Accuracy of Neptune Systems Trident NP

[Doctorgori]

Just my sample:
I have 2 NP units on 2 tanks;
neither nitrate or phosphate matches Hanna …
one one unit the Nitrate didn’t even register until after the update but I’m not sure that was the actual fix…
If things change I’ll repost somewhere

 

[areefer01]

I have no evidence the tubing contaminates the sample. At one point I replaced the tubing with BPT tubing, and had the same result. The phosphate reading decreased day by day.

Thanks for the information. So in your use case the NP has a lower phosphate reading day over day if I read it correctly, yes? Is the fall off the same amount every day? Curious what would happen if you mixed up a gallon of salt in a clean bucket, tossed the sample line in there, and let it run two tests over the normal schedule.

 

[Gho5t]

Current results today... still spot on

 

[Cranie]

I own a LOT of Neptune gear however I have to say the NP is a pile of hot garbage and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Reefbot should arrive this week so hopefully I won't need the NP much longer.

 

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

Thanks for the information. So in your use case the NP has a lower phosphate reading day over day if I read it correctly, yes? Is the fall off the same amount every day? Curious what would happen if you mixed up a gallon of salt in a clean bucket, tossed the sample line in there, and let it run two tests over the normal schedule.

The graph below shows the difference between the tester phosphate reading and actual tank phosphate over time. The offset at the time was 0.425, so I had to subtract 0.425 from the tester readings to get the correct phosphate level. The first sample on 7/13 matched the tank, and over the next few days, the tester values went down as the tubing started to absorb phosphate from the water flowing through it.

It’s really unfortunate that the tester typically has an offset error AND a reduction of phosphate from the tubing. This really complicates the situation.

Example: Gho5t just posted a 0.15 reading that matches Hanna. I certainly wish him the best, and hope his tester is reading 100% accurate. But for that to happen, his Offset Error would have to be 0, and there would have to be zero reduction of phosphate in the tubing.

It’s certainly possible, but he could also have the same 0.15 reading if his Offset Error is 0.15, and there is a 100% reduction of phosphate in the tubing. And you can get the same 0.15 reading from any combination between these two extremes.

Without tracking swings, or spiking a sample, there is no way to tell if the tester is actually accurate, or the reading is simply a fluke. Unfortunately these NP testers cannot be trusted.

The good news is I continue to experiment with the tester pulling a fresh tank sample without tubing, and test results continue to be within 0.01ppm at 0.06 ppm tank water.

I recently had a phosphate drop to 0.040, and the NP pick it up! I dosed some Reef-Roids, and it also picked up the boost back to 0.060. It was quite impressive that the NP tracked it perfectly. There is hope

 

[Doctorgori]

It’s really unfortunate that the tester typically has an offset error AND a reduction of phosphate from the tubing. This really complicates the situation.

what? So the tubing in theTrident is jacking with the readings?
I must be misunderstanding

 

[areefer01]

The graph below shows the difference between the tester phosphate reading and actual tank phosphate over time. The offset at the time was 0.425, so I had to subtract 0.425 from the tester readings to get the correct phosphate level. The first sample on 7/13 matched the tank, and over the next few days, the tester values went down as the tubing started to absorb phosphate from the water flowing through it.

It’s really unfortunate that the tester typically has an offset error AND a reduction of phosphate from the tubing. This really complicates the situation.

Example: Gho5t just posted a 0.15 reading that matches Hanna. I certainly wish him the best, and hope his tester is reading 100% accurate. But for that to happen, his Offset Error would have to be 0, and there would have to be zero reduction of phosphate in the tubing.

It’s certainly possible, but he could also have the same 0.15 reading if his Offset Error is 0.15, and there is a 100% reduction of phosphate in the tubing. And you can get the same 0.15 reading from any combination between these two extremes.

Without tracking swings, or spiking a sample, there is no way to tell if the tester is actually accurate, or the reading is simply a fluke. Unfortunately these NP testers cannot be trusted.

The good news is I continue to experiment with the tester pulling a fresh tank sample without tubing, and test results continue to be within 0.01ppm at 0.06 ppm tank water.

I recently had a phosphate drop to 0.040, and the NP pick it up! I dosed some Reef-Roids, and it also picked up the boost back to 0.060. It was quite impressive that the NP tracked it perfectly. There is hope

Thank you for the details. The part that is confusing me is that it is trending down after each test. If this was a possibility of the sample line contamination I would think we would see more of it. I see a lot of users comparing it to Hanna's kit and a offset but not result after result going to 0.

Have you given this information to Neptune if you have a support case open? Curious as to what they think about it.

Are you dosing anything and if so in what area (before or after NP sample line)?

Thank you again.

 

[David_CO]

I had pretty good success with my first set of reagents........that all stopped when i swapped reagents after 2 months. I went from 20ppm nitrate and 0.10 phosphate according to the NP (which correlates within reason to other trusted test kits) to 60 nitrate and 0 phosphate on the new reagents. I've been working with Neptune support providing logs, doing a calibration, taking pics etc.......they have now asked to initiate an RMA. At this time I can no longer recommend anyone purchase an NP. Im really surprised they didnt want me to try another batch of reagents before intiating an RMA, makes me think they know something is wrong.

 

[Gho5t]

The graph below shows the difference between the tester phosphate reading and actual tank phosphate over time. The offset at the time was 0.425, so I had to subtract 0.425 from the tester readings to get the correct phosphate level. The first sample on 7/13 matched the tank, and over the next few days, the tester values went down as the tubing started to absorb phosphate from the water flowing through it.

It’s really unfortunate that the tester typically has an offset error AND a reduction of phosphate from the tubing. This really complicates the situation.

Example: Gho5t just posted a 0.15 reading that matches Hanna. I certainly wish him the best, and hope his tester is reading 100% accurate. But for that to happen, his Offset Error would have to be 0, and there would have to be zero reduction of phosphate in the tubing.

It’s certainly possible, but he could also have the same 0.15 reading if his Offset Error is 0.15, and there is a 100% reduction of phosphate in the tubing. And you can get the same 0.15 reading from any combination between these two extremes.

Without tracking swings, or spiking a sample, there is no way to tell if the tester is actually accurate, or the reading is simply a fluke. Unfortunately these NP testers cannot be trusted.

The good news is I continue to experiment with the tester pulling a fresh tank sample without tubing, and test results continue to be within 0.01ppm at 0.06 ppm tank water.

I recently had a phosphate drop to 0.040, and the NP pick it up! I dosed some Reef-Roids, and it also picked up the boost back to 0.060. It was quite impressive that the NP tracked it perfectly. There is hope

I fully understand what you are saying with the deviation, however how would the Hanna and the NP have the same deviation over weeks of tests? This wasn't a 1 off test.. I have tested the comparison 10 times now and they have been in alignment (within .01) with each test.

If the NP has an offset error, then what would cause the Hanna to have the exact same offset error over multiple tests?

Personally, I never take any of the tests at face value. I always use them to spot trends. When my PO4 was rising, the Hanna was rising with the same values. I've been testing and troubleshooting a gradual rise in PO4 over weeks now. Even treated with LC at one point when they were getting significantly high and the NP and Hanna both tested a reduced PO4 level as expected based on the LC dosage.

I'm not saying that anyone here is doing something wrong.. I'm just posting my experience. Trust me.. I would much rather be lucky winning the lottery than getting a working NP. LOL

But for what it's worth.. mine does seem right so far.

 

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

Thank you for the details. The part that is confusing me is that it is trending down after each test. If this was a possibility of the sample line contamination I would think we would see more of it. I see a lot of users comparing it to Hanna's kit and a offset but not result after result going to 0.

Have you given this information to Neptune if you have a support case open? Curious as to what they think about it.

Are you dosing anything and if so in what area (before or after NP sample line)?

Thank you again.

Numerous people have posting their reading are elevated from Hanna readings (offset issue), and also their readings go down for no reason over time (likely the sample tubing issue) when compared to Hanna. But while the readings go down, they don't necessarily go to zero.

I dose into the sump return pump box, and it's not possible for the NP to pick up the dose.

I have not contacted Neptune. It seems like they have not been very helpful. But I really like the tester, and was determined to find the root cause of the issues, and get mine working.

 

[areefer01]

Numerous people have posting their reading are elevated from Hanna readings (offset issue), and also their readings go down for no reason over time (likely the sample tubing issue) when compared to Hanna. But while the readings go down, they don't necessarily go to zero.

I dose into the sump return pump box, and it's not possible for the NP to pick up the dose.

I have not contacted Neptune. It seems like they have not been very helpful. But I really like the tester, and was determined to find the root cause of the issues, and get mine working.

My comment about reaching out to them is your thought on the sample line.

 

[daniel_mourra]

Any updates? So does it work or not?

 

[Gho5t]

So with the first set of reagents the NP was spot on all the way till I had to change them. When I changed the regents it went all over the place... NO3 went from 5 to 75 and PO4 went from .08 to .26. I re-primed the lines and ran the calibration and it went back to testing within margin of error with the Hanna and has been consistent since.

I have no clue why it went crazy when changing the reagents. I replaced them as soon as it said a test failed. I have heard of issues with the regular Tridents sitting too long with a failed test where because it's not running test the fluid in the lines dries up and causes issues. My LFS said they send back quite a few Tridents for their service clients per month for this issue since the tank owners are hands off and by the time they get to them the lines are dried up. Not sure something similar happened here but in about another month I'll know if it's going to be a recurring issue.

 

[David_CO]

Tons of people are having issues on reagent swap (myself included). I’m on my second unit and it’s just as bad as the first after the initial reagent change. I would like my money back for this paperweight at this point.

 

[Jimbo327]

I was really hoping Neptune would have figured it out by now. Because they are still selling these units to customers, I'm not sure they should be when I see so many posts of problems. I think one of their biggest issues is the customer needing to mix 2 reagent together, you introduce more room for error. Not sure if they can redesign their reagents to make it so users don't need to mix anything on their own.

 

[areefer01]

I think one of their biggest issues is the customer needing to mix 2 reagent together, you introduce more room for error.

There is no room for error here in my opinion. You are taking a small bottle clearly labeled 3b and pouring it into the 3a reagent bottle. Cap, gently swirl, then set aside for 25 minutes. That is it as far as reagents go.

There is another step for the waste neutralizer. Open the bottle that is labeled waste neutralizer, fill it with tap water or rodi water, shake it vigorously, then pour into the waste container.

Nothing really difficult. I agree that it isn't as simple as the original Trident but I don't see it being a big deal. Set a timer for the 3a reagent step and do that one first.

 

[Mkeller088]

My NItrates have been accurate. PO4 has consistantly been about .36 high no matter what I do.

Same here. Hanna 1.0- Trident .32. Who’s right?

 

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

Every time I change the Trident NP reagents, I get a different phosphate reading.
The 3A bottle is used for the phosphate test, and there appears to be a serious quality control issue.

First batch – LOT CODE = 4GF0272 - Read 0.50 ppm high
Second batch – LOT CODE = 4GF1080 - Read 0.02 ppm high
Third batch – LOT CODE = 4GF1080 - Reads 0.02 ppm low

The vial on the left is 5ml of reagent 3A from my first batch that read 0.50 ppm high.
The vial on the right is 5ml of reagent 3A from my third batch that reads 0.02 ppm low.

These samples were taken right out of the bottles. The darker the test solution, the higher the Trident NP phosphate reading. It’s quite obvious the vile on the left with the LOT CODE = 4GF0272 is too dark, and quite defective.

The reagent issue is in addition to an issue where the black tubing that draws the sample water grows a biofilm inside that reduces the phosphate of the sample water as it flows to the tester. My testing revealed the tubing was reducing the phosphate around 0.04 ppm.

So if you think you’re going to accurately measure your 0.04 ppm phosphate in your SPS tank, it's not going to happen.

Neptune really needs to get their act together.

 

[Etto]

There is no room for error here in my opinion. You are taking a small bottle clearly labeled 3b and pouring it into the 3a reagent bottle. Cap, gently swirl, then set aside for 25 minutes. That is it as far as reagents go.

There is another step for the waste neutralizer. Open the bottle that is labeled waste neutralizer, fill it with tap water or rodi water, shake it vigorously, then pour into the waste container.

Nothing really difficult. I agree that it isn't as simple as the original Trident but I don't see it being a big deal. Set a timer for the 3a reagent step and do that one first.

I'm just reading the posts trying to make a decision if I want to pull the trigger on the NP. Are you saying that you still have to mix reagents every time you run a test with the NP? If so what is the advantage over just a Hanna?
Thanks

 

[areefer01]

I'm just reading the posts trying to make a decision if I want to pull the trigger on the NP. Are you saying that you still have to mix reagents every time you run a test with the NP? If so what is the advantage over just a Hanna?
Thanks

The post in question is about reagent preparation for installation or replacement when empty. It is not a daily task. One time upon installation or replacement.