7 Weeks- No Cycle: could I have done something which would prevent my tank from ever cycling?

[KrisReef]

1) Problem: (Growing Despair)


3) Last Friday
After listening for months to BRS videos advocating the virtues of bare bottom, dry rock cycling, last Friday they put out a video saying they personally had now abandoned that approach



4) Two questions rear their ugly heads (Advice?)
A) Is my cycle normal or broken?
Is my unchanging cycle conditions unfortunately "normal" for a sterile cycle?
Or how likely is it, that I may have introduced some sort of bacteria killer to my system?

B) Cycle tank: Keep going or restart?
Should I just add the sand and live bacteria to the existing 7 week tank to push it to finally cycle?
Or does no drop in ammonia levels and the absence of any nitrite/nitrate indicate something is killing my bacteria
and given time, would kill Dr. Tim's live bacteria too?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can offer.

Answers
A: If you think your cycle is broken I would insist on hormone therapy to bring it back to 'normal'. (I have a video on line that explains all this.)
B: A sterile cycle is impossible. A tank requires microbial life to thrive. "Sterile" is a concept you need to purge, imo.

Brandon may be on to something
HTH.

 

[brandon429]

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

Updated Cycling Science in Action This is a testless reef tank cycling thread, the only one from any board. If you ever had trouble with reef tank cycling in the past, you won't any longer after working some jobs with us. chances are you are using/about to use a method of reef tank cycling...

www.reef2reef.com

the OP is welcome to apply the rules from post 1 there, and update us on the happy fish. we practice this all day long/daily/hourly and if other forums hadn't banned me for this exact practice we'd be troubleshooting fifty stuck cycles per minute like Robocop

its awesome that reef2reef will allow work threads to test new claims, and then the outcomes in the threads builds the truth or consequence portion.

because in work threads, we can see a lot of reefs starting on a given call date to see if submersion timing has any merit.

the #1 marker from that thread that the Op has met here is the submersion time, he's beyond a cycle chart's timeline and no cycles stick longer than that. for ten pages all we do is change water and begin, change water and begin it always works.

and the best part: any seneye owner can replicate the findings. in my opinion its not possible to luck into that many successful starts above, some aspect of this is solid science. at least we're dealing with others reefs for once vs just one reef and then all the others are expected to turn out like it...we work using other's reefs solely and they're free to provide positive vs neg updates if warranted.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

The cycling police comment was rude... We are just trying to help.

I would think it could be a misread from a test kit. Every manufactured product has defects so its possible that you got a bad production run or something. Have you tried getting a LFS to test for ammonia? Even without bottled bacteria I would expect a drop.

 

[arking_mark]

Mark

after his big water change. we always do that for streamlining.

but do I think the tank has free ammonia above hundredths ppm? no, per the false ammonia link that's just another day in the park for api.

I am 100% sure this cycle is done, after he changes water. can begin reefing, the biofilter is simply set by every measure updated cycling science uses.

with that tank pic we need, we can assess water clarity and he can tell us if his house smells from the tank as extra verifiers.

do not buy anything for this cycle or you are throwing away cash. Tossing it out the window, your cycle is done.

Brandon-

Let me recommend you phrase your answer like this:

"Based on my experience and knowledge and the information you provided, your tank is cycled. I believe the ammonia readings and lack of Nitrite and Nitrate are in error..."

 

[Garf]

Brandon-

Let me recommend you phrase your answer like this:

"Based on my experience and knowledge and the information you provided, your tank is cycled. I believe the ammonia readings and lack of Nitrite and Nitrate are in error..."

It would be very odd to have all three tests wonky with a high ammonia input.

 

[arking_mark]

It would be very odd to have all three tests wonky with a high ammonia input.

Yes it would, but that was my understanding of Brandon's advice.

 

[terraincognita]

On Brandon's point.

I don't disagree that regardless of cycled or not some hardy fish with a little of the LFS water would probably be okay as well.

I wouldn't go throwing in expensive corals thought for sure.

Again Testing is all relative to the tester and kits as well. Maybe he's doing the Nitrate and Nitrite tests completely wrong.

Wish op would answer a few of our questions though. lol.

 

[arking_mark]

On Brandon's point.

I don't disagree that regardless of cycled or not some hardy fish with a little of the LFS water would probably be okay as well.

I wouldn't go throwing in expensive corals thought for sure.

Again Testing is all relative to the tester and kits as well. Maybe he's doing the Nitrate and Nitrite tests completely wrong.

The Seachem test kit can measure free and total ammonia. Seneye is great as well...or a LFS.

However, with the information provided by the OP, I wouldn’t recommend adding fish yet. I would recommend confirming their parameters and then continue unassisted or assisted cycling if those parameters were correct.

 

[brandon429]

Of all the disagreement levels possible on cycling this one is tame debates are good for us anyway

If we were sitting at a card table I'm betting on what I think seneye will read in this tank, with new water, and some typical animals one would have in a new reef. The tank will run thousandths ppm nh3 when the adjustments have been made, that's the bet.

Don't differentiate this cycle from any others, it will carry what any starting reef will carry.


Here's another direct application study we might could consider for op's issue:

 

[brandon429]

100% Water Change

So in my previous thread, I had an ammonia issue that was out of hand. As suggested, I did a 100% WC and now i’m wondering when I should start adding fish back. If anyone has suggestions, let me know!

www.reef2reef.com

See how many analogs we've worked on these, none differ. That one was the dreaded 8 ppm for five weeks instantly fixed. this one is only 2 ppm...

 

[brandon429]

also I really would agree he'd have to wait a very long time to clear out a dosage of AC meant for boosted cycling, applied to natural-only inoculation cycling.

those should use trace ammonia levels if the big water change at the end is to be avoided, and the proper wait times met. the reason there isn't any documentation for a seven week cycle in reefing is because this is new ground...anyone here feel free to offer up what you think may be repeatable info. I'm starting to see the similarity in cycling threads and how one tank turns out is directly matched to its cousin across the way, we're all linked in active surface area like this.

the only type of cycle that varies is the old order where all wastewater, no matter the mix, must be waited out or the cycle isn't legit.


the new order of cycling is as opposite as can be: changing water on the start date written on the bottle bac label reveals the exact quality bacterial biofilm waiting eight more weeks would confer; active surface area is limited and is already used up here by week 7.

he has no where to implant more bacteria. if the OP needs a better biofilter we'd add surface area not more bacteria.

notice how in each post only api says the reading but no one reports a smell, or gray water...in believing all reported test params we've lost contextual proofs that matter.


None of these reefs had the degree of nh3 stated. they're all non seneye posts. and in every case the crowd will believe the bacteria can't do a job, I noticed very few defer to the side of assuming the bac are capable at certain time intervals. we've been testing lots and lots of reefs on those critical start dates, thousands by now logged.


its not possible to even have an opinion on today's cycling microbiology unless we're speaking in Seneye patterns noted. seneye has changed the game totally in my opinion. seneye will require the rules of reef tank cycling to be re written around truth now and not retail supports.

 

[arking_mark]

Of all the disagreement levels possible on cycling this one is tame debates are good for us anyway

If we were sitting at a card table I'm betting on what I think seneye will read in this tank, with new water, and some typical animals one would have in a new reef. The tank will run thousandths ppm nh3 when the adjustments have been made, that's the bet.

Don't differentiate this cycle from any others, it will carry what any starting reef will carry.


Here's another direct application study we might could consider for op's issue:

Reefing doesn't have to be gambling.

Reefing is not a sprint, but a marathon, so patience and educated decisions are best.

My recommendation remains the same. Validate the measurements and go from there.

 

[brandon429]

no harm there agreed.

 

[Steve Carlson]

According to a post you made here, last week, ammonia was only 0.25;

Does bag of dry sand contain pests and need to be sterilized?

I'm restarting a tank after a 2 year break and want to avoid pests. I've bleached my old rock and equipment but have a 4 year old bag of unused dry Aragonite. Can I consider that substrate pest free at this point to rinse in RODI water and add to my cycle tank? Or should it still be sterilized...

www.reef2reef.com

This may have been an API test anomaly. So you may not have added hardly any ammonia for the first 4 weeks with the shrimp.
Your post on this thread states you’ve waited 7 weeks but the thread last week said 4 weeks.
When did you add the 2ppm ammonia?

Garf,

Wow, I appreciate your attention to detail and reading my first post about risks of adding old bagged sand!
By the length of post above, I suspect you're recognizing I've spent way too much money and have tried way too many adjustments to do a good job of summarizing everything well.

1) Weeks:
It has been 7 weeks. I have a dry erase board next to the tanks where I jot things down. The four weeks reference was wrong. I noticed I started back on Feb 2nd 2021 which was about 7 weeks back at this point.

2) Ammonia Level:
The early low ammonia reading resulted from adding 3 raw shrimp one after another as they rotted and collapsed.
I really couldn't determine the cause of my steady ammonia level.
Was it because
a) I actually have live bacteria --
but it's only able to reducing the ammonia at the same rate the decaying shrimp was adding it? or...
b) The shrimp is done adding ammonia, and there's no bacteria reducing it?

So to find out, I purchased a bottle of Dr. Tim's ammonia, and pulled out the shrimp. I added drops until it got just over 2ppm and then stopped adding any more to see if my tests would show a drop. (No drop...)

I have to say I'm really amazed at the level of response here and all the helpful insights from so many people.
I'll try to reply to a few other comments also here.

Microbacter7: could it have frozen on the way here?
Yes. It was bitterly cold in Jan/Feb so I hoped Microbacter7 would survive in the truck better than a live bacteria, but it could have gotten too cold along the way.

Abandoning Bare Bottom for Sand?
I suspect my display tank will end up with an inch of sand. I know from painful experience how disciplined you need to be to keep it clean, but often, you have to pick your pain in this hobby. I sense sand gives me the best path to having one mature stable system in my house. Once that's available as a source, my odds of a successful bare bottom will increase dramatically.

(terraincognita) City Chloramines and the survival of bacteria. Your LA water comments were encouraging that whatever the cause of my slow cycle, I probably don't have some type of bacteria poison in my tank and I will get there.

What's My Current Plan Now?
Since I already ordered sand and Dr. Tim's live bacteria (should be here later this week) and I have empty tanks for future quarantine of fish and corals, I'm going to keep my options open by trying cycling in 2 (and maybe) 3 tanks at once.
1) Sand Only Tank: I'll put the dry sand in one tank, add just enough Dr. Tim's to get it cycled.
2) Existing Dry Rock Tank: Again, add Dr. Tim's and see if it eats ammonia now, and still does in a couple weeks.
But if the sand tank cycles, but my rock does not...
3) Mixed Tank: I'll move some cycled sand in a 3rd small tank
and also move some of the uncycled rock
to see if the sand cycles the rock, or the rock kills the cycled sand.

Also, someone mentioned it would be helpful to see a picture. (The drain is for easier water changes, it's on wheels to make it easier when drained to roll over to the floor drain for cleaning, the filters are for future quarantine tanks.)

 

[brandon429]

Well done arrangement, that’s a very high surface area activation right in the middle of the current flow, nice cycle. Laser clean water, I bet doesn’t smell. That’s how we know it all worked fine-it’d be cloudy and smelly were it not just fine.


free ammonia doesn’t just smell in cat litter but not in free standing water. Those with smelly tanks know it, immediately. See how these details are never factored in cycle troubleshoots nor offered by my laughing buddies...they want us to believe active media leaves unused ammonia while never smelling and looking totally clear.


the tendency is to accept every posted param as accurate, close the book. We can see from the most basic searches Api is known for ammonia issues, it doesn’t become the solid umpire just for this thread as you have timing factors as a unique reinforcement

if u have a dead shrimp in there now lol pull that rascal out and reef

 

[brandon429]

Thaxx

along with laugh emojis can we get some contribution from ya

a work link, a practice example, heck we’d even accept your own cycled reef as a sincere move really just any kind of media offered would stand out.


u have any studies handy for 7 week cycles

are you on the side that a seven week well fed system isn’t cycled... and among api posts this one is for sure the one

 

[schuby]

My understanding is the Microbacter 7 is not the correct bacteria to use to cycle a tank. It should only be added later. I've used Dr Tim's One and Only for my DT (150 gal) and my QT tank (many times). Add 2ppm of Ammonia and then the proper-sized bottle of Dr Tim's. When ammonia reads zero, it is safe to add saltwater fish. When nitrite reads zero/near-zero, cycle is formally complete.

If you don't use the ammonia-spike at the beginning (2ppm), then your overall bacteria level will be playing "catch-up" when you think your cycle is complete and you add fish. This is due to the fact that bacteria can only multiply with an abundant food-source, such as the forced ammonia-spike.

 

[brandon429]

prior here we linked a seneye test where a system with no added bac still cycles naturally in this time, and we have another thread above of an api test showing it.
it doesn’t matter about mb7 we have met the known unassisted cycling time, and a cycling chart agrees.

plus this system was well fed the entire time, the unassisted tank doesn’t even require this much feed to be ready.



adding mb7 isn’t antibacterial, it doesn’t remove the ability of the system to self cycle in the known timeframe. This is an api reading, single point api read we know how that works out routinely

no smell

no cloudy water, api false alarms always have the same context clues.

 

[fishhead1973]

1) Problem: (Growing Despair)
75 gallon, bare bottom, dry rock fishless cycle using Microbacter7 (per instructions) using new API tests.
Now at 7 weeks I still have a consistent 2ppm ammonia (initially from raw shrimp, and now Dr. Tim's ammonia)
but the ammonia level never drops, and I've seen no sign of any conversion to nitrite or nitrate (Api tests have always shown 0.00)
My 75 gallon cycle tank has no light, 80 degree water, lower salinity (1.020) and 2,500 gph powerhead flow.
It half full of Pukani rock (from BRS), I have a couple hundred 1" bio balls (for future quarantine tank use).

2) Background: (Bleach and Citric Acid)
I had a reef tank for 3 years, started with live rock, quick cycle, but too many pests made me decide to shut it down a couple years ago.
Now I'm restarting trying my best to avoid pests this time.
So after watching hundreds of online videos (i.e. BRS) I have been aiming toward a bare bottom, dry rock for a 120 gal display tank with a 40 breeder sump.
I prepared myself for the long "4 month cycle"
So I bleach soaked everything for a week in a 40 Gal Brute can (10% basic Clorox - no fragrances)
I rinsed and rinsed, then soaked for another week in city water, then used plenty of Chloram-X to remove bleach/chloramines.
I sat all the rocks out to dry in my furnace room for a full month hoping any embedded remaining bleach would evaporate.
I have a Hanna chlorine checker and my cycle water reads 0.00 chlorine (my tap water reads 1.98)
All this was due to fear that I wouldn't be able to get the bleach out of my rock and it would kill any nitrifying bacteria as soon as it appeared.
I also cleaned my pumps, heaters and protein skimmer in citric acid (and thought I rinsed and soaked them adequately - another 24 hours in RODI)

3) Last Friday (Ricochet)
After listening for months to BRS videos advocating the virtues of bare bottom, dry rock cycling, last Friday they put out a video saying they personally had now abandoned that approach because it was just "too sterile". What they didn't realize was that the bare bottom/dry rock model they thought they were emulating (from world wide corals) was missing the part where they were actually dumping a bunch of mature live rock into the tank to seed everything! (Cheating...) So the BRS host Ryan, bought a ton of Ocean Direct live sand and threw it all into his own bare bottom tank and encouraged his listeners to start using live rock or live sand.

Well, that's fine, but the whole point was to avoid starting your brand new system with all the pests from somebody else's "mature" system. I do understand this prior approach is just too sterile and the lack of the massive surface area of sand will create more problems than the ongoing maintenance it will definitely require. So I ordered a couple 40 lb bags of CaribSea special dry sand -- but instead of trying to get my live bacteria from live rock, sand or off coral frags, I ordered a bottom of Dr. Tim's Only and Only live bacteria hoping it will accomplish the same thing, except avoid the potential pest problem.

4) Two questions rear their ugly heads (Advice?)
A) Is my cycle normal or broken?
Is my unchanging cycle conditions unfortunately "normal" for a sterile cycle?
Or how likely is it, that I may have introduced some sort of bacteria killer to my system?

B) Cycle tank: Keep going or restart?
Should I just add the sand and live bacteria to the existing 7 week tank to push it to finally cycle?
Or does no drop in ammonia levels and the absence of any nitrite/nitrate indicate something is killing my bacteria
and given time, would kill Dr. Tim's live bacteria too?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can offer.

Put u a couple pieces of shrimp into the tank and then after a couple days add brightwell that should start the cycle .

 

[schuby]

This post is the basis of my statement about MB7. I have tremendous confidence and respect for Lasse.

Dr. Tim's or MicroBacter 7?

Dr. Tim's is $60.00 for a 100 gallon tank; Brightwell's is $18.00.

www.reef2reef.com