New tank difficulty

[Obscure]

I am having bad luck with my reef tank. I let it cycle for just more than a month, blind feeding, did water tests. Throughout the cycle process the ammonia went up as normal, nitrite went up as normal but for the last 2 weeks it was stuck with off the charts nitrite and nitrate, and no ammonia. After 5 water changes over a 2 week period, the nitrite and nitrate levels went to 0 overnight which was strange. Algae was growing and over the next few days water changes remained stable at 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, 0 Nitrate and Salinity 1.020

I then added fish, 2x Percula Clownfish, 1x Blue Tang and 1x Moorish Idol. Referred to as CF, BT and MI respectively in rest of post.

The MI wasn't eating normal pellets or frozen food he was eating my corals(destroyed most of my corals), so then I made a mix to try and activate the MI's appetite, I mixed frozen foods(Mysis, Bloodworm etc) mixed with marine pellets all mixed in Seachem Garlic Guard, I froze it then fed it to the tank, very small portions daily. This seemed to have taken his interest, and he started eating it. As well as the BT and the CF were eating away at it too. I put a seaweed clip in there every time at feeding as well and left it for some hours but no one was interested in it, even dipped it in some garlic, still no interest.

However, things started turning upside down after 2 weeks since introducing the fish:
The MI started showing signs that he was struggling to keep himself the right way up by pointing his nose down and only turned right when there would be activity around the tank. I immediately QT'd him but within a day he died, he has some white spots on him but it wasn't the normal type of white spot, it was very faded and under his skin rather than on his skin. After the third week, the BT suddenly died, no white spot was present, but he has this white discoloration around his mouth and just under his mouth sort of on his "chin". Now in the fourth week, 1 of the CF has white spot, immediately QT'd and treated, died within hours, and now I see my second CF has white spot as well.

Testing water daily and comes up with 0 Amm, 0 Nitrite, 0 Nitrate and Salinity 1.025

I have freshwater tanks that I don't have any issues with.

Tank is 215 liters / 56 gal

 

[Dbichler]

The first thing to point out is the tank is too small for a blue tang. Way too new and small for a Morish idol one of the hardest fish to keep in the saltwater hobby. If you added all at the same time in a new tank they probably spiked your ammonia and the stress led to a disease. Read through all of the stickies and go slow.

 

[Jekyl]

Agree with tank being too small for the fish in the long term. Also think disease is a factor. Do you have a quarantine method in place? If not here is a write up.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

You add too many fish at once.

The fish you added should be in much bigger tanks.

I see inefficient water flow from those tiny poweheads.

What kind of filtration are you running on the tank?

This is a research heavy hobby. This is much more complicated than freshwater.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I am having bad luck with my reef tank. I let it cycle for just more than a month, blind feeding, did water tests. Throughout the cycle process the ammonia went up as normal, nitrite went up as normal but for the last 2 weeks it was stuck with off the charts nitrite and nitrate, and no ammonia. After 5 water changes over a 2 week period, the nitrite and nitrate levels went to 0 overnight which was strange. Algae was growing and over the next few days water changes remained stable at 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, 0 Nitrate and Salinity 1.020

I then added fish, 2x Percula Clownfish, 1x Blue Tang and 1x Moorish Idol. Referred to as CF, BT and MI respectively in rest of post.

The MI wasn't eating normal pellets or frozen food he was eating my corals(destroyed most of my corals), so then I made a mix to try and activate the MI's appetite, I mixed frozen foods(Mysis, Bloodworm etc) mixed with marine pellets all mixed in Seachem Garlic Guard, I froze it then fed it to the tank, very small portions daily. This seemed to have taken his interest, and he started eating it. As well as the BT and the CF were eating away at it too. I put a seaweed clip in there every time at feeding as well and left it for some hours but no one was interested in it, even dipped it in some garlic, still no interest.

However, things started turning upside down after 2 weeks since introducing the fish:
The MI started showing signs that he was struggling to keep himself the right way up by pointing his nose down and only turned right when there would be activity around the tank. I immediately QT'd him but within a day he died, he has some white spots on him but it wasn't the normal type of white spot, it was very faded and under his skin rather than on his skin. After the third week, the BT suddenly died, no white spot was present, but he has this white discoloration around his mouth and just under his mouth sort of on his "chin". Now in the fourth week, 1 of the CF has white spot, immediately QT'd and treated, died within hours, and now I see my second CF has white spot as well.

Testing water daily and comes up with 0 Amm, 0 Nitrite, 0 Nitrate and Salinity 1.025

I have freshwater tanks that I don't have any issues with.

Tank is 215 liters / 56 gal

Im not worried for now about the tang as I would be down the road.
Are you using RODI water or tap water to mix salt and for top offs?
Is this tank at or near a window?
How are you testing the water?
My suspect right now would be false readings and under-filtration. It appears to me you are using a canister unit and its a mechanical unit which will polish water and trap particles via the cartridge. You want to have mechanical , biological and chemical to manage proper water quality.
Chemical is what traps and breaks down chemical compounds such as feces and uneaten food often accomplished with use of carbon and GFO as examples
Biological is what utilizes the natural process of biological filtration such as use of ceramic nuggets, bio blocks, and microscopic bacteria surfaces as examples. Best it to add or use a hang on refugium such as Reef octopus or AquaMaxx unit and even add a hang on skimmer such as ice cap K1- or K2 100
Ammonia spike may have been very possible and often undetectable after the spike event.

 

[slingfox]

Your tank is far too small to house a Blue Tang or Moorish Idol. Only add fish appropriate for your tank size and that will make things a lot easier on you as well as the fish who likely don't want to be trapped in a small box their whole life.

 

[Obscure]

The first thing to point out is the tank is too small for a blue tang. Way too new and small for a Morish idol one of the hardest fish to keep in the saltwater hobby. If you added all at the same time in a new tank they probably spiked your ammonia and the stress led to a disease. Read through all of the stickies and go slow.

I've done some research on the size and found that there were Moorish Idols kept is these size tanks even slightly smaller with low stock, my plan was only to keep the 4 fish in it. So I'm not saying I think your point is not taken, I just thought from what I read it would be possible. The spike is likely but I did not pick it up and I've tested daily.. Not sure how quickly an ammonia spike could dissipate and that I just missed it since I did notice higher Nitrite and Nitrate one day but went fine the next day.

 

[Obscure]

Agree with tank being too small for the fish in the long term. Also think disease is a factor. Do you have a quarantine method in place? If not here is a write up.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Since I had no other fish in the tank and all the fish came from the same supplier and I added them at the same time, I did not do an initial QT.

 

[Obscure]

You add too many fish at once.

The fish you added should be in much bigger tanks.

I see inefficient water flow from those tiny poweheads.

What kind of filtration are you running on the tank?

This is a research heavy hobby. This is much more complicated than freshwater.

1000l/h flow rate.
Mechanical filtration with carbon.
I had Purigen in for a while just to clear up the water.

 

[Obscure]

Im not worried for now about the tang as I would be down the road.
Are you using RODI water or tap water to mix salt and for top offs?
Is this tank at or near a window?
How are you testing the water?
My suspect right now would be false readings and under-filtration. It appears to me you are using a canister unit and its a mechanical unit which will polish water and trap particles via the cartridge. You want to have mechanical , biological and chemical to manage proper water quality.
Chemical is what traps and breaks down chemical compounds such as feces and uneaten food often accomplished with use of carbon and GFO as examples
Biological is what utilizes the natural process of biological filtration such as use of ceramic nuggets, bio blocks, and microscopic bacteria surfaces as examples. Best it to add or use a hang on refugium such as Reef octopus or AquaMaxx unit and even add a hang on skimmer such as ice cap K1- or K2 100
Ammonia spike may have been very possible and often undetectable after the spike event.

I'm using dechlorinated(Seachem Prime & Seachem Stability) tap water. Initial fill and top offs.
It's located central in the house, not near a window.
I use the API Master Test kit.
I have mechanical filtration 1000l/h. I had Seachem Purigen in to clear the water for a while. Also run carbon all the time.
I will research into further filtration from your advice.
The spike becomes more plausible since I have been testing daily, and although I never picked up high or even any ammonia at all, I did pick up off the charts nitrite and nitrate, then did a water change and the next day all readings were 0. I am not sure how fast an ammonia spike can dissipate.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

1000l/h flow rate.
Mechanical filtration with carbon.
I had Purigen in for a while just to clear up the water.

Your flow rate (if my math was right and I’m poor at math) is 5x which is inadequate. Recommended is minimum 10x I keep my tanks at about 40x turnover.

We don’t recommend API test kits they are not accurate enough.

We don’t recommend tap water. Dechlorinator removes the chlorine but not the other harmful.

Your treating this like a freshwater hobby and that’s why its not working out. This is completely different.

 

[goosemans]

I've done some research on the size and found that there were Moorish Idols kept is these size tanks even slightly smaller with low stock, my plan was only to keep the 4 fish in it. So I'm not saying I think your point is not taken, I just thought from what I read it would be possible. The spike is likely but I did not pick it up and I've tested daily.. Not sure how quickly an ammonia spike could dissipate and that I just missed it since I did notice higher Nitrite and Nitrate one day but went fine the next day.

confirmation bias my man. Just because one was kept in a small tank doesn’t mean you should do it too.

 

[Obscure]

Your flow rate (if my math was right and I’m poor at math) is 5x which is inadequate. Recommended is minimum 10x I keep my tanks at about 40x turnover.

We don’t recommend API test kits they are not accurate enough.

We don’t recommend tap water. Dechlorinator removes the chlorine but not the other harmful.

Your treating this like a freshwater hobby and that’s why its not working out. This is completely different.

I've heard people saying test strips are inaccurate, so I stayed away from them, that's why I've been using the API kits with the drops because my LFS use it, but by your recommendation you also don't seem to endorse them. Are you able to point me in a direction that will give me better results?

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

Hanna or salifert are the preferred brands by most I think. I prefer Hanna myself.

 

[Obscure]

Hanna or salifert are the preferred brands by most I think. I prefer Hanna myself.

Much obliged friend.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I'm using dechlorinated(Seachem Prime & Seachem Stability) tap water. Initial fill and top offs.
It's located central in the house, not near a window.
I use the API Master Test kit.
I have mechanical filtration 1000l/h. I had Seachem Purigen in to clear the water for a while. Also run carbon all the time.
I will research into further filtration from your advice.
The spike becomes more plausible since I have been testing daily, and although I never picked up high or even any ammonia at all, I did pick up off the charts nitrite and nitrate, then did a water change and the next day all readings were 0. I am not sure how fast an ammonia spike can dissipate.

Flow not sufficient and filter is one issue. As suspected API kit and also Tap water. First on tap water - Its NOT worth it. With so many sales on RODI units- worth the now small investment.
For starters, the amount of Alk in tap water can potentially double this number easily and affect CA and PH not to mention content of heavy metals, chloramine, polluants. flouride and other elements not contained in sea water. tap water also offers no ph buffering and note many areas have copper in their taop water which you do not want in your system. Next will be phosphates in water which will cause further issues.
As you can see - Risk is the issue
For water quality, take a water sample to a store that does NOT use Api kits and have them test your ammonia and nitrates and compare readings- then you'll know where your levels truly are at. Disregard nitrite which is freshwater specific.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

If you face the challenge, this is so much more gratifying than freshwater. Many of us here have done or still do both. This is good place to learn and everyone here wants to help you. It sounds negative sometimes but it’s never meant that way. Ask questions anytime. Good luck.

 

[Obscure]

Flow not sufficient and filter is one issue. As suspected API kit and also Tap water. First on tap water - Its NOT worth it. With so many sales on RODI units- worth the now small investment.
For starters, the amount of Alk in tap water can potentially double this number easily and affect CA and PH not to mention content of heavy metals, chloramine, polluants. flouride and other elements not contained in sea water. tap water also offers no ph buffering and note many areas have copper in their taop water which you do not want in your system. Next will be phosphates in water which will cause further issues.
As you can see - Risk is the issue
For water quality, take a water sample to a store that does NOT use Api kits and have them test your ammonia and nitrates and compare readings- then you'll know where your levels truly are at. Disregard nitrite which is freshwater specific.

Very good to hear how important RODI water is, I've understood that RODI water is just a nice to have but I've already checked, a RODI system will be the next thing I get.

As was mentioned by MOJO earlier, I will be moving away from API Kits immediately. I am considering Salifert testing at this time as the Hanna equipment is a little bit out of my budget for the short term.

Interesting that you say to disregard Nitrite for saltwater since API sells them in their saltwater test kits. I'd rather take your word over API's since my blunder happened while using their test kits.

I have a sump system on my 400L freshwater so will be good to set up one for my saltwater as well.

 

[Obscure]

If you face the challenge, this is so much more gratifying than freshwater. Many of us here have done or still do both. This is good place to learn and everyone here wants to help you. It sounds negative sometimes but it’s never meant that way. Ask questions anytime. Good luck.

To be honest, I wish I asked questions earlier, my research on saltwater have not been adequate. My background is freshwater. All the input so far has been great.

 

[slingfox]

I've done some research on the size and found that there were Moorish Idols kept is these size tanks even slightly smaller with low stock, my plan was only to keep the 4 fish in it. So I'm not saying I think your point is not taken, I just thought from what I read it would be possible. The spike is likely but I did not pick it up and I've tested daily.. Not sure how quickly an ammonia spike could dissipate and that I just missed it since I did notice higher Nitrite and Nitrate one day but went fine the next day.

Check out LiveAquaria for tank size recommendations for specific saltwater fish. Do not rely on "research" where the process is little more than a selective search to find sometime who put a large fish in a small tank and said it was "okay".

Blue Tang: 180 gallon min tank size
Moorish Idol: 125 gallon min tank size