can get staph infections in the corners of your nose and in extreme cases it can spread or even become MRSA. That being said I know it’s an apples to potatoes comparison so a biota fish even born and bread in a captive environment they still likely carry Brook, ich, and velvet the only way to rid our animals of these would be by eliminating the parent fish altogether and well that’s just not possible. So weather you believe in wild caught or biota is like if you believe in God or not everyone will have their own opinion and no proof to sway a believer or non believer in either direction. So pick which ever speaks to you and go with it just do your best to be the best care giver you can be even dips, and medicine aren’t proven we do it because it makes us feel good when it comes to quarantining for ich, brook, velvet. No for internal parasites we do have proven treatments that work that being said a good healthy fish that’s eating, has good color and isn’t breathing hard if quarantined with prazi and not copper or Formaldehyde in my opinion has the same chances of introducing ich, velvet, or brook as one treated with copper or formaldehyde. Because copper and formaldehyde only kill what’s on the surface of the fish and what’s free floating in the tank not necessarily the ones that have been ingested by the animal.

You do not have to get rid of the parent fish to produce offspring free of ich brook and velvet. You just need parents free of those parasites. These are organisms with a well studied life cycle. And it is not hard to break that life cycle erraticating the parasites. There is no debate there, it is fact.

Also Ich brook and velvet are not present in 99.99% of captive bred fish unless they are exposed to it outside the breeders tanks. All captive bred breeders keep parasite free systems. Infant fry would stand less than no chance whatsoever if they were exposed to velvet.

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

You do not have to get rid of the parent fish to produce offspring free of ich brook and velvet. You just need parents free of those parasites. These are organisms with a well studied life cycle. And it is not hard to break that life cycle erraticating the parasites. There is no debate there, it is fact.

Also Ich brook and velvet are not present in 99.99% of captive bred fish unless they are exposed to it outside the breeders tanks. All captive bred breeders keep parasite free systems. Infant fry would stand less than no chance whatsoever if they were exposed to velvet.

The only way to ensure parent fish have never ever been exposed to these organisms is to eliminate the parent fish not fish species had magically appeared out of thin air in a breeders tank every fish in captivity has its origins in the ocean. Also you tout that brook, ich and velvet are very well studied and easily eradicated then explain how well quarantined and medicated fish develop these disease after quarantine and medication treatments when severely stressed! It’s because we don’t actually eradicate the organism.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Ick and velvet can be erraticated. Ive done it countless times. Again, there is no debate here, it is fact. There are literally people making a living right now selling quarantined medicated fish parasite free.

Not all qt or medication is done correctly. Literally transfering fish around a few times will totally cure these things. TTM

 

[Lionfish hunter]

The only way to ensure parent fish have never ever been exposed to these organisms is to eliminate the parent fish not fish species had magically appeared out of thin air in a breeders tank every fish in captivity has its origins in the ocean. Also you tout that brook, ich and velvet are very well studied and easily eradicated then explain how well quarantined and medicated fish develop these disease after quarantine and medication treatments when severely stressed! It’s because we don’t actually eradicate the organism.

If a fish gets ich after medication. There are a million things that could have been done incorrectly. Everything must be done exactly right. Copper dropping below a certain level just briefly is enough for treatment to fail. Or just bringing a new piecevof coral home could infect the fish again.

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

If a fish gets ich after medication. There are a million things that could have been done incorrectly. Everything must be done exactly right. Copper dropping below a certain level just briefly is enough for treatment to fail. Or just bringing a new piecevof coral home could infect the fish again.

Yes failed treatments do occur re-introductions do occur however there are cases where everything was followed and documented and ich has still broken out months and years after the addition and the last inhabitants were introduced. If this happens on a semi regular basis to good practitioners and reefers what makes you think BIOTA facilities are any less susceptible to these failures hence why the only way you can eliminate it is by eliminating the parent fish and having fully synthetic breeding programs with completely sterile equipment.