White Lighting As It Pertains To Algae

[Lavey29]

Most likely to make the coral colors pop more and thus more enticing to the buyer

These are not places that deal in individual public sales. They sell quantity to LFS shops. Their light configuration is for optimal growth and minimal algae issues. Yes some corals pop more under different lighting but that's now why big vendors use the minimal white spectrum.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

We disagree and will leave it at that. You provided nothing to support your opinion and I picked 2 random links to support mine and my input in this thread is complete. Don't know why I bought my radions. Should have just used a home depot bright white light over my tank. Oh well, live and learn

Out of curiousity, what do you think my opinion is? Because I never shared what my opinion is.

 

[Lavey29]

Out of curiousity, what do you think my opinion is? Because I never shared what my opinion is.

With all due respect, I could care less. Opinions are like A holes....everyone has one. Have a good day and much success with your reefing hobby.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Dana did a big write up many years ago for a MACNA presentation that demonstrating spectrum does have a direct impact on growth. Equivelant PAR will favor different corals and algae this isn't even a debate. Every industry from coral growers to weed farms know this and target specific spectrums for different uses.

This article is from 2002 and has references all the way back to the 80s.

Lighting the Reef Aquarium – Spectrum or Intensity?

This month Dana and Miguel discuss the importance of spectrum and intensity of aquarium lighting.

reefs.com

That article does not say what you claim that it says. Almost the opposite, actually.

"This experiment’s results suggest information potentially valuable for hobbyists – that rates of photosynthesis were essentially the same under these two distinctly different light sources. Other than aesthetic value, there appears to be no advantage, photosynthetically speaking, in using high Kelvin lamps.

The implication of these results should be of interest to hobbyists; it suggests that lamp selection (with due regard to lamp intensity) may be based on appeal, whether that is price or
the “look” it gives to a tank, without fear of hindering photosynthesis. Economy-minded hobbyists and coral farmers may find this especially useful. It appears that light intensity and relatively simple light measurements alone adequately judge lamp efficiencies within the context of zooxanthellae photosynthesis. This should not be construed to mean that all light sources are adequate for reef aquaria use."

Was there any mention in the entire article about controlling algae?

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

With all due respect, I could care less. Opinions are like A holes....everyone has one. Have a good day and much success with your reefing hobby.

Neat. So you assume to know my opinion, you assume to know how much research that I have or haven't done, just like you assume to be correct about reducing white light?

Then you claim that I'm wrong about all the things that you assume.

I envy your psychic abilities.

 

[reefinatl]

That article does not say what you claim that it says. Almost the opposite, actually.

"This experiment’s results suggest information potentially valuable for hobbyists – that rates of photosynthesis were essentially the same under these two distinctly different light sources. Other than aesthetic value, there appears to be no advantage, photosynthetically speaking, in using high Kelvin lamps.

The implication of these results should be of interest to hobbyists; it suggests that lamp selection (with due regard to lamp intensity) may be based on appeal, whether that is price or
the “look” it gives to a tank, without fear of hindering photosynthesis. Economy-minded hobbyists and coral farmers may find this especially useful. It appears that light intensity and relatively simple light measurements alone adequately judge lamp efficiencies within the context of zooxanthellae photosynthesis. This should not be construed to mean that all light sources are adequate for reef aquaria use."

Was there any mention in the entire article about controlling algae?

See the 2nd article with regards to the effect of red light on plant growth. Apologies for the late edit.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

The influence of different light wavelengths on plant growth ⋆ VERTIKIT

Dr William Stiles – Aberystwyth University The technology of controlled environment agriculture (CEA) is fast developing and is increasingly recognised as an important component of future food production. A key advancement which has enhanced the potential for this approach to horticultural...

www.vertikit.co.uk

Red light (600-700 nm) – light from the red wavelengths is the main driver of vegetative growth. This means more leaves and more biomass

White, if you did not know contains the whole of the spectrum including red. By reducing white, assuming you are running very little to no red, you will reduce the "main driver of vegetative growth".

I agree that red light has specific effects on terrestrial plants. I am aware that abundant red light has negative effects on coral growth.

However, it has not been shown that red light has the same effects on marine algae, especially marine algae that evolved for deep water where there is no natural red light.

Perhaps a small amount of red being present in white does accelerate photosynthesis in marine algaes. However, the chlorophyl that uses red spectrum also exists in zooxanthellae, and there is no reason to believe that it isn't also speeding up photosynthesis in zooxanthellae by an equal amount. Reducing the red will reduce the photosynthesis by chlorophyll, but replacing it with an equal amount of blue will just speed it right back up. And I haven't seen any reason to believe that the coral isn't being effected in the exact same way as the marine algae is.

So the question stands, if you are slowing down the growth of marine algae by reducing white light, are you also slowing down the growth of every other photosynthetic bit of life in the tank? And if you are slowing everything down equally, then are you actually gaining an advantage by doing it? If there is an advantage, then how much of an advantage, and by what mechanism is it working?

 

[reefinatl]

.
Again apologies for forgetting that 2nd half in the initial post.

The take away for me is a bluer spectrum vs whiter spectrum won't necessarily inhibit coral growth, but removing whites/red can inhibit vegetative growth.

I will grant it to you that there is not a lot of data with regards to spectrum effect on marine algae but my unscientific opinion is algae is similar enough to terrestrial plants that the data should crossover fine.

This is all just entertainment for me anyhow. I run very white by modern standards. My two tanks are set to mimic my 14k phoenix for most of the day with bluer ramps on either side of the peak. As stated previously I think running pure blue is an amateur crutch.

Maybe time to run a fuge or two under blues, reds, and whites but controlling for nutrient input would be a pain.

 

[ptrick21186]

But again going back to my original post.....white technically isn't even part of the spectrum of sunlight. It's the combination of ALL colors. The color of the sun would technically be white. So again eliminating your white channel on your lights shouldn't be doing anything other than lowering PAR.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

.
Again apologies for forgetting that 2nd half in the initial post.

The take away for me is a bluer spectrum vs whiter spectrum won't necessarily inhibit coral growth, but removing whites/red can inhibit vegetative growth.

I will grant it to you that there is not a lot of data with regards to spectrum effect on marine algae but my unscientific opinion is algae is similar enough to terrestrial plants that the data should crossover fine.

This is all just entertainment for me anyhow. I run very white by modern standards. My two tanks are set to mimic my 14k phoenix for most of the day with bluer ramps on either side of the peak. As stated previously I think running pure blue is an amateur crutch.

Maybe time to run a fuge or two under blues, reds, and whites but controlling for nutrient input would be a paid.

Even if you did that fuge experiment, it still wouldn't necessarily solve the actual question. Both coral and algae can grow under any reasonable spectrum of light, regardless of blue or white.

So it's not a matter of "will this grow algae or not". We know the answer is "yes". It's more about, "does a particular spectrum of light favor the growth of coral MORE THAN the growth of algae". Because changing the display lights from white to blue as a form of algae control, only makes sense if you're putting the algae at a disadvantage compare to coral.

A better test would be to set up a high nutrient tank with a fast growing coral like Xenia, along with different spectrums of light and a seed of nuisance algaes, and running them for 6 months and seeing which kills which.

The lights that result in a tank full of xenia and no algae are the winners. The tanks that result in a mess of algae and no xenia are the losers.

 

[ptrick21186]

Even if you did that fuge experiment, it still wouldn't necessarily solve the actual question. Both coral and algae can grow under any reasonable spectrum of light, regardless of blue or white.

So it's not a matter of "will this grow algae or not". We know the answer is "yes". It's more about, "does a particular spectrum of light favor the growth of coral MORE THAN the growth of algae". Because changing the display lights from white to blue as a form of algae control, only makes sense if you're putting the algae at a disadvantage compare to coral.

A better test would be to set up a high nutrient tank with a fast growing coral like Xenia, along with different spectrums of light and a seed of nuisance algaes, and running them for 6 months and seeing which kills which.

The lights that result in a tank full of xenia and no algae are the winners. The tanks that result in a mess of algae and no xenia are the losers.

These tanks would have to be plumbed together and preferably in different rooms where the independent lighting wouldn't effect each other

 

[Bpb]

I think the simple fact that most intermediate to advanced hobbyists can and do tune their lights however they see fit, and that ranges from extreme white to solid blue, and rarely do they post “how can I tackle this algae issue?” SOS style threads, even on new tanks, has big implications. It was mentioned, lighting adjustments are a bandaid or a crutch to controlling algae. If algae can be controlled even in a brand new tank, regardless of lighting, that alone should quell the sentiment that white light causes it.

It’s a limiting factor…sure. But it isn’t the “culprit”

Also, there are plenty of large scale importers and retailers alike that use white leaning light on their stock tanks. It just comes down to the preference of the ones in charge

 

[vetteguy53081]

That article does not say what you claim that it says. Almost the opposite, actually.

"This experiment’s results suggest information potentially valuable for hobbyists – that rates of photosynthesis were essentially the same under these two distinctly different light sources. Other than aesthetic value, there appears to be no advantage, photosynthetically speaking, in using high Kelvin lamps.

The implication of these results should be of interest to hobbyists; it suggests that lamp selection (with due regard to lamp intensity) may be based on appeal, whether that is price or
the “look” it gives to a tank, without fear of hindering photosynthesis. Economy-minded hobbyists and coral farmers may find this especially useful. It appears that light intensity and relatively simple light measurements alone adequately judge lamp efficiencies within the context of zooxanthellae photosynthesis. This should not be construed to mean that all light sources are adequate for reef aquaria use."

Was there any mention in the entire article about controlling algae?

We all have various types of lights, depths, coral and what suits you is the best answer. Many use PAR meters, just go by what looks good to the naked eye and even myself- What makes my coral happy.

 

[ptrick21186]

I'm currently scouring the interweb looking for any sort of study and cannot find much. Aside from reefing forums/articles written by various unconfirmed people, I can't find any proof that lowering/shutting off your white channel effects algae growth. Leading me to believe that this is nothing more than an urban legend passed around the reefing community

 

[reefinatl]

But again going back to my original post.....white technically isn't even part of the spectrum of sunlight. It's the combination of ALL colors. The color of the sun would technically be white. So again eliminating your white channel on your lights shouldn't be doing anything other than lowering PAR.

If all channels are 100% and you drop white only you are simply lowering par, but if the white is is composed equally of all the colors and blue is 100% and Red is 1%.

Even if you did that fuge experiment, it still wouldn't necessarily solve the actual question. Both coral and algae can grow under any reasonable spectrum of light, regardless of blue or white.

So it's not a matter of "will this grow algae or not". We know the answer is "yes". It's more about, "does a particular spectrum of light favor the growth of coral MORE THAN the growth of algae". Because changing the display lights from white to blue as a form of algae control, only makes sense if you're putting the algae at a disadvantage compare to coral.

A better test would be to set up a high nutrient tank with a fast growing coral like Xenia, along with different spectrums of light and a seed of nuisance algaes, and running them for 6 months and seeing which kills which.

The lights that result in a tank full of xenia and no algae are the winners. The tanks that result in a mess of algae and no xenia are the losers.

Someone should do it. I just don't care that much and barely have time to maintain the two tanks I have.

When discussing fast growing corals though I did run a fun little experiment between GSP, Yellow Polyps, and Xenia. Xenia conquered that little fluval in no time at all.

 

[reefinatl]

3 5g aquariums plumbed off a manifold split coming from a 10g aquarium with seeded live rock and a cube of mysis added once per week. 10g would be blacked out with black vinyl and black acrylic top to force all growth into the 5g tanks.

1oz of chaeto added to each tank.

3 cheap LED lights. Tune each to only white, red & blue respectively but different percentages to account for total watts being equalized vs channel percentages.

4 weeks weigh the chaeto and compare?

It would be pretty hilarious to find it makes no difference and all the red light sump lights and algae scrubbers are pointless.

 

[madlos123]

Heres my tank.
90 gallon 1 year and 9 months old tank.
Lighted with 2 250 Watts 10,000K SE Metal Halide 5 hours each day. 12 inch from the water surface.
Cant get any whiter than that unless you want pee yellow light which is 6,500 K lol.
I only get to see this tank once a week since its at my parents house currently.
I run 30 - 40 ppm nitrates and 0.1 ppm Phosphates.
I have a diy trash can chaeto reactor in my sump with 3 hours light time.
I do have algae but I dont have problems with algae. Algae dont go nuts because I have white light. Actually I use algae to gauge if I have good nutrients for the corals to grow. If I dont get algae on the glass, my corals are pale and have slower growth.

I also only have one tomini tang, i got probably less than 20 snails combined from trocus to astrea to cerith. I have one fighting conch snail. I dont mess with my sand.

Here my proof and video
All white light no other supplements.

Heres another video after doing my weekly cleaning on the same day from the video above.
This is with t5 actinic about 1 hour before night time.
Heres my Channel for more video

https://m.youtube.com/@madlos123

 

[ptrick21186]

3 5g aquariums plumbed off a manifold split coming from a 10g aquarium with seeded live rock and a cube of mysis added once per week. 10g would be blacked out with black vinyl and black acrylic top to force all growth into the 5g tanks.

1oz of chaeto added to each tank.

3 cheap LED lights. Tune each to only white, red & blue respectively but different percentages to account for total watts being equalized vs channel percentages.

4 weeks weigh the chaeto and compare?

It would be pretty hilarious to find it makes no difference and all the red light sump lights and algae scrubbers are pointless.

I really wanna test this theory.....

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

I'm currently scouring the interweb looking for any sort of study and cannot find much. Aside from reefing forums/articles written by various unconfirmed people, I can't find any proof that lowering/shutting off your white channel effects algae growth. Leading me to believe that this is nothing more than an urban legend passed around the reefing community

I haven't gone looking too much into the specifics of algal growth under various light conditions at this point, but oreo54's post on page 1 here gives some idea of the complexities involved with this discussion/research (i.e. what the "white" in the light itself is, the kind of algae involved, etc.). That said, from what I've found, there are currently only two things I've come across that are scientifically researched that seem to possibly support the idea that lowering "white light" and/or running just blue light decreases algal growth (and one of them I'd feel a lot more confident about the assertion that it might lead to a decreased amount of algae if Randy thinks there a chance it would be impactful/meaningful from the chemistry side of things):

1 ) Most algae use Chlorophyll A and some other kind of Chlorophyll (B, C, or D), while corals basically use just Chlorophyll A (this is an extreme simplification - there are a number of other important pigments involved as well, and some corals technically use a little Chlorophyll C as well); in theory, by hitting just the spectrum for Chlorophyll A by using just blue light, it could potentially provide corals an edge over the algae (I haven't seen studies done on if it actually does provide an edge or not though, and I would assume any edge given is small).

2 ) This is the one where I don't know enough about the chemistry involved yet to know for sure if it would even matter, but:

Corals will still grow under just blue light, yes. As mentioned, changing from white and blue or just white to just blue will likely impact the coral's growth, coloration, and possibly health (if the coral is from deep water rather than shallow water, using just blue light will likely increase coral growth and health - if the coral is from shallow water, switching to just blue may decrease the growth and health).* Switching to blue light from white or white/blue will also impact any photosynthesis going on in the tank:

"More importantly, under blue light calcification is very high, even higher than under full spectrum, while photosynthesis remains below the compensation point, meaning that CO2 production is higher than consumption (Figure 4B)." **

*Source:

Green fluorescent protein-like pigments optimise the internal light environment in symbiotic reef-building corals

Scalar irradiance microsensor measurements performed inside the tissue of living corals show that absorption and fluorescence emission by host pigments produce dramatic spectral alterations in the light environment experienced by the symbionts.

elifesciences.org

**Source:

Light Enhanced Calcification in Hermatypic Corals: New Insights from Light Spectral Responses

Light enhanced calcification (LEC) is a well-documented phenomenon in reef-building corals. The main mechanism proposed for LEC is that photosynthetic CO2 uptake by the algal symbionts elevates the pH and thus enhances calcification. We evaluated the role of light and of photosynthesis on...

www.frontiersin.org

***This third link reinforces both of the points listed with the other links:

spectral quality of light is a key driver of photosynthesis and photoadaptation in Stylophora pistillata colonies from different depths in the Red Sea

SUMMARYDepth zonation on coral reefs is largely driven by the amount of downwelling, photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) that is absorbed by the symbiotic algae (zooxanthellae) of corals. The minimum light requirements of zooxanthellae are related to both the total intensity of downwelling...

journals.biologists.com

In my mind, photosynthesis remaining below the compensation point could potentially mean that the blue lighting rather than white lighting helps limit algae by reducing available oxygen in the tank, but - again - I'd run this one by Randy to see if it might be valid.
(P.S. the quote above is - I'd imagine - why many big coral sellers run full blue lighting: maximizing coral growth; importantly, however, as noted, this maximized growth under blue light may only apply to deeper-water corals.)

Anyway, as mentioned, there's also a chance that lowering PAR by decreasing the white channel on your lighting could also decrease the amount of algal growth simply by limiting the potential energy uptake of the algae.

So, there are a few things that indicate that decreasing white lighting could potentially reduce algal growth, but whether it actually would reduce it or not has - to my knowledge - not actually been studied at this point.

Regardless, at this point in time, since there's not really any solid evidence that running just blue reduces algae growth, I'd suggest it may be better to decide if you want white lighting or blue lighting based on 1 ) whether your corals are from deep water or shallow water, and/or 2 ) if you want your coral fluorescence to really pop or if you want to be able to see your fish/other inhabitants' colors better.

Some other, pertinent information:

From what I've read, it's because algae generally uses different light wavelengths for photosynthesis than coral zooxanthellae do - corals using more blue light, and algae using more red and green/yellow.
For a simple explanation, here's a graph from Khan Academy about photosynthesis and light absorption:
View attachment 2722837
I wish I could find the graphs that I've seen specifically for corals/algae, but I can't remember where I've seen them. Anyway, basically the "Windex" blue light tanks use that spectrum (and some people recommend it over using white/red lights) because - at least theoretically - the corals do fine using primarily the Chlorophyll A provided by the deep blue while essentially starving out the algae by not providing the green/yellow and red lights for Chlorophyll B and Beta Carotene. I've seen some more complicated charts of this with more absorbing pigments than just these three (Chlorophyll C, Chlorophyll D, PSC, and PPC to name a few), but - again - I can't find the ones I've seen for corals which would be more useful, and this one gets the point across.

So, the theory is that you feed the corals with blue light, and the algae with other lights. By reducing the other lights, you stop feeding the algae/give the corals the competitive edge. That's why people say to reduce intensity of other colors to stop algae. How accurate that theory is would likely depend on the specific corals and algae involved, but the theory seems relatively sound when speaking broadly. Since many (possibly most) algae species utilize Chlorophyll A, I have no idea if it's effective or not, but there is a chance that it gives corals the edge they need to beat out algae. I'm not aware of any studies that actually show one way or the other though.

With regards to the "... old ones grow algae!" - here's a quote from Dana Riddle on it that basically says it's possible following the same lines of reasoning listed above, but he's not (or at least wasn't) sure if it was true:

In case you're curious, here's a graph from the paper linked below that shows different classes of algae use different spectrums of light for their photosynthesis:
View attachment 2722859

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333210678_Algal_Biofuels_Current_Status_and_Key_Challenges

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

1 ) Most algae use Chlorophyll A and some other kind of Chlorophyll (B, C, or D), while corals basically use just Chlorophyll A (this is an extreme simplification - there are a number of other important pigments involved as well, and some corals technically use a little Chlorophyll C as well); in theory, by hitting just the spectrum for Chlorophyll A by using just blue light, it could potentially provide corals an edge over the algae (I haven't seen studies done on if it actually does provide an edge or not though, and I would assume any edge given is small).

I'm not sure if that logic is sound. Corals and algae both use Chlorophyll A. So if you use the spectrum of light that activates Chlorophyll A you can somehow feed coral while starving algae? Even though they both use the same Chlorophyll A?

Some other, pertinent information:

Regarding the absorption spectra of various photosynthetic pigments; I deeply enjoyed this thread recently. It raises some very thought-provoking points about green light in particular.

A Spectrophotometer view of Photosynthetic Organisms in our Tanks

Recently I got my hands on a spectrophotometer. I wanted to take a peek at absorption spectra of organisms that grow in our tanks and see if I could identify pigments other than Chlorophyll A - the accessory pigments - to start to drill down on possible differences between the ways they use...

www.reef2reef.com