Again… Ich after 11 Week Fallow Period. About to guve up… UV my last hope… need help sizing.

[daniel_mourra]

great!!!!! All roads poijt to uo the game in ich management. Will install a pentair 40w UV that arrived today. Will keep you updated!

 

[argiBK]

On my previous tank, I managed ich with Hydrogen Peroxide dosing + UV while concentrating on increasing food quality. Also got a biota cleaner wrasse, that while won’t explicitly treat ich, I believe helped to reduce fish stress.

Ich never fully disappeared, and I lost my cleaner shrimp, but after 2 months, even my PBT was consistently spotless (and fat).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

On my previous tank, I managed ich with Hydrogen Peroxide dosing + UV while concentrating on increasing food quality. Also got a biota cleaner wrasse, that while won’t explicitly treat ich, I believe helped to reduce fish stress.

Ich never fully disappeared, and I lost my cleaner shrimp, but after 2 months, even my PBT was consistently spotless (and fat).

The trouble is that UV breaks down hydrogen peroxide, so using both is a bit tricky. Some people dose the peroxide, turn the UV off and then turn it back on an hour or so later.
Jay

 

[argiBK]

The trouble is that UV breaks down hydrogen peroxide, so using both is a bit tricky. Some people dose the peroxide, turn the UV off and then turn it back on an hour or so later.
Jay

Interesting, the humble fish thread suggests running both concurrently to enhance H2O2’s impact.

If the recommendation is to not run concurrent, do you have a sense of H2O2’s neutralization rate in reefs to give an estimate of how long UV should be turned off after a dosing event?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Interesting, the humble fish thread suggests running both concurrently to enhance H2O2’s impact.

If the recommendation is to not run concurrent, do you have a sense of H2O2’s neutralization rate in reefs to give an estimate of how long UV should be turned off after a dosing event?

That is the issue - When exposed to UV light, hydrogen peroxide decomposes into H2O
and O- The trouble is, how much of the free radical is produced, what does it react with and how long does it persist? If you don't know (and they don't!) you shouldn't mess around with it.

Here is my article on H2O2 bench testing:

Hydrogen Peroxide Bench-testing

Bench testing of the effects of hydrogen peroxide in aquariums.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[bshonesy]

Visual disease identification is not always possible. I try to look for certain clues. In this case, the spots do look like ich in some images, but later on, they look more like mucus tufts. One diagnostic I use to try and tell the difference between ich trophonts and mucus spots is if the spots are on the fins. Looks like there are some spots on the fish's fins. Ich does that, and mucus spots don't. So - I'd have to conclude that this fish has ich. If it were mine, I'd confirm with a skin scrape, and look at it under a microscope, but I understand that isn't practical for folks at home.

So - what to do? It looks like the system is "managing" the parasite, in that the other fish are fending it off, and this one has not developed a severe disease. You might want to up your game in terms of ich management and see where that goes. Here is a write-up I did on that:

“Ich Management” Because many aquarists mix fish and invertebrates, they are ill-prepared to then treat for marine ich, as the two best treatments, amine-based copper or hyposalinity, cannot be used with invertebrates. A popular technique has then arisen, “ich management”. It is popular not because it works well, but because it is an easier alternative. Be forewarned, it often fails if applied during moderate infections. The reason that it exists as a technique at all is because people find themselves in situations like this and are desperate to try anything.



The basic idea is to reduce the infective propagules (tomites) of the ich parasite to the point where the fish's acquired immunity can fight the infection off. This is done through a series of techniques for stress reduction and tomite limiting. Unfortunately, the ich tomites themselves cause stress to the fish, so if the fish have more than 30 or so trophonts on them, the method often fails.

1) Install a powerful UV sterilizer on the aquarium.

2) Ensure that the fish's diet and water quality are the best you can make them.

3) Keep the water temperature close to 78 degrees F.

4) Siphon off the tank floor nightly to remove as many tomonts as possible.

5) Employ strong filtration to trap as many tomites as possible.

6) Try a proprietary "reef safe" marine ich medication. These rarely cure ich infections on their own, but some may have benefit when combined with other management methods. Avoid the herbal remedies, focus on those that contain peroxide salts. There is, however, some evidence that using peroxides with UV does not work, as the UV can break down the peroxides.

Jay

Some interesting ideas, thanks Jay. I’ve seen these before, but had not yet seen your endorsement of them. I understand their limitations. Do you have a recommendation of a good method for filtration for this purpose? Also do you have a recommendation for a reef safe medication? Thanks!

 

[AquaLifeStudio]

I think ich is in every tank. Some can manage it while other struggle. Certain fish are just prone to it also while others seem resistant.

Ich can be eliminated from any closed system by following fallow and quarantine procedures properly.

 

[Cdubs205]

Once ish is in you tank it’s in there for good unless you run such big UV you shock a kill your coral (done that in my newbie days). I have ich in my tank rn cause I bought a powder blue which are known for beings ich magnets but I fed selcon and Kent garlic with my pe mysis and wouod switch which one I use every other day. None of my other fish got any ich one them. I was surprised because my purple tang got it when I added a clown tang but. Now I kno some ppl are thinking ever heard of a qt tank you moron and yes, yes I have. I just never got around to setting one up and I swear by selcon and garlic but mostly selcon I put 3 full eye droppers off in my foot and I got a 205. I don’t run a uv only run dr Tim’s nitrate and phosphate pellets which I must say very surprised how well it worked sorry for getting off topic just my 2 cents not worth much but take from it what u choose.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Some interesting ideas, thanks Jay. I’ve seen these before, but had not yet seen your endorsement of them. I understand their limitations. Do you have a recommendation of a good method for filtration for this purpose? Also do you have a recommendation for a reef safe medication? Thanks!

Hi, well, I don't actually "endorse" ich management as a technique. The text I posted was from my disease book (in press) where I discuss various ich treatments. At the end, I sort of say, if you can't or won't do a proper treatment, here is an alternative. In the text above this is alluded to: "It is popular not because it works well, but because it is an easier alternative."

So - I actually don't advocate for ich management. But, if you go that route - the best filtration would be a diatom filter, followed by a canister filter with decreasing pore size. For reef safe ich medications, many on the market are just snake oil, sold because there is no oversight. The others have some theoretical benefit, but are applied at questionably low doses (to make them reef safe). Polyp Lab medic is a peroxide salt that might have some benefit.

Jay

 

[bshonesy]

Hi, well, I don't actually "endorse" ich management as a technique. The text I posted was from my disease book (in press) where I discuss various ich treatments. At the end, I sort of say, if you can't or won't do a proper treatment, here is an alternative. In the text above this is alluded to: "It is popular not because it works well, but because it is an easier alternative."

So - I actually don't advocate for ich management. But, if you go that route - the best filtration would be a diatom filter, followed by a canister filter with decreasing pore size. For reef safe ich medications, many on the market are just snake oil, sold because there is no oversight. The others have some theoretical benefit, but are applied at questionably low doses (to make them reef safe). Polyp Lab medic is a peroxide salt that might have some benefit.

Jay

Thanks Jay. I get it and agree with you. So much so that I have gone fallow twice for 90 days a pop, and it still came back. I’ve done cell culture work for many years, so I like to think I know good aseptic technique, which is essentially what biosecurity is, and I never used the same tools or unwashed hands on both tanks (or water mixing station), and went to great lengths to keep things separated. I have a lot of live rock in the DT and sump, and maybe I didn’t siphon my substrate enough. In any case, I need a break, and I lost more fish from the QT stress than the ICH so I think my fish need a break too. I’ll get it out for good in the near future. I’m trying peroxide dosing right now so I’ll skip the peroxide salt, and will implement these other ideas. Thanks for sharing your expertise.

 

[AquaLifeStudio]

Once ish is in you tank it’s in there for good unless you run such big UV you shock a kill your coral (done that in my newbie days). I have ich in my tank rn cause I bought a powder blue which are known for beings ich magnets but I fed selcon and Kent garlic with my pe mysis and wouod switch which one I use every other day. None of my other fish got any ich one them. I was surprised because my purple tang got it when I added a clown tang but. Now I kno some ppl are thinking ever heard of a qt tank you moron and yes, yes I have. I just never got around to setting one up and I swear by selcon and garlic but mostly selcon I put 3 full eye droppers off in my foot and I got a 205. I don’t run a uv only run dr Tim’s nitrate and phosphate pellets which I must say very surprised how well it worked sorry for getting off topic just my 2 cents not worth much but take from it what u choose.

A proper fallow period will eliminate saltwater ich from the tank. I practice 76 days without fish and that's worked every time.

The key is understanding the life cycle of the parasite and how to interrupt it.

 

[AquaLifeStudio]

Thanks Jay. I get it and agree with you. So much so that I have gone fallow twice for 90 days a pop, and it still came back. I’ve done cell culture work for many years, so I like to think I know good aseptic technique, which is essentially what biosecurity is, and I never used the same tools or unwashed hands on both tanks (or water mixing station), and went to great lengths to keep things separated. I have a lot of live rock in the DT and sump, and maybe I didn’t siphon my substrate enough. In any case, I need a break, and I lost more fish from the QT stress than the ICH so I think my fish need a break too. I’ll get it out for good in the near future. I’m trying peroxide dosing right now so I’ll skip the peroxide salt, and will implement these other ideas. Thanks for sharing your expertise.

When you pulled the fish from the tank, where did you put them?

How far away from the display tank were these fish?

How long were the fish treated with medication, copper or CP?

Did you remove the medication from the QT tank after the treatment period?

 

[bshonesy]

When you pulled the fish from the tank, where did you put them?

How far away from the display tank were these fish?

How long were the fish treated with medication, copper or CP?

Did you remove the medication from the QT tank after the treatment period?

Treated in a Qt tank with a tight fitting glass lid, about 10 ft away but same room, I guess it’s not impossible that aerosols carried it back to the DT, but I would think improbable. CP 2.5 for 45 days plus another 45 w/o (a couple weeks with praziquantel in there for some flukes that popped up). Maybe they still had it and the stress of going back to the DT allowed it to re-emerge? Thanks for helping me think it through.

 

[AquaLifeStudio]

Treated in a Qt tank with a tight fitting glass lid, about 10 ft away but same room, I guess it’s not impossible that aerosols carried it back to the DT, but I would think improbable. CP 2.5 for 45 days plus another 45 w/o (a couple weeks with praziquantel in there for some flukes that popped up). Maybe they still had it and the stress of going back to the DT allowed it to re-emerge? Thanks for helping me think it through.

Was the QT @ therapeutic levels when you removed the fish and placed them back in the Display? If not, that was your likely failure.

These are my rules:

When fish are quarantined less than a 76 day period, they must remain in a therapeutic level of medication for a minimum period of time. I typically suggest 14 days. You must not allow the medication to fall below the minimum therapeutic level while they remain in the tank. If it does, you start over from day 1.

If the later 45 days was below the minimum therapeutic level, and you didn't transfer the fish to a different and sterile tank before the medication fell below therapeutic, that's likely what allowed the ich to return.

 

[bshonesy]

Was the QT @ therapeutic levels when you removed the fish and placed them back in the Display? If not, that was your likely failure.

These are my rules:

When fish are quarantined less than a 76 day period, they must remain in a therapeutic level of medication for a minimum period of time. I typically suggest 14 days. You must not allow the medication to fall below the minimum therapeutic level while they remain in the tank. If it does, you start over from day 1.

If the later 45 days was below the minimum therapeutic level, and you didn't transfer the fish to a different and sterile tank before the medication fell below therapeutic, that's likely what allowed the ich to return.

So you’re saying that they can survive past 45 days in copper?

 

[AquaLifeStudio]

So you’re saying that they can survive past 45 days in copper?

In a way, yes.

Meds only have effect on theronts, the free swimmers. If any of the other stages were in QT, meds do not kill these.