3% Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) dosing for parasites in a mixed reef tank (132G/500L)

[Saltees]

So sorry to hear! Personally, I'd "call" this experiment and work a different angle. I've seen people try to "manage" ich and lose their fish and I've seen people have to sacrifice their invertebrates to an ich treatment, but in this case you are losing fish and inverts, which is a no-win situation.

Jay

I agree so far this seemingly is a no-win situation. I hope this thread will present the rewards and equally the risks of H2O2 dosing in a reef environment for those intending to go this route will have to caution.

I prepared myself way before this (experimental) course of action, knowing it’s very limitations, on fishes that were with me for a year; able bodied fishes living in a managed ICH environment.

Therefore, without getting into a runaway ICH situation, H2O2 dosing was implemented early and hard, causing the passing of anemones, resulting in the tragic demise of many fishes. I can’t say for sure, the death of anemones can be avoided, if I have followed the recipe of 2 weeks of lower H2O2 dosing and frequency prior. User error, perhaps.

What a bumpy starting week, for now I will continue to document and let the tank run its pace.

 

[cdnco2004]

Not for your tank as way to late now but for future people looking into H202. Maybe pulling the nems and other inverts and moving to a separate observation tank while treating the DT? I have read a lot about dosing H202 on Humble and have been considering it on my established LPS/softie tank. I am doing HTTM with H202 baths for QT but like I said had been considering dosing as well. I am pretty sure I have ICH in the tank from a Purple tang that had ICH before I got her and had been treated and had not shown any signs of infection for over a month. This was before I started doing the HTTM+H202 and now I will see what aper to be singular ich white spots on body and sometimes fins, on occasion when she gets stressed by me doing things in the tank like rearranging the rock scape. The spots always vanish in less than a day. But it has left me thinking that I do have ich in the system. I never see them on any other fish just her. But it has me nervous. SO I was thinking about starting to dose H202.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Not for your tank as way to late now but for future people looking into H202. Maybe pulling the nems and other inverts and moving to a separate observation tank while treating the DT? I have read a lot about dosing H202 on Humble and have been considering it on my established LPS/softie tank. I am doing HTTM with H202 baths for QT but like I said had been considering dosing as well. I am pretty sure I have ICH in the tank from a Purple tang that had ICH before I got her and had been treated and had not shown any signs of infection for over a month. This was before I started doing the HTTM+H202 and now I will see what aper to be singular ich white spots on body and sometimes fins, on occasion when she gets stressed by me doing things in the tank like rearranging the rock scape. The spots always vanish in less than a day. But it has left me thinking that I do have ich in the system. I never see them on any other fish just her. But it has me nervous. SO I was thinking about starting to dose H202.

If you go the route of pulling all the inverts, and you are sure you are just chasing ich, hyposalinity is easier to do and has a longer track record of use. Added benefit is that hypo controls flukes as well….
Jay

 

[cdnco2004]

If you go the route of pulling all the inverts, and you are sure you are just chasing ich, hyposalinity is easier to do and has a longer track record of use. Added benefit is that hypo controls flukes as well….
Jay

Are you saying do hyposalinity for the inverts in a QT or the fish/coral in the DT?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Are you saying do hyposalinity for the inverts in a QT or the fish/coral in the DT?

No, I'm saying if you are going to go to the trouble of moving all of the invertebrates out of a tank to treat the remaining fish with H2O2, why not move all of the invertebrates out, but run the fish under hyposalinity instead. More of a time tested treatment and the same amount of work.

Jay

 

[Saltees]

Not for your tank as way to late now but for future people looking into H202. Maybe pulling the nems and other inverts and moving to a separate observation tank while treating the DT? I have read a lot about dosing H202 on Humble and have been considering it on my established LPS/softie tank. I am doing HTTM with H202 baths for QT but like I said had been considering dosing as well. I am pretty sure I have ICH in the tank from a Purple tang that had ICH before I got her and had been treated and had not shown any signs of infection for over a month. This was before I started doing the HTTM+H202 and now I will see what aper to be singular ich white spots on body and sometimes fins, on occasion when she gets stressed by me doing things in the tank like rearranging the rock scape. The spots always vanish in less than a day. But it has left me thinking that I do have ich in the system. I never see them on any other fish just her. But it has me nervous. SO I was thinking about starting to dose H202.

Yes, I had it the hard way with anemones. I’m with the 24hr TTM (with fresh SEACHEM PARAGUARD daily) + H2O2 baths in between, so far I’ve been successful with ICK, Brooks and Velvet on individual fishes in IKEA SAMLA (22L) boxes. I would do so if time and space permits.

 

[Saltees]

OCT 9 (DAY10) - The remaining bigger Blotchy is gone too, along with couple of Anthias. My Mccullochi Clown pair are covered with white speckles, and the PBT is equally bad. I suspect it’s velvet. They are NOT eating, and I fear the worst.

It doesn’t help that I’m traveling next week. I’ll be feeding Dr Gill Anti Parasite Food (Chloroquine Phosphate), in hope to alleviate the situation till my return.

If by then, the situation doesn’t improve, I will likely (1) rehome the corals, inverts and rocks, (2) separately TTM the eels and (3) copper/hypo the whole system with what is remaining of the fishes for a month, thereafter observe for another month or two (due to travel) before deciding what to do next.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

OCT 9 (DAY10) - The remaining bigger Blotchy is gone too, along with couple of Anthias. My Mccullochi Clown pair are covered with white speckles, and the PBT is equally bad. I suspect it’s velvet. They are NOT eating, and I fear the worst.

It doesn’t help that I’m traveling next week. I’ll be feeding Dr Gill Anti Parasite Food (Chloroquine Phosphate), in hope to alleviate the situation till my return.

If by then, the situation doesn’t improve, I will likely (1) rehome the corals, inverts and rocks, (2) separately TTM the eels and (3) copper/hypo the whole system with what is remaining of the fishes for a month, thereafter observe for another month or two (due to travel) before deciding what to do next.

Travelling for a week is going to be an issue I think, do you have somebody who can send you videos and take corrective action if needed during that time?

That PBT has ich. There is a slim chance it also has velvet at the some time. Is the PBT breathing at less than about 150 gill beats per minute? If so, then it isn't velvet, just ich. To measure it, take a video an count the gill beats in a short segment (like 10 seconds) and then multiply that out for 60 seconds. Do that a couple of times and then average the results.

Jay

 

[Saltees]

No, I'm saying if you are going to go to the trouble of moving all of the invertebrates out of a tank to treat the remaining fish with H2O2, why not move all of the invertebrates out, but run the fish under hyposalinity instead. More of a time tested treatment and the same amount of work.

Jay

Would you suggest both HYPO @ 15ppt Salinity with 2-2.5ppm Copper Power at the same time for a “kill all” solution?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Would you suggest both HYPO @ 15ppt Salinity with 2-2.5ppm Copper Power at the same time for a “kill all” solution?

I do not have much experience doing that. I know that 20ppt and copper is fine, but I've not dabbled in trying it lower than that.... 20 ppt won't handle flukes though. Does copper power give different instructions for freshwater versus saltwater? If so, then that implies it is more toxic at lower salinities. Ionic copper is definitely more toxic at lower salinities...

Jay

 

[Saltees]

I do not have much experience doing that. I know that 20ppt and copper is fine, but I've not dabbled in trying it lower than that.... 20 ppt won't handle flukes though. Does copper power give different instructions for freshwater versus saltwater? If so, then that implies it is more toxic at lower salinities. Ionic copper is definitely more toxic at lower salinities...

Jay

Thanks for the reminder of copper toxicity at Hypo. Not sure the same can be said for chelated copper (Copper Power), I wouldn’t risk it as they also have a specific freshwater version. I guess I’ll go with PraziPro for deworming purposes thereafter.

 

[Saltees]

OCT14 (DAY15) - What is left of my livestocks…

2M4 2F Lyretail Anthia (Pseudanthias squamipinnis)
2M Hutchii Anthia (Pseudanthias huchtii)
2F Hutomo’s Anthia (Pseudanthias hutomoi)
1M1F Dispar Anthia (Pseudanthias dispar)
1M1F Evansi Anthia (Pseudanthias evansi)
2F Bismaculatus Anthia (Pseudanthias bimaculatus)
2 Borbonius Anthia (Odontanthias borbonius)
3 Diamond Watchman Goby (Valenciennea puellaris)
2 1 Mccullochi Clownfish (Amphiprion mccullochi)
2 Banana Moray (Gymnothorax milaris)
2 1 Red Dartfish (Nemateleotris magnifica)
1 Japanese Pygmy Angel (Centropyge interruptus)
1 Powder Blue Tang (Acanthurus leucosternon)
1 Purple Tang (Zebrasoma xanthurum)
1 Yellow Tang (Zebrasoma flavescens)
1 Gem Tang (Zebrasoma gemmatum)
1 Whitetail Bristletooth Tang (Ctenochaetus flavicauda)
1 Mystery Wrasse (Pseudocheilinus ocellatus)
1 China Tamarin Wrasse (Anampses neoguinaicus)
1 Aqua Marine Fairy Wrasse (Cirrhilabrus aquamarinus)
1 Radiant Wrasse (Halichoeres iridis)
1 Melanurus Wrasse (Halichoeres melanurus)
1 Red Sea Cleaner Wrasse (Labroides quadrilineatus)
1 Bluestreak Cleaner Wrasse (Labroides dimidiatus)
1 Purple Tilefish (Hoplolatilus purpureus)
1 Springer Damsel (Chrysiptera springeri)
1 Longnose Hawkfish (Oxycirrhites typus)
1 Valentini Sharpnose Puffer (Canthigaster valentini)
1 Bristletail Filefish (Acreichthys tomentosus)

PBT maybe the next on one as it’s not taking to the H2O2, plenty more spots, not eating and hiding. The rest of the tangs seem to be getting better in terms of the number of spots.

Inverts such as abalones, shrimps, snails, hermit, etc. seem unaffected by the presence of H2O2.

My PO4 has gone 0.90ppm (blinking) and beyond, NO3 around 40ppm. I believe UV and H2O2 have squashed my biopellet reactor. Maybe I should consider NOPOX instead.

I have removed about 70% of my thin sand bed, and trimmed my ATS, and Chaetomorpha… they are growing a lot.

Did my H2O2 test at 1.30pm and 1.35pm today = 0.05ppm; 30mins from dosing of 1mL/5G (19L) = 1.59ppm. I’m surprised at how quickly the rate H2O2 had dropped in my system. Unfortunately, I can’t be with my tank to test on the other timings.

I may test the H2O2 concentrate on Monday just to be sure if the potency of 1mL/5G (19L) = 1.59ppm remains.

 

[Bolek]

I have had a major outbreak of ich/velvet and succeeded to control it with peroxide following the advice on humble fish.

If I may say openly, i think, all the issues I read are because of anemonies releasing toxins. Whether anemonies got angry because of peroxide or else, does not matter, they are dangerous animals and I think they do not belong in reef tank.

Why I write this is because if people read this threat, I think it it important that people do not get worried of the peroxide method, but of keeping anemonies. The peroxide I believe is a very efficient and safe method, especially if you test with strips the peroxide in water as you do, and the peroxide is not responsible for the damages, the anemonies are.

With the peroxide I went even with much more intense night dosing, strictly checking with peroxide test not to exceed 1-2 ppm, and it literally saved my tank. I have lot of lps, softies, sps with acroporas, 20+ fish - and nothing died, everythink is ok after peroxide treatment (except shrimps where it was probably because of my stupidy).

One more think I have noticed, if you continue with the Peroxide dosing, is that you mention you put it directly to display tank. This I would be extremely worried about. Peroxide is a killing stuff, and if the powerhead blows it just into gills of some fish which just swims by, i guess it might kill it. It may also blow it across tank to corals and create many problems. I believe it must be doses into sump (and the far corner, not the one right next to return pump), so that once it reaches the animals it is already dispersed.

Just my 2cents, i hope you save rest of your animals,
B.

 

[Bolek]

Oh, and one more thing. My PBT was similarly covered with dots as yours, few other fish as well, and with these few guys I did the Peroxide dip (150ppm as recommended on humble fish). I think this was part of saving my fish, the bath helped them instantenously, and is very safe, tested by already dozens of reefers. So if any of your fish is struggling, covered with dots, and you can catch it (I was trying to catch my PBT for 3 days) I think it is very helpful part of the peroxide process.

 

[Sleepingtiger]

I have had a major outbreak of ich/velvet and succeeded to control it with peroxide following the advice on humble fish.

If I may say openly, i think, all the issues I read are because of anemonies releasing toxins. Whether anemonies got angry because of peroxide or else, does not matter, they are dangerous animals and I think they do not belong in reef tank.

Why I write this is because if people read this threat, I think it it important that people do not get worried of the peroxide method, but of keeping anemonies. The peroxide I believe is a very efficient and safe method, especially if you test with strips the peroxide in water as you do, and the peroxide is not responsible for the damages, the anemonies are.

With the peroxide I went even with much more intense night dosing, strictly checking with peroxide test not to exceed 1-2 ppm, and it literally saved my tank. I have lot of lps, softies, sps with acroporas, 20+ fish - and nothing died, everythink is ok after peroxide treatment (except shrimps where it was probably because of my stupidy).

One more think I have noticed, if you continue with the Peroxide dosing, is that you mention you put it directly to display tank. This I would be extremely worried about. Peroxide is a killing stuff, and if the powerhead blows it just into gills of some fish which just swims by, i guess it might kill it. It may also blow it across tank to corals and create many problems. I believe it must be doses into sump (and the far corner, not the one right next to return pump), so that once it reaches the animals it is already dispersed.

Just my 2cents, i hope you save rest of your animals,
B.

I saw your thread on humble. After readying this thread and reading yours, I was really torn of H2O2 is the way to go. You coming on here and explaining things kinda paints a clearer picture.

Did you experience a drop in h2o2 like the OP?

 

[Saltees]

I saw your thread on humble. After readying this thread and reading yours, I was really torn of H2O2 is the way to go. You coming on here and explaining things kinda paints a clearer picture.

Did you experience a drop in h2o2 like the OP?

I’m keen to know too. I’ll be checking on the 3% H2O2 concentrate, I bought the 5L bottle last DEC and kept it in the fridge since.

 

[Saltees]

Oh, and one more thing. My PBT was similarly covered with dots as yours, few other fish as well, and with these few guys I did the Peroxide dip (150ppm as recommended on humble fish). I think this was part of saving my fish, the bath helped them instantenously, and is very safe, tested by already dozens of reefers. So if any of your fish is struggling, covered with dots, and you can catch it (I was trying to catch my PBT for 3 days) I think it is very helpful part of the peroxide process.

Thanks again. As 30min H2O2 bath @ 150ppm goes, I am a subscriber, none of my fishes go in the display without one. Given the number of fishes I had and have, the only one that died in it, is a pencil wrasse… a very lively specimen prior bath. I do agree with Jay, H2O2 is “experimental” and comes with risks that you have to accept.

Back to this episode, I bathed 6 Anthias that were covered with ick and breathing heavy, ALL did made it pass the 30min bath but died within a hour thereafter. I am hesitant to catch the PBT, given that it’s substantially weaken and the additional stress may push it further south. On a good note the Gem Tang is responding well to H2O2 dosing, judging from the coat.

I’ll continue with H2O2 dosing till Amazon send me the COPPER POWER in earlier NOV.

 

[Saltees]

I have had a major outbreak of ich/velvet and succeeded to control it with peroxide following the advice on humble fish.

If I may say openly, i think, all the issues I read are because of anemonies releasing toxins. Whether anemonies got angry because of peroxide or else, does not matter, they are dangerous animals and I think they do not belong in reef tank.

Why I write this is because if people read this threat, I think it it important that people do not get worried of the peroxide method, but of keeping anemonies. The peroxide I believe is a very efficient and safe method, especially if you test with strips the peroxide in water as you do, and the peroxide is not responsible for the damages, the anemonies are.

With the peroxide I went even with much more intense night dosing, strictly checking with peroxide test not to exceed 1-2 ppm, and it literally saved my tank. I have lot of lps, softies, sps with acroporas, 20+ fish - and nothing died, everythink is ok after peroxide treatment (except shrimps where it was probably because of my stupidy).

One more think I have noticed, if you continue with the Peroxide dosing, is that you mention you put it directly to display tank. This I would be extremely worried about. Peroxide is a killing stuff, and if the powerhead blows it just into gills of some fish which just swims by, i guess it might kill it. It may also blow it across tank to corals and create many problems. I believe it must be doses into sump (and the far corner, not the one right next to return pump), so that once it reaches the animals it is already dispersed.

Just my 2cents, i hope you save rest of your animals,
B.

Thank you @Bolek . I agree with you totally that anemone is a walking time bomb in a mixed reef. I should have known better when my carpets went into hiding, and removed them promptly. My bad certainly. But I did arrest the situation promptly with 30% spot and 5% daily water changes and ROX carbon. H2O2+UV does help to oxide organics too.

Other than the WTB Tang, all fatalities are limited to the smaller fishes and corals. Inverts other than the anemones are pretty much going about their business as usual. I do wonder is there a correlation between the fish mass to the H2O2 dose.

Regarding the point of entry for H2O, I dose at the furthest end from the overflow of my peninsular, which is highly turbulent due to the crossing of two NEPTUNE WAVs’ paths. Fishes tend to avoid that area because of the very reason.I didn’t dose in the sump, cos I want the display to receive the full efficacy of the treatment, rather than a washed down version.

I have been following for HUMBLEFISH and REEF2REEF for a while on the subject of H2O2 dosing before attempting it myself. I take it as a “broken arrow” (final) management solution when the tank is overrun by ICH. And I love the way you came out with your enhanced dosing strategy over on JESSICAN’s thread over at HUMBLEFISH. Kudos!

Once I have established the dropped in H2O2 concentration after a dose, I may drop additional “bomb” dose in between the 6 hour period dose. Since I’m running the REDSEA DOSE4, I can just nicely utilize the remaining 3 of the maximum 24/day limit.

 

[Bolek]

I saw your thread on humble. After readying this thread and reading yours, I was really torn of H2O2 is the way to go. You coming on here and explaining things kinda paints a clearer picture.

Did you experience a drop in h2o2 like the OP?

My H2O2 is dropping suprisingly quick. In 30 minutes there is only a bit remaining, barely I can test it, after additional 10-15 minutes nothing I can test. After whole night of dosing every hour 1mL/5gal, in the morning there is nothing.

Also, it was somewhere explained, that it is a myth that H2O2 goes away if there is air bubbles, etc - the only thing which makes it go away is a bio load. So dropping it in a sump or skimmer, or anything before entering display tank does not decrease the concentration (and I think it is much safer).

But when there is no bioload it does not go away at all. I actually learned it the hard way. I had one fish in quarantine with TTM method, and I just dropped there my peroxide dose as well with the assumption that it goes away, and then added another does etc... to later find my fish dead. I was researching why and tested everything amonia, nitrites... everything ok. Then I just tried H2O2 test, even though I "knew" it would test at zero, because I have found the fish quite late after my last H2O2 dosing. I was shocked to read it super high, maybe 50 ppm. Then I started to test how it could be possible, to learn, that in a newly mixed rodi water with salt, will air bubbles everywhere and pump running, the peroxide stays there at full concentration for 24 hours. So dropping bomb after bomb accumulated. Therefor it is super critical to test in every tank how quickly it is dropping, as it depends on the bioload. I feed a lot, have a lot of fish, liverock, 5+ppm nitrates so lot of bioload for peroxide to degrade quickly.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

My H2O2 is dropping suprisingly quick. In 30 minutes there is only a bit remaining, barely I can test it, after additional 10-15 minutes nothing I can test. After whole night of dosing every hour 1mL/5gal, in the morning there is nothing.

Also, it was somewhere explained, that it is a myth that H2O2 goes away if there is air bubbles, etc - the only thing which makes it go away is a bio load. So dropping it in a sump or skimmer, or anything before entering display tank does not decrease the concentration (and I think it is much safer).

But when there is no bioload it does not go away at all. I actually learned it the hard way. I had one fish in quarantine with TTM method, and I just dropped there my peroxide dose as well with the assumption that it goes away, and then added another does etc... to later find my fish dead. I was researching why and tested everything amonia, nitrites... everything ok. Then I just tried H2O2 test, even though I "knew" it would test at zero, because I have found the fish quite late after my last H2O2 dosing. I was shocked to read it super high, maybe 50 ppm. Then I started to test how it could be possible, to learn, that in a newly mixed rodi water with salt, will air bubbles everywhere and pump running, the peroxide stays there at full concentration for 24 hours. So dropping bomb after bomb accumulated. Therefor it is super critical to test in every tank how quickly it is dropping, as it depends on the bioload. I feed a lot, have a lot of fish, liverock, 5+ppm nitrates so lot of bioload for peroxide to degrade quickly.

Yes, when I ran my bench testing the first thing I discovered was that aeration does not directly break down the peroxide.
Organic loading, compounds that act as peroxidases, are what breaks it down. My issue is that these compounds tend to decrease with subsequent additions, meaning that people need to test and adjust their dose. If they keep adding the same amount each day, they can end up with rising peroxide levels.
Jay