4 year old tank - failure to thrive, at a loss as to what is wrong

[Synergy17]

Hello,

I have had a tank setup for just over 4 years now. While fish and a few cleanup crew are okay, I have lost a number of coral frags and others which have survived have shown no growth. Only red mushrooms, a patch of Rasta zoas, and some Xenia have shown a little growth. Notably, I don't even have nuisance algae and can't keep chaeto, although caulerpa does grow a bit. I have not been able to keep certain snails (nassarius and cerith) for any length of time. I have done a Triton water test and not detected any metal contaminants.

Tank is a 40 gallon breeder with a 75 gallon sump (total volume about 60 gallons).
Lighting is 2 Kessil 160WE Tuna Blue. Currently peaking at 34% intensity for 4 hours, overall lighting 10 hours.
Flow is 2 EcoTech MP10s at about 1/3 power.
Water changes are once weekly or every other week, about 5-7%, have never seen benefit or drawback to more or less frequency.

I'm not sure if this is good lighting, too much, or not enough. The peak time may be rather short?


Inhabitants are 2 clownfish, 1 royal gramma, 2 skunk cleaners, 1 peppermint shrimp. I have / want to keep softies and LPS. I feed pretty lightly, a very small portion of frozen mysis at lunch, and pellets/flakes in the evening.

Parameters tested as of today:
Calcium: 425
Alkalinity: 9.1
Magnesium: 1200
Temperature: 77 F
pH: 8.26
salinity: 1.027
Nitrate: 25 ppm (Nyos), off the chart (Red Sea dilute)
Phosphate: 0.35 / 0.17 ppm (2 Hanna ULM tests)

I dose 10 ml of BRS Sodium Bicarbonate solution daily to maintain Alk.
Red Sea (even diluted) has always tested extremely high for me, going to dark purple the second I add the 3 reagent, not sure why this differs so much from the Nyos reading.
Salinity is a bit high - I think my Milwaukee reader needs adjustment. Today's reading is from Apex probe and basic hydrometer. I do not think this has been a consistent problem, though.
Not sure why phosphate is reading so high. Also, not sure how I have almost no algae growth with both nitrates and phosphate, unless something else is missing, like iron. But why would I be lacking some other trace element?

Overall, I think my parameters are okay. I will definitely try to reduce the salinity and phosphate slowly. I'm just at a loss as to why I have not been able to keep or grow much of anything (mushrooms, zoas, acans, candy canes, etc) over such a long time. Coral frags will look okay for a few weeks or even months, then just shrink and die back.
It's been very frustrating, as I only want to keep the common, easy corals that should "just work." I think it's telling that I can't even keep chaeto -- but with very little in the tank and regular water changes, I don't understand how any trace elements should be lacking.
If anyone has any suggestions or wants more information, please let me know.

Thanks.

 

[Montiman]

Your lighting sounds very dim to me. I would likely end up at 100% intensity on the kessils. If you are not confident about the PAR levels you can rent a meter but as a big kessil fan I think you have the intensity far too low for most corals.

 

[Crustaceon]

Sounds like you need more light intensity. That’s less than 30w of lighting on 40g tank. For reference, I run six 54w t5ho bulbs over my 55g. Before that, I ran three “165w” (actually 120w) led chinese black boxes over my 100g @ around 40% power each. I’d say I was putting around 120w of led lighting over that tank. I played it safe with that tank and probably could have increased my wattage to 60% each. I know kessils are efficient, but they’re not THAT efficient. You probably should rent a par meter and I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re well under 200 par at your corals.

 

[Dkmoo]

I do 2 ai primes ar 100% during peak hours for a 29g. Softies/shroom need a lot less light. They also like "dirtier water" compared to LPS. This probably are the 2 main things why you can't keep anything "stony"

Only other thing I can think of is that ur mag is a bit low. Getting then above 1300 will help with alk/ca stability - Also now stable are all those params you listed? You only mentioned those are the readings now but LPS (and to a higher degree SPS) need stability more than chasing perfect levels. Daily swings shouldn't really exceed these thresholds generally to give them the best chance to survive:

Ph 0.3, alk - 0.5 dkh, CA, 10 ppm, mag - ppl have diff opinions but for me 20 to 50 ppm max

 

[mindme]

I agree with lighting. I have 2 of the same lights on a 29g anemone tank and I run them at 100%, with the color part increasing up to about 30% at the peak part of the day for a few hours.

Also your phosphates and nitrates are pretty high. You say you don't have algae and can't keep chaeto, but the nutrients are high. Have you ever used Vibrant or something like that? If so this is the reason I don't use it any longer, the algea won't grow and it won't remove the nitrates/phosphates. Sure it's ugly and we don't want it, but it does serve a purpose. If not, not sure why it won't grow. Either way, you need to do a series of large water changes and get those back down(or use another method to remove them). And that will also mean you'll need to increase your water change schedule in general to keep them down(or again find another method).

I also don't understand why you need to dose daily for Alk.

 

[ZoWhat]

LPS - generally like very light flow
SPS - higher flow

I mostly have zoas and palys and my polyps get smaller when I use to experiment with higher random flow.

Now that I've cut way back to where my flow barely moves water over the zoas/palys, much bigger polyps absorbing light. Im talking the polyps don't move with the flow bc the flow is so light....no waving, jiggling at all.

I know one time I took a baseball sized rock covered in zoas and it was placed directly in line with moderate flow. They got irritated and 90% of the zoas died. When I went to much lighter flow and moved the rock, the zoas overtook the rock again.

Thats my experience....

Maybe try cutting flow back to 10%.

.

 

[Greg P]

The snail deaths lead me to think about diatoms, but your N&P levels are good
Your Mag is only slightly low
As mentioned look at your light schedule. Consider a 3-4hr very intense period in the middle of the 10hrs - 80%?
But, as you're schedule is currently quite low, ramp it up over a month? or so

 

[SPR1968]

You really need to get the phosphate level down and your probably going to have to use GFO, personally I use rowaphos. For various reasons you can research, phosphate needs to be locked down very low at less than around 0.03. At the level your at it will need changing regularity, or it won’t work, as the rocks will likely leach phosphate out for a while

You could also try a few more water changes first, as this will also help get the nitrate down as well, and a good target is around 5-10

I can always tell when the rowaphos needs changing because the tank starts to get like a ‘dirty’ look about it on the glass, so thats an early indication for me

Just check the dry food your using as well, to see how much phosphate etc they contain and if need be possibly try a different type.

I would raise the magnesium to around 1300+ I like to keep mine around 1300-1350. It’s vitality important to coral growth and health as it affects the interaction of the other elements. If it’s to low Ive found the corals don’t look healthy and have little growth.

As far as the lights are concerned I would just turn them up and/or try a different colour schedule (if you can) and you can research this a little more

I would also increase flow, they don’t want ‘blasting’ with flow but corals needs plenty especially SPS and LPS like lots of movement as well.

All you need to do to keep a reef tank is maintain the water within certain acceptable parameters, with good light, think of yourself as just ‘a water keeper’

Just my thoughts anyway

 

[Aqua Man]

How often are you cleaning the glass?
How’s your coralline growth?
Can you show a FTS?

Xenia is a great way to “see” how much flow Is in a certain spot. As mentioned above, sometimes flow is too much In some areas.

 

[Synergy17]

Thank you everyone for the feedback. I will need some time to re-read and absorb everything, but here are my thoughts so far:

- I will work on increasing the light intensity slowly. I had been keeping them pretty low based on hearing how easy it is to overdo it with LEDs, but maybe I've been too cautious.

- I'm not sure what to make of the high phosphates -- I do have some Pukani rock which I think has a reputation for leaching phosphates, but they've been in the tank for the full 4 years now. I have also had lower readings in the past, I don't think this is a consistent problem (maybe). I have never run GFO, phosban, etc., but will check them. I hear they are very efficient and should be used pretty cautiously.

- I basically never need to clean the glass

- Nitrates had traditionally been around 40 ppm. I was surprised to see them somewhat lower. I added more rubble and some Matrix a while back, that may be working now. I have tried using low doses of Tropic Marin's carbon dosing, but that seemed to lead to dinos even before nutrients had bottomed out.

- I'm pretty confused about flow, seems hard to estimate how much or little some of the corals are getting, and whether they are happy (unless it's very obvious)

- I believe these parameters are fairly consistent - especially as I only dose the Alk and do regular WC, there should not be big fluctuations.

- One other thing I forgot in the original post: I have traditionally not run filter socks, but have begun running them and swapping out every 2 days. I do get a lot of brown water when I rinse them, so I will plan to continue.

- Based on feedback so far I will plan to slowly ramp up the light peak intensity and duration of the peak intensity, but keep overall light cycle the same. Will work on retesting and decreasing phosphates and nitrates. May play with flow a bit, but I think I'm okay as nothing is getting blasted. I will also look into trying to raise the magnesium just a bit.

Thanks again, will look to do followup in a few weeks. If anyone has any advice or warnings about phosphate reduction, let me know.

 

[Greg P]

You mentioned brown water from the socks. Do you see any brown stuff on the sand?
When I had trouble keeping snails I had unreadable N&P and dusty sand. I'm fairly certain it was diatoms as there wasn't any snotty look to it, but I wasn't 100% certain, even with the swirl test.
I needed to up my nutrients to a level below yours before my socks and skimmer started collecting a more 'normal' looking/smelling goop. Then the sand finally cleared up and I was able to keep snails.

 

[Aqua Man]

I basically never need to clean the glass

Either not enough light or not enough nutrients. Algae should be growing somewhere.

 

[Synergy17]

I needed to up my nutrients to a level below yours before my socks and skimmer started collecting a more 'normal' looking/smelling goop.

That's interesting -- what is normal looking goop from filter socks? I've assumed what I'm seeing is normal, but maybe it's not? After about 48 hours, I'll swap them and rinse in clean water -- it gets pretty tan/brown. This will settle pretty quickly into fairly fluffy looking stuff that can be stirred up again easily.

 

[John08007]

Agree, you prob need some more light. You may want to get an icp test, prob $25-30 and may identify some trace mineral that you are lacking without you knowing it.

 

[X-37B]

Pics will help.

 

[RedReefer]

Why are you dosing? If you’re doing weekly water changes and you have no coral, no coral growth, I would definitely not dose with anything. You should be able to change one 5 gallon bucket weekly and be fine until the coral growth or the coraline algae takes over. Also you light intensity needs to be increased. Stop dosing.

 

[reefbeard]

I agree with lighting. I have 2 of the same lights on a 29g anemone tank and I run them at 100%, with the color part increasing up to about 30% at the peak part of the day for a few hours.

Also your phosphates and nitrates are pretty high. You say you don't have algae and can't keep chaeto, but the nutrients are high. Have you ever used Vibrant or something like that? If so this is the reason I don't use it any longer, the algea won't grow and it won't remove the nitrates/phosphates. Sure it's ugly and we don't want it, but it does serve a purpose. If not, not sure why it won't grow. Either way, you need to do a series of large water changes and get those back down(or use another method to remove them). And that will also mean you'll need to increase your water change schedule in general to keep them down(or again find another method).

I also don't understand why you need to dose daily for Alk.

+1
I run my 160WE on a 12hr photoperiod. A 4hr ramp up to 100% intensity, 4hrs at 100%, then a 4hr ramp down.

 

[Greg P]

what is normal looking goop from filter socks?

I can't really describe the looks of normal dirty socks.
During the ugly phase of what I suspect was diatoms the socks were the same color as the light brown on the sand and smelled kinda rusty.
Once I was past it they smelled more as the sea does.

 

[CavalierReef]

Either not enough light or not enough nutrients. Algae should be growing somewhere.

That's very interesting to me because I've been concerned about my lack of algae (go figure). Healthy LPS but no algae.