Why was an Alkalinity of 8 too high?

[Luucky13]

I definitely believe that every tank is different. This is the first tank that no matter what I seem to do, the Alk gets back down to 6.5 - 7 dkh, I slowly bring it back up with dosing to 8 - 8.5 and within a month it will settle back down. Even after increasing my calcium reactor drip. I have since just decided to kept it there, and it's been doing amazing. Today's reading was 6.5 dkh. I think as long as it's stable, you'll be fine (Within reason of course).

 

[ocncheffy]

This is complicated but important. Alk of 8 is not too high unless you are driving nitrogen and phosphorous below natural levels with media or chemicals which would growth limit organic tissue... or you are fishless and have no available building blocks.

Have to understand that having nitrate and one kind of phosphate on a test kit is not an indication of if a coral is deprived of nitrogen or phosphorous. You can have corals be deficient in both nitrogen and phosphorous if you do not have them in available forms for corals to use. Nitrate test is fools gold. The one kind of phosphate that you test for with a kit can be fools gold.

Your corals need available nitrogen usually through ammonia/ammonium and nobody really knows which kind, of the many, of phosphates that all corals use, so the several different kinds from fish waste are also a good idea. Too few corals (hosts) can convert nitrate back into nitrogen and the few that can spend an enormous amount of energy to do so.

...so you can have nitrogen and phosphorous deficient corals even with nitrate and one kind of phosphate showing up on a test kit.

This theory sounds exactly like my issue. It’s almost like the SPS and even some LPS are not happy/starving while trying to maintain 8.0 DKH with .1 phosphates managed with GFO. I’ve removed the GFO reactor for the time being to see if I notice further improvements as well.

 

[amazongb]

TLDR; How are you testing ALK? I've had issues with Hanna.. one reagent read 7.0, a new reagent reads 8.5. My hunch is testing error somewhere, but your P04 indicates that even higher alk shouldn't cause burnt tips. That said, I've had burnt tips many times for no reason.

 

[ocncheffy]

TLDR; How are you testing ALK? I've had issues with Hanna.. one reagent read 7.0, a new reagent reads 8.5. My hunch is testing error somewhere, but your P04 indicates that even higher alk shouldn't cause burnt tips. That said, I've had burnt tips many times for no reason.

This was my first assumption, that the Hannah was reading wrong. I then got a NYOS kit, and an aquaforest kit with a reference solution. All are within range of the Hannah.

 

[moz71]

This was my first assumption, that the Hannah was reading wrong. I then got a NYOS kit, and an aquaforest kit with a reference solution. All are within range of the Hannah.

Consider yourself lucky you found a stable spot that everything is happy! If I saw SPS healing and growing I would jump for joy. I think I found my stable spot SPS are happy but growth not great but healthy and now my clam seem to stop growing but happy. Hence why consider yourself lucky!!!!!

 

[Dlealrious]

So I've been fighting with some burnt tips/STN on my SPS with the following parameters:

Alk - 8.1
Calcium - 450
Phosphate - .1
Nitrate - 10
Mag - 1400

I understand that low nutrients of near 0 can cause burnt tips/STN in SPS, but I would have never thought that the levels posted above were considered low nutrients. Since dropping my alkalinity to NSW 7.0, most SPS have healed up nicely. My lighting is set up for around 200 PAR at the top of the rockwork, with dual XR15 G4 pro's and Reefbrite strips. This took me months to figure out, and an ICP test, but nothing conclusive came back. Has anyone else experienced similar issues with requiring Alkalinity at around 7.0?

Note - Testing of alk was done with Hannah, NYOS, and Aquaforest for triple confirmation


*Edit backstory:


Some backstory:

A year ago I let my phosphates rise to .4ppm and ran alkalinity of around 8-8.5 at the time. I then decided to slowly drop my phosphates down to .1-.15 in hopes of increasing growth. Issues started a few months after this change in mid 2021. However, at .4 my tank looked amazing and SPS were taking off quickly. Could it simply be that my tank doesn't like having such low Orthophoshates (Hannah ULR Testing) and the balance was better when it was at .4? I know Mark from SaltwaterAquarium runs his phosphates at .5ppm and has crazy growth.

I don't know if I should go down the road again of simply letting my phosphates do what they want, yet that is also when my tank looked it's best... Thoughts?

Did you have any pics of your coral, thats some real low par, would like to see how it colours coral

 

[Dlealrious]

This gives me a peace of mind, my alk is at 7.5 my tank is fairly new, only started adding corals 3 weeks ago but they all look happy.

7.5 is perfect, i can drop 1dkh and not have issues

 

[MaxTremors]

From everything I’ve read on the subject, this idea that there are two (or more) types of phosphorus in our tanks or in sea water and that only being able to test for one somehow makes the test results unreliable, inaccurate, incomplete, or meaningless is at best misleading and at worst just incorrect. There are several types of phosphorus in sea water and in our tanks, but the vast majority, as in over 95%, is phosphate (NO43-). There is organophosphate, which is phosphate that is organically bound to living things and is created through biological processes. Since this form of phosphate is bound up in living tissue, it can’t be tested for. Then there is orthophosphate which is the inorganic form of phosphate that is dissolved in the water column and is available for living things to absorb and convert to organophosphate. This is the phosphate that we test for. There is a constant recycling of ortho to organo and vice versa as living things die and are broken down and as living things bind those phosphates in living tissue. The orthophosphate that we test for is giving you the whole picture in terms of the available inorganic phosphate that is available for corals, plants, and all living things in our tanks to use. The amount of organophosphate in our tanks is largely irrelevant, other than it’s cyclical relationship with orthophosphate.

I am not a chemist, and if my reading of how this works is wrong, I’m happy to admit it, but how I understand it, it just isn’t accurate to say there are two types of phosphate and we can only test for one, so the test results are meaningless.

Also, there is nothing wrong with running your Alk at 7dkh. Yes, it’s good to have some wiggle room in either direction, but I’d much rather run my tank at 7dkh and have the potential for it to drop to 5 or 6 than run it at 12dkh and have the potential for it to spike to 13 or 14, IME a dip in Alk is much more forgivable than a spike.

 

[Miss the future]

But the fact is you don't want to run your alkalinity that high if you have lower nutrients. That will also cause burnt tips. So that blanket statement of alkalinity really doesn't apply in all cases.

By nutrients, do you mean inorganic salts or organic substances such as fish manure and coral food？

 

[Dburr1014]

By nutrients, do you mean inorganic salts or organic substances such as fish manure and coral food？

N and P

 

[Miss the future]

N and P

If I want to maintain 9-10kh, what is the minimum content of NO3 and PO4？

 

[air_run]

I’m assuming you know you can’t run your alk long term at 7…
what test kit are you using and how old are the reagents ?
either way I’d confirm my alk reading and slowly raise it to NSW if you got the nerve, …. IME 8.1 is my lowest gamble
forgot to add, no I’ve never seen anything happy at 7 Dkh

Aquaforest would like to have a word with you.

 

[Dburr1014]

If I want to maintain 9-10kh, what is the minimum content of NO3 and PO4？

.1 p and 10 n
Every tank is different but this might be a good place to start.
You may be able to get less po4. But no3, I know I have problems. My po4 is constantly at 0.08/0.12 but my no3 has always been less than 1. I just recently got them up to 2. I see my tips getting pale and I dose 0.08 ppm or more. Usually every other day or 3 days.

 

[Cool tangs]

Let's get ranty and this is my argument as well. Whilst people have run alkalinity higher, I am tired of all these big names on YouTube saying otherwise. I've had the worst luck running my alk higher then 8.5

I run my tank at no more then 8dkh as anything in the high range causes more issues then good. I can't stress this enough especially for beginners in the hobby you will have more corals bleach at higher dkh then lower in my own experience.

I run my tank at natural sea water, as I source my water from the ocean and I've had more success keeping acro especially wild court witch is mostly all we can get in aus anyway. As frags are basically an insult to Aussie reefers when we can buy colonies for cheaper then these so called high end named frags.

Don't get me wrong higher alk can be done, but I feel that new hobbyists should aim for NSW in my opinion for better success out the box.

Happy reefing

 

[ocncheffy]

It seems like dropping alkalinity to 7.3-7.5 has stopped any sort of additional burnt tips/STN. It's still curious though on why I was having those issues when Nitrate was >10 and phosphates are .15ppm. I'm a little worried to add GFO to help maintain phosphates as I seemed to always have some issues, even when dropping it a little bit at a time.

I went to my LFS and they have a stellar SPS dominant tank, and their phosphates are off the charts! My Nyos test kit showed over 1.0ppm. Amazing growth and polyp extension. All the LFS does is maintain calcium and alk at 8. I'm half thinking to just go this method and avoid touching my phosphate level and let the tank do it's thing. FYI I do have a large refugium to help keep nitrates in check as well.

 

[jerl77]

8.5 / 9 for the last 20 years

 

[Doctorgori]

I should have NEVER said you can’t run NSW parameters (parameters actually vary world wide). Blanket and absolute statements in a hobby with so many interacting variables is dumb and a poor choice of words, especially since animals evolved in those parameters.

Then again our lights aren’t set to “natural sun light” either. Whatever arguments or excuses you have for that deviation could likewise be applied against running tanks at NSW: artificial environments are different in spite of our duplication efforts..

Honestly it’s just never been able to keep anything happy down there in the 7’s nor really above 11dkh. Could be some coupling or combination of water chemistry with pH, lighting, nutrients et that I don’t understand at low dKh’s

whatever parameters you endorse or run I can’t seem to find (or understand) any actual biological chemistry on what’s optimal in artificial environments. I admit BRS vids had some compelling arguments but never said “can’t”

 

[gbroadbridge]

I’m assuming you know you can’t run your alk long term at 7…
what test kit are you using and how old are the reagents ?
either way I’d confirm my alk reading and slowly raise it to NSW if you got the nerve, …. IME 8.1 is my lowest gamble
forgot to add, no I’ve never seen anything happy at 7 Dkh

Both my LFS run their big SPS and LPS coral systems at 7dKh.

 

[Doctorgori]

1

Aquaforest would like to have a word with you.

Both my LFS run their big SPS and LPS coral systems at 7dKh.

no arguments here, what I said was wrong. Obviously You can always run at NSW params.
Looking back on it I’ve been in heated debates over using daylight type bulbs, lower temps, et et to match nsw params. Maybe I’ve turned into my opponents

A much better statement would have been to narrow it to a risk management thing or a implementation/delivery thing for running low dkH. Totally feasible above 8dkh is outside optimal

 

[Doctorgori]

It seems like dropping alkalinity to 7.3-7.5 has stopped any sort of additional burnt tips/STN. It's still curious though on why I was having those issues when Nitrate was >10 and phosphates are .15ppm. I'm a little worried to add GFO to help maintain phosphates as I seemed to always have some issues, even when dropping it a little bit at a time.

I went to my LFS and they have a stellar SPS dominant tank, and their phosphates are off the charts! My Nyos test kit showed over 1.0ppm. Amazing growth and polyp extension. All the LFS does is maintain calcium and alk at 8. I'm half thinking to just go this method and avoid touching my phosphate level and let the tank do it's thing. FYI I do have a large refugium to help keep nitrates in check as well.

I’d like to see a real comprehensive study of someone pushing past NSW params in both directions with all the accompanying other parameters tabled out measuring coral growth. Since obviously multiple methods and parameter combinations work, we can’t really parse out what’s optimal against biological adaptability