dbugg
Community Member
(Long story- but I'm a details guy. I need some help from the community!)
I recently bought a house with an alcove under the stairs that was perfect for a nice big reef tank, and a built-in look. I've always wanted one. I was researching for weeks looking to get into the hobby, and find the perfect sized tank and stand. I was searching second-hand sites almost daily. So about a month ago, I finally found a beautiful custom-built tank the same day a frustrated divorcee posted on offer-up. The price was really good considering the quality of the furniture surrounding the tank, and in the pics the tank was loaded with established live rock, a few corals, and had a couple of big fish. I contacted her right away trying not to sound eager. I asked her to confirm the measurements, and it was almost perfect. (I have literally 2 inches of space on the sides and it recessed almost flush into the alcove.) The tank was listed at $1500 with everything included- sump with a good skimmer, expensive (but aging) lighting, RODI equipment, etc. She said it was "his" and she really just wanted it gone. Bingo.
I hung up with her and started calling LFSs to try to find movers to figure a total cost to get setup in my house. As a newbie, I wanted pros, or at least non-newbies. And it's a beast. One of the guys I called ran a mostly solo maintenance business. We chatted and I got a good feeling about him. He said he could meet me at the seller's house later that afternoon when I went to take a look. I told him I thought it was about 180g because the seller didn't know. He warned me that he didn't do any move for under $500, but that he could give a better estimate after we met. Fair enough.
I asked the seller's permission to bring a fish guy. All set.
The house - custom, not quite grand, but upper-upper-middle class - was beautiful, and the tank was no exception (it's twice as good as the picture). She said they paid a master carpenter $5K to build out the tank's maple furniture about 12years ago when they got the tank... and that was completely believable. The woodwork was exceptional. As a DIY guy who's done some (mediocre) finish carpentry, I was super impressed. The tank was a little neglected with hair algae over a lot of the rock, but there was good flow, the clown and fox face (both 5", mature) looked okay, there were a few thriving corals... the skimmer was skimming, etc. (I was ready to buy!) ...The fish guy shows up 20 minutes late, just as it was starting to get awkward. My initial impression in-person matched that of the phone call. Very knowledgeable, personable, and a no non-sense guy. He looks like he's worked hard at this job his whole life. He looks like the kind of guy you'd want helping you move anything, he sounds like the kind of guy anybody could have a beer with. He's smart, but you can tell he does hard work. My kind of guy.
He warned me that I would spend hours scrubbing hair algae with a toothbrush (it was days, but I didn't hate it), and that he wasn't doing it. He kind of gives me the side eye and says "that tank is was way more than 180g." (After some quick measurements of just the tank - not "will it fit perfectly in my house spot" - he says "260 gallons".)
"All the more room for my wonderful livestock plans", I thought.
He confirmed the tank and the furniture was well done, the glass was in great shape, super thick with almost no scratches, and the equipment was solid. He's been in the business over 20 years in the same area. He has a double major in wildlife management and something or another fish-like, and he lights up when I ask questions - explaining everything that has to do with reef biology or chemistry in a way that shows he has true passion for at least that part of his occupation.
I thank her for showing me the tank, and my soon-to-be-hired fish guy and I walk out together. We chat in the driveway and he says it's a big move, but he could do it for $1000. I ask if that's the best he can do, and he says he might do it for $900. The triangle formed by my house, the seller's house, and the fish guy's house (let's call him John) is an equilateral triangle with less than 15-minute sides. I ask him about the value of the tank. He says he's done a ton of deals in the business, and when I finally ask, "If it was your set up, what's the minimum you would take?", he says, "I wouldn't take less than $2K... what's she asking?"
"I'd rather not say right now, but if I pull the trigger you're hired for the move," I said too smugly. I contacted the seller, complained about the cost of the move, and she was happy to make a deal at $1K. I thought about how lucky I was to catch the ad on the first day! I patted myself on the back for being such a thrifty deal-finder! I was PUMPED!
The move day comes, scheduled for 8am, and John and his assistant get started, in my absence, at the seller's house, late. (John is a good guy, but he's like 0-10 on punctuality). He keeps me apprised through the lunchtime- I wasn't expecting to hear much anyway. Then it got later. And later. I still wasn't worried. It got to be about 4pm, and he called and informed me that removing the furniture from the tank and the wall was more difficult than he planned and that obviously things are delayed.
I still wasn't worried. Then it was a couple hours later.
He called and said the tank furniture was actually attached to the other house woodwork/framing/wainscotting/whatever and they're trying to remove the stand "without damaging this beautiful wood".
He calls back about 8pm. He explains that the seller actually contacted the master carpenter, who is now present at the site - the seller and carpenter became friends over the years - and the carpenter is trying to remember back 12 years ago how he built-in the tank stand to help them get the last stubborn tank-to-wall pieces removed without damaging/cutting the stand. John tactfully explains that this job has outgrown his expectations, and that although his quote still stands, if I was understanding, could I consider their now-12-hour day in the payment for services rendered. He needed to pay his assistant for his time, etc.
"Absolutely. I will take care of you. I believe in paying people fairly for their work," I said.
"But what is 'fairly'?" I thought. "Okay, $1200 is probably right."
He asked if they can't get it out soon, would it be okay to cut it out. Sure, it will be hidden in the alcove anyway. The last screws came out while we were on the phone. "See you soon," said John.
He dropped everything off late, and I agreed that the garage was fine for the night and we would set it up in the next couple of days. He asked for at least half of the quoted price so he could pay his assistant.
"No problem. I'm Zelling you $450 now," I said.
He explained that his assistant (longtime friend) had a real job and wouldn't be able to help move in the tank from the garage.
"No problem, I can help," I said.
"Are you sure, this tank is heavier than it looks?"
"Pfft. Yeah, I'm sure," I said.
I've never lifted anything heavier in my life, that wasn't a deadlift or in a squat rack. This is thick glass.
Days later, after both fish died in a Home Depot bucket with a rock and a bubbler, after days of scrubbing rock with a toothbrush, thinking "should these other things stay or get scrubbed?" and "I don't know the difference between a pest and a keeper thingy", after doing water changes in trash cans for the rock, after he replumbs everything... it's time! Time to fill the tank! Time to check the new plumbing! Time to do my aquascape... cycle... FISH AND CORAL!
I get the text while at work. "The plumbing is solid - no leaks. But we have an issue. Call me."
It was a leak at the bottom, between the overflow and the back of the tank. It is a leak at the bottom, between the overflow and the back of the tank. While the tank and stand were in my garage I wiped down the wood and the tank with damp cloth of water/vinegar, proud of my new purchase and excited to start the hobby. The stand was bone dry. The leak happened during the move.
The tank is tall. The overflow is narrow. Reaching the bottom of the overflow without a 2" wide, 4' long arm is impossible. He explained that to do it right meant stripping all the silicone and resealing everything... but he also recommended trying to just put a bunch of silicone down there, and hoping it held. We tried it. Let it cure for a week.
Failed right away.
He recommended more silicone on top of that silicone. He jammed two more whole tubes of silicone down at the bottom of the overflow with a stick and a towel taped to the end. We waited another week for it to cure.
Yesterday before he was on his way over to retest the overflow leak, I couldn't stand the suspense. I poured a half a glass of water down the overflow - which I watched seep out the back of the tank. I texted him and said don't bother, "we might as well have put bubble gum down there"... "silicone on silicone was never gonna seal" ... something like "even if the leak stopped would you put this patched tank in your house with 260 gallons? If not, don't recommend that to me."
I was frustrated. The relationship is strained now. I respect him, and I don't think he's taking advantage of me, but I don't want to risk flooding the house after a patch holds for a couple of weeks, then breaks loose after investing more time and effort in an aquascape, cycling, fish, coral, etc. He was adamant that he told me in the beginning of the leak that the right thing to do was to strip all the silicone, etc. But now I feel like I paid a lot of money for 1000lbs of junk in my house. "Nobody reseals these big tanks," I thought. "I've got a fancy terrarium/reptile tank/eye sore now."
I'm tired of typing and you're probably tired of reading - if you even got this far. So he just now texted that he's trying to do the right thing. He doesn't want to walk away from the job unfinished. I believe him. He has spent a lot of time on this project that he didn't expect to. I've only paid him $450, but at the same time, the agreement was full flowing tank there to full flowing tank here. Two expensive-ish (?) fish are lost. The few corals died within days too. I've done full water changes 4 times for the rock, bought new filters for the RODI, etc. It was supposed to be a one-day move. I think the whole thing was going to be a great deal, but it's still a lot of money for me. I wouldn't get into this hobby at full price. I don't do anything at full price.
I haven't mentioned it yet but I asked him to fill the rest of tank to make sure the overflow was the only leak. Only the overflow box is leaking - out of the back of the bottom seal.
Tonight he said he recommends letting him take the tank back to his garage for a full reseal. He didn't mention cost. Before today, he's tactfully mentioned hoping to still be paid for his time and effort. I don't want to stiff anybody. I don't want to get stiffed.
What would you do??
I recently bought a house with an alcove under the stairs that was perfect for a nice big reef tank, and a built-in look. I've always wanted one. I was researching for weeks looking to get into the hobby, and find the perfect sized tank and stand. I was searching second-hand sites almost daily. So about a month ago, I finally found a beautiful custom-built tank the same day a frustrated divorcee posted on offer-up. The price was really good considering the quality of the furniture surrounding the tank, and in the pics the tank was loaded with established live rock, a few corals, and had a couple of big fish. I contacted her right away trying not to sound eager. I asked her to confirm the measurements, and it was almost perfect. (I have literally 2 inches of space on the sides and it recessed almost flush into the alcove.) The tank was listed at $1500 with everything included- sump with a good skimmer, expensive (but aging) lighting, RODI equipment, etc. She said it was "his" and she really just wanted it gone. Bingo.
I hung up with her and started calling LFSs to try to find movers to figure a total cost to get setup in my house. As a newbie, I wanted pros, or at least non-newbies. And it's a beast. One of the guys I called ran a mostly solo maintenance business. We chatted and I got a good feeling about him. He said he could meet me at the seller's house later that afternoon when I went to take a look. I told him I thought it was about 180g because the seller didn't know. He warned me that he didn't do any move for under $500, but that he could give a better estimate after we met. Fair enough.
I asked the seller's permission to bring a fish guy. All set.
The house - custom, not quite grand, but upper-upper-middle class - was beautiful, and the tank was no exception (it's twice as good as the picture). She said they paid a master carpenter $5K to build out the tank's maple furniture about 12years ago when they got the tank... and that was completely believable. The woodwork was exceptional. As a DIY guy who's done some (mediocre) finish carpentry, I was super impressed. The tank was a little neglected with hair algae over a lot of the rock, but there was good flow, the clown and fox face (both 5", mature) looked okay, there were a few thriving corals... the skimmer was skimming, etc. (I was ready to buy!) ...The fish guy shows up 20 minutes late, just as it was starting to get awkward. My initial impression in-person matched that of the phone call. Very knowledgeable, personable, and a no non-sense guy. He looks like he's worked hard at this job his whole life. He looks like the kind of guy you'd want helping you move anything, he sounds like the kind of guy anybody could have a beer with. He's smart, but you can tell he does hard work. My kind of guy.
He warned me that I would spend hours scrubbing hair algae with a toothbrush (it was days, but I didn't hate it), and that he wasn't doing it. He kind of gives me the side eye and says "that tank is was way more than 180g." (After some quick measurements of just the tank - not "will it fit perfectly in my house spot" - he says "260 gallons".)
"All the more room for my wonderful livestock plans", I thought.
He confirmed the tank and the furniture was well done, the glass was in great shape, super thick with almost no scratches, and the equipment was solid. He's been in the business over 20 years in the same area. He has a double major in wildlife management and something or another fish-like, and he lights up when I ask questions - explaining everything that has to do with reef biology or chemistry in a way that shows he has true passion for at least that part of his occupation.
I thank her for showing me the tank, and my soon-to-be-hired fish guy and I walk out together. We chat in the driveway and he says it's a big move, but he could do it for $1000. I ask if that's the best he can do, and he says he might do it for $900. The triangle formed by my house, the seller's house, and the fish guy's house (let's call him John) is an equilateral triangle with less than 15-minute sides. I ask him about the value of the tank. He says he's done a ton of deals in the business, and when I finally ask, "If it was your set up, what's the minimum you would take?", he says, "I wouldn't take less than $2K... what's she asking?"
"I'd rather not say right now, but if I pull the trigger you're hired for the move," I said too smugly. I contacted the seller, complained about the cost of the move, and she was happy to make a deal at $1K. I thought about how lucky I was to catch the ad on the first day! I patted myself on the back for being such a thrifty deal-finder! I was PUMPED!
The move day comes, scheduled for 8am, and John and his assistant get started, in my absence, at the seller's house, late. (John is a good guy, but he's like 0-10 on punctuality). He keeps me apprised through the lunchtime- I wasn't expecting to hear much anyway. Then it got later. And later. I still wasn't worried. It got to be about 4pm, and he called and informed me that removing the furniture from the tank and the wall was more difficult than he planned and that obviously things are delayed.
I still wasn't worried. Then it was a couple hours later.
He called and said the tank furniture was actually attached to the other house woodwork/framing/wainscotting/whatever and they're trying to remove the stand "without damaging this beautiful wood".
He calls back about 8pm. He explains that the seller actually contacted the master carpenter, who is now present at the site - the seller and carpenter became friends over the years - and the carpenter is trying to remember back 12 years ago how he built-in the tank stand to help them get the last stubborn tank-to-wall pieces removed without damaging/cutting the stand. John tactfully explains that this job has outgrown his expectations, and that although his quote still stands, if I was understanding, could I consider their now-12-hour day in the payment for services rendered. He needed to pay his assistant for his time, etc.
"Absolutely. I will take care of you. I believe in paying people fairly for their work," I said.
"But what is 'fairly'?" I thought. "Okay, $1200 is probably right."
He asked if they can't get it out soon, would it be okay to cut it out. Sure, it will be hidden in the alcove anyway. The last screws came out while we were on the phone. "See you soon," said John.
He dropped everything off late, and I agreed that the garage was fine for the night and we would set it up in the next couple of days. He asked for at least half of the quoted price so he could pay his assistant.
"No problem. I'm Zelling you $450 now," I said.
He explained that his assistant (longtime friend) had a real job and wouldn't be able to help move in the tank from the garage.
"No problem, I can help," I said.
"Are you sure, this tank is heavier than it looks?"
"Pfft. Yeah, I'm sure," I said.
I've never lifted anything heavier in my life, that wasn't a deadlift or in a squat rack. This is thick glass.
Days later, after both fish died in a Home Depot bucket with a rock and a bubbler, after days of scrubbing rock with a toothbrush, thinking "should these other things stay or get scrubbed?" and "I don't know the difference between a pest and a keeper thingy", after doing water changes in trash cans for the rock, after he replumbs everything... it's time! Time to fill the tank! Time to check the new plumbing! Time to do my aquascape... cycle... FISH AND CORAL!
I get the text while at work. "The plumbing is solid - no leaks. But we have an issue. Call me."
It was a leak at the bottom, between the overflow and the back of the tank. It is a leak at the bottom, between the overflow and the back of the tank. While the tank and stand were in my garage I wiped down the wood and the tank with damp cloth of water/vinegar, proud of my new purchase and excited to start the hobby. The stand was bone dry. The leak happened during the move.
The tank is tall. The overflow is narrow. Reaching the bottom of the overflow without a 2" wide, 4' long arm is impossible. He explained that to do it right meant stripping all the silicone and resealing everything... but he also recommended trying to just put a bunch of silicone down there, and hoping it held. We tried it. Let it cure for a week.
Failed right away.
He recommended more silicone on top of that silicone. He jammed two more whole tubes of silicone down at the bottom of the overflow with a stick and a towel taped to the end. We waited another week for it to cure.
Yesterday before he was on his way over to retest the overflow leak, I couldn't stand the suspense. I poured a half a glass of water down the overflow - which I watched seep out the back of the tank. I texted him and said don't bother, "we might as well have put bubble gum down there"... "silicone on silicone was never gonna seal" ... something like "even if the leak stopped would you put this patched tank in your house with 260 gallons? If not, don't recommend that to me."
I was frustrated. The relationship is strained now. I respect him, and I don't think he's taking advantage of me, but I don't want to risk flooding the house after a patch holds for a couple of weeks, then breaks loose after investing more time and effort in an aquascape, cycling, fish, coral, etc. He was adamant that he told me in the beginning of the leak that the right thing to do was to strip all the silicone, etc. But now I feel like I paid a lot of money for 1000lbs of junk in my house. "Nobody reseals these big tanks," I thought. "I've got a fancy terrarium/reptile tank/eye sore now."
I'm tired of typing and you're probably tired of reading - if you even got this far. So he just now texted that he's trying to do the right thing. He doesn't want to walk away from the job unfinished. I believe him. He has spent a lot of time on this project that he didn't expect to. I've only paid him $450, but at the same time, the agreement was full flowing tank there to full flowing tank here. Two expensive-ish (?) fish are lost. The few corals died within days too. I've done full water changes 4 times for the rock, bought new filters for the RODI, etc. It was supposed to be a one-day move. I think the whole thing was going to be a great deal, but it's still a lot of money for me. I wouldn't get into this hobby at full price. I don't do anything at full price.
I haven't mentioned it yet but I asked him to fill the rest of tank to make sure the overflow was the only leak. Only the overflow box is leaking - out of the back of the bottom seal.
Tonight he said he recommends letting him take the tank back to his garage for a full reseal. He didn't mention cost. Before today, he's tactfully mentioned hoping to still be paid for his time and effort. I don't want to stiff anybody. I don't want to get stiffed.
What would you do??
