All For reef Not Keeping Up With Trace Elements

[Reefin Aint Easy]

I switched to all for reef from 2 part (plus trace) for dosing a couple months back and its been great for keeping my alk and calcium consistent. But I just received my ICP test back today and its low on some trace elements. I also do 1 gallon AWC daily. Is this normal to have to dose more trace elements on top of water changes and using all for reef?

Tank is a Red Sea 525XL (139 Gallon) LPS Dominant

Low Elements:
Iron - 2.338 ppb
Iodine - 4.213 ppb
Cobalt - .043 ppb
Manganese - .482 ppb
Zinc - 0 ppb

 

[DeepintheReef]

Can you dose seachem reef plus? It is aminos plus a lower concentration of trace elements than seachem reef trace.

Every tank will be different in trace element consumption, but I believe Tropic Marin is increasing the amount of iodine in their formulations sometime very soon.

 

[Reefin Aint Easy]

Can you dose seachem reef plus? It is aminos plus a lower concentration of trace elements than seachem reef trace.

Every tank will be different in trace element consumption, but I believe Tropic Marin is increasing the amount of iodine in their formulations sometime very soon.

I'll have to check out that product. I just found it crazy that I would need to dose additional trace elements with using All For Reef.

 

[DeepintheReef]

I'll have to check out that product. I just found it crazy that I would need to dose additional trace elements with using All For Reef.

I don’t think it’s normal. Most people I’ve seen using AFR don’t find the need for additional trace dosing

 

[Reefin Aint Easy]

@Lou Ekus or @Randy Holmes-Farley would you have any input?

 

[Waynerock]

I have been dosing AFR for the last 2 years and currently dose about 28-29 ml a day on a 65 gallon that is stuffed. Durring that time I have done 3 ICP and the only trace that was low enough to have to dose was iodide. I run carbon 24/7 so that was expected and I try (but fail) at dosing iodide daily. I got plenty of critters in my tank to hammer the trace for sure

 

[Reefin Aint Easy]

I have been dosing AFR for the last 2 years and currently dose about 28-29 ml a day on a 65 gallon that is stuffed. Durring that time I have done 3 ICP and the only trace that was low enough to have to dose was iodide. I run carbon 24/7 so that was expected and I try (but fail) at dosing iodide daily. I got plenty of critters in my tank to hammer the trace for sure

Can I ask if its AFR powder or is it the liquid?

Beautiful tank by the way!

 

[areefer01]

Can you dose seachem reef plus? It is aminos plus a lower concentration of trace elements than seachem reef trace.

Every tank will be different in trace element consumption, but I believe Tropic Marin is increasing the amount of iodine in their formulations sometime very soon.

I still don't understand the iodine part. Is there anything documented, reviewed, that says we should be dosing it?

Few of my ATI ICP results came back saying it was low so I did a couple rounds but saw any major change in the displays look outside the next ATI ICP saying it was fine.

 

[Waynerock]

Can I ask if its AFR powder or is it the liquid?

Beautiful tank by the way!

Thank you and I switched to the powder right when it came out I think early summer

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I still don't understand the iodine part. Is there anything documented, reviewed, that says we should be dosing it?

Few of my ATI ICP results came back saying it was low so I did a couple rounds but saw any major change in the displays look outside the next ATI ICP saying it was fine.

Some folks think it is useful, and some do not. I did not find it useful. Most corals do not have a need for iodine that is published by the scientific community. Experimenting as you did seem the most appropriate approach, IMO.

I discuss what does need iodine and show lots of other info on it here:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part I

This first article will cover what is known about iodine in the oceans, including what forms it takes and how toxic these forms are, what organisms use it, how they obtain it, and what they use it for. It will also detail some issues around iodine measurement and what natural sources of iodine...

reefs.com

 

[areefer01]

Some folks think it is useful, and some do not. I did not find it useful. Most corals do not have a need for iodine that is published by the scientific community. Experimenting as you did seem the most appropriate approach, IMO.

I discuss what does need iodine and show lots of other info on it here:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part I

This first article will cover what is known about iodine in the oceans, including what forms it takes and how toxic these forms are, what organisms use it, how they obtain it, and what they use it for. It will also detail some issues around iodine measurement and what natural sources of iodine...

reefs.com

Thank you for the reply and information!

 

[Hans-Werner]

I still don't understand the iodine part. Is there anything documented, reviewed, that says we should be dosing it?

I think there is quite a long tradition of books that say we should be dosing iodine. I think it originates from Wilkens who influenced authors like Fossa and Nilsen, and Delbeek and Sprung which give similar formulas for regular dosage of iodide.

In one of our systems iodine had dropped to 34 ppb by August last year, so I increased dosage to about the double. With doubling the dosage also the concentration in tanks increased to about the double concentration between ca. 50 and 100 ppb in different systems.

A difference could be seen soon in zooxanthellate gorgonians. A larger one, I think Pseudoplexaura, which had stopped growth resumed growth and showed a constriction where growth had stopped for some time.

A Briareum asbestinum which had started to show tissue necrosis grew new and larger polyps. Also other octocorallia (soft corals, leather corals and gorgonians) showed larger polyps.

Also scleractinians like Acropora spp. showed improved polyp extension, growth and colors but less pronounced. I think, like gorgonians and maybe other octocorallia, they incorporate iodine mainly in the organic matrix of their skeletons.

Besides the interesting article of Randy one of the more interesting articles I found in a quick search right now was this one from Goldberg et al. on corals and coral rocks in the diet of a parrotfish. In this research iodine increased by a factor of 38 from live coral (3.7 ppm on average) to coral rock (142 ppm on average). In coral rock the concentration of iodine found was by a factor of ca. 2366 higher than in the seawater (ca. 60 ppb) surrounding the rocks. For comparison: The enrichment factor for calcium is ca. 878 and 756 respectively, from ca. 410 ppm in seawater to ca. 36 % in live coral and 31 % in coral rock. Similar processes may influence iodine consumption in reef tanks too.

 

[areefer01]

I think there is quite a long tradition of books that say we should be dosing iodine. I think it originates from Wilkens who influenced authors like Fossa and Nilsen, and Delbeek and Sprung which give similar formulas for regular dosage of iodide.

In one of our systems iodine had dropped to 34 ppb by August last year, so I increased dosage to about the double. With doubling the dosage also the concentration in tanks increased to about the double concentration between ca. 50 and 100 ppb in different systems.

A difference could be seen soon in zooxanthellate gorgonians. A larger one, I think Pseudoplexaura, which had stopped growth resumed growth and showed a constriction where growth had stopped for some time.

A Briareum asbestinum which had started to show tissue necrosis grew new and larger polyps. Also other octocorallia (soft corals, leather corals and gorgonians) showed larger polyps.

Also scleractinians like Acropora spp. showed improved polyp extension, growth and colors but less pronounced. I think, like gorgonians and maybe other octocorallia, they incorporate iodine mainly in the organic matrix of their skeletons.

Besides the interesting article of Randy one of the more interesting articles I found in a quick search right now was this one from Goldberg et al. on corals and coral rocks in the diet of a parrotfish. In this research iodine increased by a factor of 38 from live coral (3.7 ppm on average) to coral rock (142 ppm on average). In coral rock the concentration of iodine found was by a factor of ca. 2366 higher than in the seawater (ca. 60 ppb) surrounding the rocks. For comparison: The enrichment factor for calcium is ca. 878 and 756 respectively, from ca. 410 ppm in seawater to ca. 36 % in live coral and 31 % in coral rock. Similar processes may influence iodine consumption in reef tanks too.

Thank you for the reply and also the link. I appreciate it. Please note that I'm not questioning what you are saying or doing it was more of a question out of curiosity.

I've read that some corals like mushrooms having iodine and other trace elements added as supplements but nothing ever concrete if that makes sense. I was more interested if there is anything more than that or we are just recommending something because we can test for it. Call me sceptical I guess.

Then I started to think why iodine when there are other elements to choose from but then I started to think maybe those are already covered or removed from the list for other reasons. Never the less I do appreciate the response, detail, and link. I will do some more reading.

The additional iodine isn't going to make me stop using the product. I really enjoy the single dose solution and it is affordable. The fact you and your staff went from a liquid, to providing a list to hobbyists to make it on our own, and now a powder is amazing. We just do not see this very often in our hobby such that a company goes this far out of their way to make a product more affordable.

Thank you again. Hope all is well out your way in these difficult times.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Thank you we are well, trust you too!

It was absolutely ok to ask this question. It's my pleasure to answer such questions and provide information.

 

[Superlightman]

I'll have to check out that product. I just found it crazy that I would need to dose additional trace elements with using All For Reef.

Well probably no product on the market will meet the exact consumption of each tank, it depends on what you have inside.And manufacturer can't take the risk to overdose it too much or low consumption tanks may get trouble. I need to add iodine, vanadium zinc and nickel. But Werner has improved already the formula, there is a version 2.

 

[Noodles_Jefferson]

I'll have to check out that product. I just found it crazy that I would need to dose additional trace elements with using All For Reef.

From what I have read All for reef supplies just enough trace elements to offset the increase in sodium chloride. you may also lose some due to protein skimming so it might be a good idea to keep some trace elements supplement on hand, maybe dose some twice a month or as needed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From what I have read All for reef supplies just enough trace elements to offset the increase in sodium chloride. you may also lose some due to protein skimming so it might be a good idea to keep some trace elements supplement on hand, maybe dose some twice a month or as needed.

No, that is not correct. All for reef does not contain significant amounts of sodium chloride. Any trace elements in it are supplements. That's does not necessarily mean it is or is not enough, but it is all supplement.

The sodium chloride effect is true of other products, such as ESB B-ionic or most products using Balling Part C.

 

[Noodles_Jefferson]

No, that is not correct. All for reef does not contain significant amounts of sodium chloride. Any trace elements in it are supplements. That's does not necessarily mean it is or is not enough, but it is all supplement.

The sodium chloride effect is true of other products, such as ESB B-ionic or most products using Balling Part C.

That's it, it was the Bionic not the AFR, thanks! But correct me if i'm wrong on this. Does the Bionic do a better job of maintaining optimum ph levels compared to AFR? My PH is a bit low at 7.5 and i want to raise it without adding any ph buffer. my tank is only 29 gallons so i don't have fancy stuff just a seachem tidal 55 HOB filter and a reef octopus HOB protein skimmer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's it, it was the Bionic not the AFR, thanks! But correct me if i'm wrong on this. Does the Bionic do a better job of maintaining optimum ph levels compared to AFR? My PH is a bit low at 7.5 and i want to raise it without adding any ph buffer. my tank is only 29 gallons so i don't have fancy stuff just a seachem tidal 55 HOB filter and a reef octopus HOB protein skimmer.

Yes.

In terms of pH, AFR and bicarbonate have a slight pH lowering effect when added, carbonate has a significant boost, and hydroxide has an even bigger boost. The normal B-ionic is carbonate.