A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[Lasse]

I was thinking he should move it into his sump on day 9....

Yes - thats an option In this case - I would give these fish a recocver period ( from the immunosuppressive copper) and a slow vaccination of the DT water,

Sincerely Lasse

 

[KJoFan]

My opinion is that if you've already started I wouldn't move them out until day 9 at therapeutic copper. That will still take care of velvet and ich. And yes, I am allowed to say this because I've already admitted to being a hypocrite. ;Sorry

Has this become Hypocrites Anonymous (or not so anonymous...)?

If you want to know my experiences (which not is scientific proven to be right) they will come here. When a fish has died for me in connection with an introduction – it has always been the newcomer – never ever the old fishes. If you stop the copper – let it go some time before introduction. During that time – do WC with help of water from your DT every second to third day – small in the beginning. If you get any indication of disease – you can treat in your QT

Sincerely Lasse

That's actually a pretty good idea. I haven't fully decided how I'm going to proceed with the transition to the DT, but I won't just plop them in there tonight when I get home. I'll formulate some kind of plan to maybe safeguard a bit against disease rearing it's head.

I was thinking She should move it into Her sump on day 9....

Fixed that for you.

I quarantined for 76 days to remove ich and velvet form my display tank. I got rid of the Velvelt which is what killed like 4 of my fish. My tank currently has ich and only appears on the purple tang. By appear I mean like one or two dots at a time. I’m not worried about ich but velvet is a different monster. I still quarantine every piece of coral for 45 days and quarantine fish. I don’t wanna introduce any new strains of ich or velvet. I focus on feeding a lot and use LRS soaked in selcon

There's another thing I don't do. QT of corals and inverts. It's like the Wild West over here!

Yes - thats an option In this case - I would give these fish a recocver period ( from the immunosuppressive copper) and a slow vaccination of the DT water,

Sincerely Lasse

Recovery period they shall have. ;Nurse

 

[Brew12]

Fixed that for you.

;Sorry;Sorry;Sorry;Sorry

I knew that.... ;Eggonface;Facepalm

 

[Paul Sands]

Fish are designed to thrive with low levels of parasites in their system.

Here’s another one where you give the impression that being infected with parasites like ich and velvet improves a fish’s overall health.

If that isn’t the argument that you meant to make, you probably should try to be more clear.

 

[Brew12]

Here’s another one where you give the impression that being infected with parasites like ich and velvet improves a fish’s overall health.

It does improve their overall health. If they aren't continuously exposed for around 6 months they can lose their innate immunity to that parasite. This would make them more susceptible to succumb to future exposures to those parasites.
If your immunity acquired via vaccination to measles stopped working, would you consider that good or bad to your overall health?

 

[Lasse]

I do not know if I am the only one to have a feeling that it is people picking lemons here - when they lack own cherries.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[fishybizzness]

Very good article by the way.
I am not against observation either but I also think it is not needed unless you get a fish that is in the process of getting last rites.
But I am totally against propalactic (I can't spell that) treatment because just about all of those treatments are poisons, especially copper and the fish is already stressed. Many of those treatments would kill or at least reduce the gut bacteria of the fish and "all" the new research tells us that gut bacteria is what keeps our fish healthy and it is very important to the immune system just as it is in us. There is a reason we feel lousy after we take a full regiment of antibiotics and why doctors are reluctant to dose us with those any more.

Fresh water is also very stressful for a fish because they are osmotic regulated creatures and the salt level inside the fish is an important parameter just as it is in us. But we have to eat salt if we want it. A fishes skin is semi porous and the fish gains or loses salt through it's skin and even more so through it's gills. Fresh water will seriously upset this delicate balance and I am sure the fish is looking for some Alka Seltzer after that. I realize it is only for a few minutes to kill flukes, but I "think" it would be very stressful, especially because many times the fish will lay on the bottom praying for death after that.

I also don't believe flukes are a big deal because in all my years I have never seen a fish die from them and I never tried to remove them. They seem to get bored in a tank and fall off the fish anyway with no stress to the fish that I know of.

After being in the hobby a few years I learned that the best most natural way is to get the fish very healthy by using food with live bacteria in them and the fishes immune system will take care of the fish as it does in the sea.

I added about 7 fish in the last year, one spotted box fish last week. They all ate right away and whatever spots they had, just disappeared.

So if all the spots disappeared, is it now just a plain box fish instead of a spotted one?[emoji4]

 

[fishybizzness]

I really wonder how many of you have children that are sick all of the time because you keep them too clean.

As a kid we were encouraged to play outside in the dirt and nature! I Also encouraged my 4 kids to do the same and they haven't turned out to bad at all!

 

[fishybizzness]

Hey @ngoodermuth I found this that you might be interested in regarding your post on what a new reefer should do where they don't have much coral yet... maybe Gorgonians can be the answer!

They are relatively easy to keep, and in addition to eating parasites through water filtering they may also offer anti-bacterial properties!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1xdqLPXPkjr0nxcwBmqqmWc/filming-self-medicating-dolphins
"Studies on gorgonians have proven that they are covered in a mucus layer that contains anti-microbial properties. Therefore when the dolphins run through the gorgonian it is likely this mucus will be applied to their body, which in turn, could potentially protect them from infection."

My doctor fish and wrasses are always swimming in and out of my sea whips!

 

[HomeSlizzice]

I do not know if I am the only one to have a feeling that it is people picking lemons here - when they lack own cherries.

Sincerely Lasse

Haha agreed!

 

[Paul Sands]

I did say that. The adaptive immunity is pathogen specific. Exposure to a parasite is how you strengthen it. By stating "Adaptive immunity" it was qualified to mean the pathogen it was exposed to. If it wasn't parasite specific I would have referenced the innate immunity.

So again... where is this statement wrong?

Because you stated that the entire adaptive immunity system of a fish is somehow made stronger by a fish being exposed to a single pathogen. That’s what you wrote.

If you had meant that an adaptive immune response to a SPECIFIC PATHOGEN was increased by previous exposure to that specific pathogen, I would have expected that is what you would have typed.

 

[Brew12]

Because you stated that the entire adaptive immunity system of a fish is somehow made stronger by a fish being exposed to a single pathogen. That’s what you wrote.

If you had meant that an adaptive immune response to a SPECIFIC PATHOGEN was increased by previous exposure to that specific pathogen, I would have expected that is what you would have typed.

Your lack of understanding that the ADAPTIVE immune system response can only impact a single pathogen isn't a failure in my explanation. Saying an adaptive response to a specific pathogen would be redundant. Any response that can impact multiple pathogens is part of the INNATE immune system. I clearly said ADAPTIVE.

 

[Paul Sands]

It does improve their overall health. If they aren't continuously exposed for around 6 months they can lose their innate immunity to that parasite. This would make them more susceptible to succumb to future exposures to those parasites.
If your immunity acquired via vaccination to measles stopped working, would you consider that good or bad to your overall health?

Again, no it doesn’t improve their overall health to be exposed to a disease. They become more resistant to the disease. That doesn’t mean they are healthier.

 

[MnFish1]

The higher parasite burden is what pushed the stores to going this route imo. The copper should reduce the total number of parasites present (killing off the weaker ones) but won't eliminate any strains at the levels I've seen used. My LFS uses around 0.1ppm cupramine, so not close therapeutic. The lower dose is used to allow more copper sensitive fish to be kept in the system without impacting coloration or feeding habits. If they kept therapeutic levels it would also limit how long they could keep the fish.
As for how it started? My guess is one store gave it a try and felt like it helped reduce mortality rates and it spread. I can't imagine any scientific support to such a bad practice.

So (Im not a cupramine expert - the therapeutic dose is .25 ppm (I think)).

SO - I called Seachem - and had an extremely interesting talk with their scientist

Your post somewhere page 9 or so:
"However, any pathogen you add to the tank will make the survivors stronger by boosting their adaptive immunity."

This statement has not qualifications that you meant the pathogen that they were exposed to. You said adaptive immunity. Period.

I noted that this was a broad statement without any limitations that seems to indicate that exposing fish to pathogens make them stronger in general. You threw out a few papers in response, which numerous people have said don't actually prove the point you claim. There are literally pages and pages of this thread where people other than me disputed this and you continued to argue that exposing fish to pathogens makes them stronger in general.

Again, we can easily prevent ich in our tanks via TTM and quarantine of all inverts. What point is there in subjecting a tank to ich if you can simply prevent it from ever being there in the first place?

Search this forum for those that think that TTM is immoral.... - frankly I do not believe that it is - but there is always a different opinion. TTM - also doesn't prevent bacterial infection - and if not done often does not affect velvet. The fact is - probably - that chemoprophylaxis in fish in general is not necessary (note this doesnt mean QT isn't necessary). Again - what is your theory - or point? I wish you would stop just questioning everyone else - as compared to you just saying what YOU think.

 

[Paul Sands]

Your lack of understanding that the ADAPTIVE immune system response can only impact a single pathogen isn't a failure in my explanation. Saying a an adaptive response to a specific pathogen would be redundant. Any response that can impact multiple pathogens is part of the INNATE immune system. I clearly said ADAPTIVE.

Actually, it isn’t redundant. It’s called being clear.

 

[MnFish1]

I do not know if I am the only one to have a feeling that it is people picking lemons here - when they lack own cherries.

Sincerely Lasse

Is that one of those Swedish sayings????

 

[MnFish1]

Actually, it isn’t redundant. It’s called being clear.

I disagree - I think you are just asking questions - and criticizing without suggesting your OWN theories or proposals. This is not designed to be offensive to you - but - that said - its getting old. Between you and the other poster - WHAT ARE YOUR SUGGESTIONS IN THIS TOPIC?

 

[drstardust]

Is that one of those Swedish sayings????

I think so, and I like it

 

[Lasse]

No - but it will be fore sure - it was a late night inspiration my sort of humor

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

"How will we react when praziquantel-resistant flukes become the norm"
I have this now actually. Went through two rounds of Prazi dosed per instructions to the estimated water volume minus live rock displacement. Did nothing to the flukes. Prazi is supposedly "mostly reef safe" it killed two cleaner shrimp, a coral banded shrimp, 8 out of 10 Acros. Chalice frags, birds nest frag, zoas are fine. So much for that idea.