Ammonia as route cause to all nuisance in the hobby.

sixty_reefer

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We all wondered for many years why do we get nuisance algae wend all our residual nutrients are in range, many ponder on why zero nutrients makes us susceptible to dinoflagellates and why Cyanobacteria can occur after a dead snail. And why most often we see them starting to bloom on the sand bed and rock.

for some time I’ve also pondered on what could trigger all the above and now I believe that we may well be a step further close to the route cause of all our nightmares nuisances.

it seems that if we look in detail to all nutrients conditions that trigger all this species to bloom is ammonia, yes the dreaded ammonia I thought that I wouldn’t have to worry about it any longer and now it seems that ammonia is the simple cause of all common nuisance.

“ugly stage”

the so called ugly stage is just a phase of a system that hasn’t yet developed a strong bacterial population, as soon as the light go on many photosynthetic organisms start competing with bacteria for ammonia, including diatoms the very first nuisance once limited by silica the ammonia gets redirected to green nuisance algae often and so on. The more we add to the system during those first months the more chances of introducing a organism that can thrive on ammonia.

“ the zero nutrients”

this is fairly commonly observed with folks trying to battle nuisance algae intentionally limiting a system by phosphates or nitrates, unaware that depleting a system from nitrates or phosphates will actually increase ammonia in the system and allow the algae to bloom with a revenge, yes most nuisance algaes love ammonia so much that many professionals algae growers go through gallons of it a year ammonia does makes your algae growth explode.
The reason ammonia becomes more available under depleted nitrate or phosphates environments is primarily due to limitations to the nitrifying heterotrophic beneficial bacteria that was responsible in oxidising ammonia until it become limited, in the absence of any of the 3 nutrients heterotrophic bacteria becomes dormant and will only wake up from it if all 3 nutrients are available again in the water column. Meanwhile the system ammonia will be redirected elsewhere often to nuisance green algae, Cyanobacteria or dinoflagellates depending on which is present at the time.

not all systems will have this nuisances blooming under zero nutrients this is due to a system having a strong nitrifying population, this bacteria can only become limited by ammonia usually and by the time it requires to process ammonia, meaning you could theoretically run a zero zero nutrients although your set up would have to be build and run with that in mind.

“Why the sandbed and rock”

That’s were all organic matter gets trapped usually, the first stage of the decomposition of organic matter is the release of ammonia it’s no surprise that we often see them starting from there assimilating all the ammonia before it reaches the water column, colonising those surfaces will be like laying on a plate full of food. Ever wondered why increasing the flow near the sand bed can be helpful sometimes with Cyanobacteria?

there is more to it although I believe we got enough to start a healthy debate on the subject and if ammonia is indeed the culprit in all our nuisances would implementing methods that reduce ammonia help us through a bad situation I’ve looked at the nutrient effects agains many of the common nuisances and I believe they all work at reducing ammonia, two that come to mind is silica dosing for dinoflagellates.
Are they competing for space or are they competing for ammonia?
Another common method is the organic carbon dosing, they say sugar based is best, sugar is also used to increase the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria that is very efficient at transforming ammonia. Meaning that excess ammonia can cause us troubles and methods to reduce ammonia can take us out of almost any issue with the nuisances mentioned above and others.
 

blaxsun

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I don't really have nuisance algae (other than what occasionally grows in the crevices of my wavemakers), but I run a lot of bio media that converts ammonia » nitrites as well as more bio media that converts nitrites » nitrates (which is why I have higher nitrates, but almost undetectable ammonia and nitrites).

Running a UV 24/7 also helps. A lot. Having an awesome and diverse cleanup crew (especially algae eaters) also makes a big difference. And I don't touch my sand bed unless I'm evening the sand out from one of the diggers.
 

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I wonder... would simply adding more rock/surface area for a higher bacteria population help mitigate the nuisances and the "ugly" stage. Obviously this is the point of live rock, ceramic media, bio balls, etc but often I see tanks with barely any rock and I wonder if they simply added some more might help..but this is also more real estate to be fought over...although it may be too late during an "outbreak" of X...just thinkin out loud..
 

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Very interesting and you may well be onto something there.
Ammonia derived from Ammonium I am told be nobody (as far as I know) tests fir Ammonium. We call maturation the nitrogen cycle which is only partly true as maturation of our tanks cintinue long after we have converted Ammonium into nitrate.
Anyway, I digress. It is know that H202 hydrogen peroxide will nullify Ammonia. I am not sure of the chemistry reaction involved but am sure somebody on here can explain it.
I use an Oxydator in my reef tank which dispenses small amounts of hydrogen peroxide 24/7 which reacts with the Ammonia converting it into something less potent to our animals.
I believe my oxydator is a great help in fighting cyno and perhaps dinos but most reports are anecdotal but people do report an Oxydator either helped or eliminated these pests.
I have helped people save their fish from Ammonia poisoning by regular administration of peroxide direct to the aquarium most notably recent call fir help when an overstocked freshwater aquarium was causing an Ammonia spkie.
I digress, However if we short circuit the nitrogen cycle and see an improvement in the reduction of nuisance algae and that includes GHA then it adds weight to your post.
 
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I wonder... would simply adding more rock/surface area for a higher bacteria population help mitigate the nuisances and the "ugly" stage. Obviously this is the point of live rock, ceramic media, bio balls, etc but often I see tanks with barely any rock and I wonder if they simply added some more might help..but this is also more real estate to be fought over...although it may be too late during an "outbreak" of X...just thinkin out loud..
In my understanding no, adding more surface area is not always the solution having a larger water volume could, more water more dilution and more pelagic bacteria. What ever we do heterotrophic bacteria will always be the most dominant species due to the speed that they can break down nutrients, every 5 to 20 minutes in comparison to autotrophic nitrifying bacteria that will need 16 hours to multiply. In the race for ammonia heterotrophic bacteria will always prevail against autotrophic nitrifying bacteria. Live rock is a good source of ammonia reducing organisms not just for the good bacteria but also due to many photosynthetic organisms that colonise the surfaces including the so desirable coraline algae that will aid the ammonia reduction.
to reduce the ugly stage I believe that the only solution may be a carbon source to stimulate both autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria ensuring all ammonia is being used by bacteria instead of possible nuisance organisms.
 
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sixty_reefer

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I don't really have nuisance algae (other than what occasionally grows in the crevices of my wavemakers), but I run a lot of bio media that converts ammonia » nitrites as well as more bio media that converts nitrites » nitrates (which is why I have higher nitrates, but almost undetectable ammonia and nitrites).

Running a UV 24/7 also helps. A lot. Having an awesome and diverse cleanup crew (especially algae eaters) also makes a big difference. And I don't touch my sand bed unless I'm evening the sand out from one of the diggers.
Just touching on the part we’re you mentioned that you have undetectable ammonia, past the initial cycle it is fairly rare for anyone to have a positive test for ammonia although I’d just like to point out that our system are constantly releasing large amounts of ammonia, urea, fish waste and decaying food will always be decomposing in our system the reason we will never see it on the test kit is because is highly desirable for many organisms and will be redirected from organism to organisms dependent on the nutrient available
 

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Interesting. I never dosed carbon but during my startup I assumed (because I have no way to test for) my organics in the water were (naturally) high; maybe I'll try dosing if I have to on my next. A friend plopped a mushroom rock full of life in very early on and that rock never manifested any of the nuisances while the rest of the tank looked horrible, because as you say it was full of organisms reducing ammonia?
 
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sixty_reefer

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Very interesting and you may well be onto something there.
Ammonia derived from Ammonium I am told be nobody (as far as I know) tests fir Ammonium. We call maturation the nitrogen cycle which is only partly true as maturation of our tanks cintinue long after we have converted Ammonium into nitrate.
Anyway, I digress. It is know that H202 hydrogen peroxide will nullify Ammonia. I am not sure of the chemistry reaction involved but am sure somebody on here can explain it.
I use an Oxydator in my reef tank which dispenses small amounts of hydrogen peroxide 24/7 which reacts with the Ammonia converting it into something less potent to our animals.
I believe my oxydator is a great help in fighting cyno and perhaps dinos but most reports are anecdotal but people do report an Oxydator either helped or eliminated these pests.
I have helped people save their fish from Ammonia poisoning by regular administration of peroxide direct to the aquarium most notably recent call fir help when an overstocked freshwater aquarium was causing an Ammonia spkie.
I digress, However if we short circuit the nitrogen cycle and see an improvement in the reduction of nuisance algae and that includes GHA then it adds weight to your post.
I will have to read on the effects of peroxide to ammonia, I’m curious on the subject. I believe that this is like one of the follow the money kind of situation although in this case it’s follow the ammonia all nuisances blooms can be traced back to ammonia and all solutions in a way or another will be depleting ammonia :)
 
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sixty_reefer

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Interesting. I never dosed carbon but during my startup I assumed (because I have no way to test for) my organics in the water were (naturally) high; maybe I'll try dosing if I have to on my next. A friend plopped a mushroom rock full of life in very early on and that rock never manifested any of the nuisances while the rest of the tank looked horrible, because as you say it was full of organisms reducing ammonia?
At this point I’d like to mention that not all carbon sources are equal, different sources of dissolved organic carbon will promote different types of bacteria and some can be use by nuisance bacteria (Cyanobacteria), at the moment I only trust one and hopefully after Xmas I will attempt to skip the ugly stage using that same product on a different thread in the research forum. Carbon used as a maintenance dose will reduce ammonia fairly efficiently keeping in mind we should never allow for the other two main nutrients to bottom out.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I’ve not see evidence that ammonia levels are a predictor of algae issues,

Folks dosing ammonia have not reported issues that I remember, but dosing it doesn’t necessarily mean steady state concentrations are appreciably higher compared to dosing nitrate or amino acids.
 
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sixty_reefer

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I’ve not see evidence that ammonia levels are a predictor of algae issues,
It is not, under normal circumstances, just in certain events, some I’ve described above. Unless I’ve understood it wrong and you mentioning that algae, phytoplankton and bacteria can’t use ammonia? I believe we both know how desirable ammonia is for photosynthetic organisms.
Folks dosing ammonia have not reported issues that I remember, but dosing it doesn’t necessarily mean steady state concentrations are appreciably higher compared to dosing nitrate or amino acids.
Only a issue if dosing wile a bloom of dinoflagellates, Cyanobacteria or other nuisance is present, I haven’t seen no one doing it under those conditions and do well. Have you?
 
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blaxsun

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Just touching on the part we’re you mentioned that you have undetectable ammonia, past the initial cycle it is fairly rare for anyone to have a positive test for ammonia although I’d just like to point out that our system are constantly releasing large amounts of ammonia, urea, fish waste and decaying food will always be decomposing in our system the reason we will never see it on the test kit is because is highly desirable for many organisms and will be redirected from organism to organisms dependent on the nutrient available
Whenever I had tested in the past I always got a slight amount (it was never just 0.0), but since I added all the bio media I never even get a hint of any ammonia.
 
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sixty_reefer

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Whenever I had tested in the past I always got a slight amount (it was never just 0.0), but since I added all the bio media I never even get a hint of any ammonia.
Was you using api test kit?
 

atoll

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With regards to ammonia and hydrogen peroxide and the reaction combining the two.

The makers Schotting claim using an Oxydator neutralises ammonia but they don't say how not that I recall reading. However, perhaps through oxidation.
 
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J1a

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Only a issue if dosing wile a bloom of dinoflagellates, Cyanobacteria or other nuisance is present, I haven’t seen no one doing it under those conditions and do well. Have you?
I dosed ammonium chloride while I deal with dino (large cell amphidinium) and continue to dose now for nitrogen supplementation. From my observation, it does not trigger any negative effect.
 
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