A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine
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Paul B
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I said that because it is a good article. If I thought it was a lousy article I would have called you a Sissy Girly Man or something of that nature. But you are not. It is a good article.
I believe fish will have a stronger immune system the more parasites you have in the tank. Tanks with no parasites will have fish with almost no immunity against them. It is natural for fish to harbor parasites and they always did. Parasites have been with us since we crawled out of the swamp, hitch hiked on a meteorite or survived the Great flood with Noah depending on what you believe.
I could quote my own book as a reference, but that would just be silly.
I believe this is why so many kids today have allergies and stay home from school all the time. Not enough dirt growing up and not enough playing outside. They won't boost their immunity by texting.
When I was in grade school, I never heard of an allergy and no one was allergic to peanuts. Now about half the kids seem to be allergic. My Grand Daughter is allergic to everything and lives in Manhattan.
I spent my youth playing in dirt in lots, collecting earthworms and drinking water from a lake. I never get sick and almost never had to take off from school unless I got bit by an Aardvark or Duck Billed Platypus.
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Brew12
Electrical Gru
Absolutely. I guess that is another good sign of copper usage. Well, other than the small separate invert section, where they also have mandarin.
bluprntguy
Well-Known Member
I don't have access to the full article, but the summary seems really clear (emphasis mine):
Acquired protection to Cryptocaryon irritans has been demonstrated for the first time, using the grey mullet,Chelon labrosus, as an experimental host. Fish, immunized by controlled infections, established immunity against challenge infections with C. irritans, the degree of protection correlating with both intensity and exposure levels, with relatively few fish developing full protection. Protection lasted for six months in the absence of re-exposure to the parasite. There was no evidence of cross-protection in mullet against infection with the closely related fish parasite, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis.
A reasonable person would see that and say that this definitively proves that exposing fish to CI doesn't make them stronger against anything other the CI (for a short time). I can't even imagine what could possibly be in this study that @Brew12 thinks it proves his point, but it seems like he's somehow come to a conclusion that is opposite from what the actual researchers found.
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Brew12
Electrical Gru
You are trying to make it look like I have argued for something I never have. I have only stated that exposure to a parasite give it a resistance to that parasite. That makes the fish stronger. If you take a fish that is immune to CI and one that is not immune to CI and expose them to CI, which one is more likely to survive?
The immune one you seem to claim is weaker?
The non immune one that you seem to claim is stronger for never having been exposed to the parasite?
The studies clearly show fish that have survived exposure to a parasite develop an immunity that makes subsequent exposure to that parasite less likely to be lethal. I don't see how you can argue that this weakens the fish instead of making it stronger.
If you think I have claimed anything other than that, feel free to go back through my posts and quote it. I have never claimed that adaptive immunity against one parasite had any impact on it's adaptive immunity to another parasite.
If you ask me - this is the real reason why they run low copper - not needing much of cleaning - but that they can´t say
Sincerely Lasse
Paul Sands
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I believe fish will have a stronger immune system the more parasites you have in the tank. Tanks with no parasites will have fish with almost no immunity against them. It is natural for fish to harbor parasites and they always did. Parasites have been with us since we crawled out of the swamp, hitch hiked on a meteorite or survived the Great flood with Noah depending on what you believe.
I could quote my own book as a reference, but that would just be silly.
I appreciate that you noted that this is what you believe. There is a difference between a belief based on observations and a fact based on science.
That said, it’s natural for humans to harbor parasites and diseases as well. Our life expectancies and quality of life have been increased exponentially by things like treated drinking water, soap, and vaccinations. It seems, if we are able, we should try to improve the life of fish that are in our care, not just put them in a box and let them battle diseases that are easily prevented.
Paul B
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My fish only die of old age, some of them are 28 years old and still spawning. Virtually all my paired fish are spawning and have been for the 48 years my tank has been running.
I have been doing this much longer than the scientists you quoted in any study and for some of their findings I say they are wrong. You can tell them I said that and give them my social security number if you like.
Posting something in a scientific journal or any place else doesn't make it right. I even wrote a book, but that doesn't make my theories right. Just my opinions. Everything I have ever written and submitted anywhere has been published as fact. I have no degrees and I could be making this stuff up or reading it on the back of a bubble gum wrapper
(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
According to these authors "probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance."The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes. End Quote
I have been doing this much longer than the scientists you quoted in any study and for some of their findings I say they are wrong. You can tell them I said that and give them my social security number if you like.
Posting something in a scientific journal or any place else doesn't make it right. I even wrote a book, but that doesn't make my theories right. Just my opinions. Everything I have ever written and submitted anywhere has been published as fact. I have no degrees and I could be making this stuff up or reading it on the back of a bubble gum wrapper
(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
According to these authors "probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance."The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes. End Quote
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Paul B
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Our life expectancy has increased because of vaccines and access to medical care that we need because of our weakened immune system. We were also capable of dealing with "natural" substances in drinking water. In the dark ages people probably had a much stronger immune system. They died because they would die from a tooth infection, ear infection, measles, chicken pox, tetanus, plague, being bitten by a duck or having a sword put through your lungs. They died from those things because people from other places came to them and they had no immunity from those pathogens. Native Americans didn't fare to well nor did people in South America as they had no immunity from European diseases. How many times would we have died if it were not for hospitals?
Our immunity is very much diminished due to the cleanliness we now have. For 3 million years no one took a bath. Animals don't bathe. (Well maybe fish do). but we as animals were not designed to be clean. Our society now demands it, but not our immune system that is perfectly capable to deal with diseases that we were naturally exposed to. If that were not true, there would not be any of us here so i guess we would also not have fish and these forums.
bluprntguy
Well-Known Member
Your post somewhere page 9 or so:
"However, any pathogen you add to the tank will make the survivors stronger by boosting their adaptive immunity."
This statement has not qualifications that you meant the pathogen that they were exposed to. You said adaptive immunity. Period.
I noted that this was a broad statement without any limitations that seems to indicate that exposing fish to pathogens make them stronger in general. You threw out a few papers in response, which numerous people have said don't actually prove the point you claim. There are literally pages and pages of this thread where people other than me disputed this and you continued to argue that exposing fish to pathogens makes them stronger in general.
Again, we can easily prevent ich in our tanks via TTM and quarantine of all inverts. What point is there in subjecting a tank to ich if you can simply prevent it from ever being there in the first place?
Probably because I am not a native English speaker I get the impression that the authors say that they could not find evidences of cross-protection in mullet against infection with the closely related fish parasite, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. For me Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is a specific parasite but for you - as a native English speaker (I suppose) it seems that Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is a synonym or acronym for ”against anything other ". I´m sorry that I am so dumb that I do not really understand plain English.
Sincerely Lasse
Paul B
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How many quarantined fish can you show us that are spawning and only dying of old age as they should without ever getting sick?
How many very old tanks have you seen with no problems that have been fully quarantined? Very old is not 6 or 8 years.
I note a very narrow statement here (or I am missreading english again)?
Sincerely Lasse
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Brew12
Electrical Gru
I did say that. The adaptive immunity is pathogen specific. Exposure to a parasite is how you strengthen it. By stating "Adaptive immunity" it was qualified to mean the pathogen it was exposed to. If it wasn't parasite specific I would have referenced the innate immunity.
So again... where is this statement wrong?
KJoFan
Valuable Member
I like to randomly jump in with comments, ha. So, here's another.
I am probably the worst kind of QT'er. I'm not that careful. I'm sure I've cross contaminated my separate QT tanks with my display and vice versa many times over. I haven't introduced the plague to my display up to this point. So, that begs the question, have I even brought in any fish with disease or parasites at a level that will affect those fish I already have? Maybe I have, maybe I haven't.
Why do I think that makes me the worst kind of QT'er? Because I am subjecting my fish to harmful medications and chemicals and keeping them in small boring tanks for weeks on end, but not in a careful way that assures I've eliminated the enemy. So, I'm probably doing it needlessly because I'm not following QT protocols to a T.
That said, my two current QT's with fish in have had copper present for awhile now. Last night I did a large water change on both tanks. I haven't hit the required time length (14 days, 30 days, whatever you follow) of therapeutic copper on either tank but to be quite honest, none of the fish have ever given me reason to believe they are sick or infested with anything. So, I think I'm going to eliminate the copper now, and very shortly move them on into the display.
Am I half scared to do it? Of course. But, I'm also half confident things will go well. Every once in awhile, you just have to take a leap of faith.
I am probably the worst kind of QT'er. I'm not that careful. I'm sure I've cross contaminated my separate QT tanks with my display and vice versa many times over. I haven't introduced the plague to my display up to this point. So, that begs the question, have I even brought in any fish with disease or parasites at a level that will affect those fish I already have? Maybe I have, maybe I haven't.
Why do I think that makes me the worst kind of QT'er? Because I am subjecting my fish to harmful medications and chemicals and keeping them in small boring tanks for weeks on end, but not in a careful way that assures I've eliminated the enemy. So, I'm probably doing it needlessly because I'm not following QT protocols to a T.
That said, my two current QT's with fish in have had copper present for awhile now. Last night I did a large water change on both tanks. I haven't hit the required time length (14 days, 30 days, whatever you follow) of therapeutic copper on either tank but to be quite honest, none of the fish have ever given me reason to believe they are sick or infested with anything. So, I think I'm going to eliminate the copper now, and very shortly move them on into the display.
Am I half scared to do it? Of course. But, I'm also half confident things will go well. Every once in awhile, you just have to take a leap of faith.
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Brew12
Electrical Gru
My opinion is that if you've already started I wouldn't move them out until day 9 at therapeutic copper. That will still take care of velvet and ich. And yes, I am allowed to say this because I've already admitted to being a hypocrite.
;Sorry
If you want to know my experiences (which not is scientific proven to be right) they will come here. When a fish has died for me in connection with an introduction – it has always been the newcomer – never ever the old fishes. If you stop the copper – let it go some time before introduction. During that time – do WC with help of water from your DT every second to third day – small in the beginning. If you get any indication of disease – you can treat in your QT
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
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Brew12
Electrical Gru
I was thinking he should move it into his sump on day 9....
Jurgen Frenz
Active Member
I quarantined for 76 days to remove ich and velvet form my display tank. I got rid of the Velvelt which is what killed like 4 of my fish. My tank currently has ich and only appears on the purple tang. By appear I mean like one or two dots at a time. I’m not worried about ich but velvet is a different monster. I still quarantine every piece of coral for 45 days and quarantine fish. I don’t wanna introduce any new strains of ich or velvet. I focus on feeding a lot and use LRS soaked in selconSeawitch submitted a new Article:
A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine
Little in this hobby stirs up as much emotional debate as discussions on quarantining fish. Threads on prophylactic treatment, ich management, and immunity are regularly hashed out until people are burned out. Passions run high, and for good reason. Both sides of the debate feel their practices are what are best for the fish, and they all care deeply about the health of their fish.
The display tank of @Brew12.
Photo is courtesy of the author, @Brew12, ©2019, All Rights Reserved.
I will admit it. I am a hypocrite when it comes to this topic. Every fish in my tank has been treated with copper or chloroquine phosphate. Most have also been treated with Metroplex, Kanaplex and praziquantel. Almost every fish I have received has had Cryptocaryon irritans, Amyloodinium ocellatum, flukes and/or uronema. I feel that my greatest chance of successfully keeping healthy fish is through treating for these even if they aren’t showing symptoms. And yet, I know that this is not sustainable. The future of this hobby will depend on us getting away from prophylactic treatment. I know this, and yet I can’t get myself to change. I am certainly a hypocrite.
The freshwater world of cichlid-keeping experienced a crisis due to overuse of prophylactic treatment. African cichlids routinely developed bloat. It was found that bloat could be easily treated using metronidazole. With everyone using metronidazole, keeping cichlids became easy. Many fish were saved that otherwise would have been lost to bloat, and the cichlid hobby lived happily ever after.
Except that isn’t how the story went. It took less than 10 years before metronidazole become completely ineffective against cichlid bloat. Fish deaths increased, and the only known cure was no longer effective. Fortunately, it was found that a natural food could be used that would prevent cichlid bloat. This cheap and readily available “cure” was widely adopted and keeping cichlids was easy again. Interestingly enough, several years after it fell out of widespread use, metronidazole became effective again and can still be used to treat acute cases of cichlid bloat.
What are we going to do in this hobby when copper no longer kills ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) or velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) at levels that aren’t also fatal to the fish? How will we react when praziquantel-resistant flukes become the norm or when internal parasites and bacterial infections no longer respond to metronidazole or kanamycin? I believe this is inevitable, and the more widely used these products are the sooner it will happen. I feel we need to start planning for this sooner rather than later.
An African cichlid, Cyphotilapia frontosa.
This is a royalty-free photo courtesy of Christy Hammer from Pixabay.
Fortunately, we do have people who have successfully kept fish without prophylactic treatment that we may be able to learn from. I’ve tried to gather as much information as I could from them and figure out what they have in common; I wanted to share my observations.
Fish Nutrition:
The immune system of a fish is a fascinating thing. This immune system is fueled by the food the fish consumes. It is more than having the right amount of proteins, fats, vitamins and minerals although those are also important. Gut microbiota (probiotics) play a critical role in the health of a fish. The most reliable way of supplying microbiota is through fresh live foods. That isn’t an option for many of us but frozen foods can be almost as good. All frozen foods made from quality ingredients will contain some of the necessary bacteria. Some frozen food suppliers, such as LRS Foods, add probiotics to their foods prior to freezing. It is important to minimize the number of times the food is thawed and re-frozen as each cycle will kill additional bacteria. There is nothing wrong with using pellets or flake food but they should be supplemented by at least some fresh or frozen foods on a regular basis.
Feeding the proper amount is also important. Feed the fish what the fish need to be healthy. If you are cutting back on how much you feed because of algae issues or to try and reduce nitrates you are risking the health of those fish. Find other methods to address those issues. Properly fed does not mean overfed. One feeding a day should be plenty for most fish. A healthy tank will have pods and algae that fish will graze on to supplement what you provide.
Fish Stocking:
Stress is the enemy of the fish immune system. One way we can reduce the stress on fish is to make sure we are stocking our tanks properly. Thanks to the Tang Police, we know we should take the fish size and swimming habits into consideration when determining if a fish is right for whatever size tank we have. We do need to take compatibility into consideration when it comes to stocking our tanks, too.
We need to take aggression level into account. We may not be able to keep two similar fish or two of the same species together. Some wrasses can be mixed easily but other combinations may not work. Do your homework prior to going to the fish store. Keep in mind that we aren’t looking for fish that might be able to get along if we are lucky. We want compatible fish that will live together with minimal stress.
Another thing to keep in mind is that we may need dithering fish to keep stress down. Some fish may hide unless they see other fish swimming around for fear of a predator being nearby. Dithering fish are fish that will more readily swim in the open to reassure the less assertive fish that the area is safe. This has the side benefit of drawing your shy fish out for more public observation.
Acclimation:
We should expect any fish we purchase to be in a stressed and weakened condition. They may have been plucked from the ocean and moved through several systems along with multiple overnight flights over the course of a week. Odds are they have not been fed well during this time, if at all. Unless your system doesn’t have other fish yet, or is extremely peaceful, it may be best to not just dump the fish into your display to fend for itself. At the very least I would recommend using an acclimation box for a few days. This will allow the fish time to adjust to your system and feeding regime without having to compete with its tank mates. Another option, if your system has room for it, is to let the fish acclimate in the sump for a few weeks and then move them into the display tank.
It is also not unusual for local fish stores and wholesale suppliers to keep their fish in water with a salinity below 1.017. Some fish can adapt to a sudden increase in salinity to 1.025 but others may struggle. For this reason alone it may be worth setting up a quarantine system to keep the fish isolated while gradually raising salinity over the course of a week. The fish can also adjust to your feeding habits during this time giving you a better chance for success when you do add them to the display tank.
Aquascaping:
There is more to aquascaping than just making it look nice. We want it to meet the needs of our fish. Are we going to have enough hiding spots for our fish? Do some fish need a sand bed? Will the fish have enough open swimming area? Will they still have enough swimming area when the coral grows in? One sure way to have aggression is to not have a place for each fish to hide at night and aggression leads to sick fish.
System Stability:
This is a very broad term and I am only going to hit the highlights. We should do our best to provide a consistent environment for our fish. We should monitor our systems regularly to ensure all our equipment is operating properly. It is important to keep spare pumps and heaters so we aren’t panicked if we have a failure on a Saturday night. A heater controller is also a great idea as temperature spikes have been known to cause disease outbreaks in tanks. Using an ATO system will help if we can’t regularly top off the tanks manually.
Parasite Control:
If we have weakened fish that we have just added to our system, it will help to have a system in place to help limit the number of parasites that can attack the fish. The most commonly recognized methods of parasite control are ultraviolet (UV) filters and ozone. Most UV filters have two recommended flow rates, one for algae and a slower flow rate for parasites. Ozone generators can be used to damage the cell walls of the parasites and kill them before they infect the fish.
Photo courtesy of @Brew12, ©2019, All Rights Reserved.
Another observation I have made is that people who are successful keeping fish without prophylactic treatment are well populated with corals having large polyps. We know ich and velvet need hard surfaces to attach on so that they may reproduce. Fewer hard surfaces due to coral growth may make the parasites travel further prior to finding a place to attach. Coral polyps are known to eat copepods and other small organisms. I suspect that they also eat the parasites both looking for a place to encyst and again as they get blown around trying to find a host. If I ever do set up a system that doesn’t rely on prophylactic treatment I will load up on these natural mouths by adding Green Star Polyps, Zoanthids, and any other corals that can directly consume small organisms.
Another way parasite control happens in a more mature tank is through "decoy" fish. The free-swimming parasites have no way of knowing which fish in the tank have a strong immune system and which have a weakened one. Parasites that land on a fish with a strong immune system will reproduce in very low numbers, if at all, which will help protect newly added weakened fish while they build their immunity.
The display tank of @Lasse.
This photo is courtesy of and used with permission from @Lasse, ©2019, All Rights Reserved.
And quickly, I want to address something that doesn't work. Cleaner fish and shrimp are not likely to have much impact on the parasites and only clean up the mucus and dead skin from the parasite entry location. There is no evidence that either will eat the parasite itself.
I hope people out there who are struggling with fish disease but don’t want to treat prophylactically have found this useful. And don’t feel like you need to do each of these perfectly, just do as well as you are able. The better you do any of them, the more likely you can have a failure in a different area while keeping your fish healthy. A poorly fed system that is overstocked with aggressive fish will do much worse during a heater failure than a system that is well fed and properly stocked.
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Author Profile: @Brew 12
Steven Frick has spent much more time under the ocean than keeping a small piece of it. He got his start in the electrical field in the US Navy Nuclear Power program as an electrician's mate. After 5 years of service on the submarine USS Henry M Jackson he finished his final 3+ years of service teaching electrical theory at the Knolls Atomic Power Laboratory.
Currently, he runs the projects and maintenance for the power distribution system of one of largest electrical consuming heavy industrial companies in the Southeastern United States. He wrote his sites' electrical safety policies and routinely acts as a consultant to other industrial facilities looking to improve their electrical safety programs. As someone who loves to both learn and teach, he has focused his attention on his newest hobby, reefing.
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Do you just QT or do you use chemoprophylactic QT protocols?
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
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