Which Live Sand?

taricha

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Since the rock I have is natural, ocean harvested rock from Indonesia, do you think dry sand would be just fine? Not only would it save a lot of money but I feel there likely isnt much bacterial diversity in bags of live sand aside from a few nitrifying strains. (I dont have evidence of this, however.) Id imagine the bacteria on the live ocean rocks will spread fairly rapidly. Do you think dry sand will give me an "ugly phase" though? Ive always used live sand, never dry before.
I think this makes a lot of sense. If I already had ocean substrate from indonesia, I certainly wouldn't pay for the bacteria caribsea can keep alive in a bag of sand.
It'll have a little ugly phase. If I cared about that a lot, I might let the sand condition in a dark space in the system for a while first.
 

CoastalTownLayabout

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When you rewind back to the DSB days the process was high quality live rock on a deep dry sand bed. Putting aside bacterial transfer from live rock to dry sand, the real magic in these set ups were the micro organisms that quickly colonised the sand bed.

If you have access to fresh live rock I see absolutely no point in using a commercial live sand product.
 
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livinlifeinBKK

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I think this makes a lot of sense. If I already had ocean substrate from indonesia, I certainly wouldn't pay for the bacteria caribsea can keep alive in a bag of sand.
It'll have a little ugly phase. If I cared about that a lot, I might let the sand condition in a dark space in the system for a while first.
Since I'm about to be making a diving trip to The Philippines for a week to shoot dive videos for my new YouTube channel and take photos for the articles I write, I'll set the wifi controlled light I have on the tank to only come on for short periods each day while I'm gone. Im adding the sand tomorrow so the tank can have a week to do what it naturally will. Does 4 hours of light per day at a low intensity sound like it'll help? Ill have my friend visiting and giving me updates as well as dosing a little phyto for the microfauna to feed on daily and the gobies will go in the tank about a week after I get back. Nutrients won't be very high since the phyto is live and during that week no other nutrient sources will be added.
 
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When you rewind back to the DSB days the process was high quality live rock on a deep dry sand bed. Putting aside bacterial transfer from live rock to dry sand, the real magic in these set ups were the micro organisms that quickly colonised the sand bed.

If you have access to fresh live rock I see absolutely no point in using a commercial live sand product.
Exactly! I already have copepods and amphipods climbing the glass and the rock came with other microfauna as well! I think the dry coral rubble will also help grow a sizeable copepod and amphipod population as well since it adds even more structure to the build which they can take refuge in. Like I mentioned earlier, I've also been adding small doses of live phyto nightly.
 

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TBS definitely wouldnt ship here haha...however, I can get a handful of sand from one of the islands here or while visiting the Philippines to seed it later...id prefer not to have to though
I would not hesitate to grab a handful from a nice beach or underwater location near growing corals, especially since TBS isn't willing to ship.

Actually, I think it would be safer for the ecosystem to grab local and prevent outside introductions to where you are at.

No judgement, just thinking out loud. :cool:
 

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I have used diver collected live sand & live rock from TBS & Gulf Live Rock. Both are excellent products with differrent micro fauna & fana. My focus is filter feeders like flame scallops & nps corals, so I seed to maximize biodiversity.
 
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I have used diver collected live sand & live rock from TBS & Gulf Live Rock. Both are excellent products with differrent micro fauna & fana. My focus is filter feeders like flame scallops & nps corals, so I seed to maximize biodiversity.
Thats always been my goal as well. However, this particular setup is a breeding tank. My only fear of using natural live sand would be possible egg eating organisms being present (I know the chances of that are slim but I probably wont risk it aside from seeding the dry sand with a handful and mixing it in possibly).
 

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Thats always been my goal as well. However, this particular setup is a breeding tank. My only fear of using natural live sand would be possible egg eating organisms being present (I know the chances of that are slim but I probably wont risk it aside from seeding the dry sand with a handful and mixing it in possibly).
For what you are doing, biodiversity in sand is not particularly useful unless used as a food source for fish larvae.
 
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For what you are doing, biodiversity in sand is not particularly useful unless used as a food source for fish larvae.
Well I'll be adding some corals as well. You mentioned you keep NPS. NPS corals are actually some of my favorite in the hobby, particularly black sun corals which Ive kept a few of. I actually enjoy feeding each polyp a small piece of mysis daily.
 

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The nps that I have are gorgonions. However, they are hardy and don’t require hand feeding as the microbial loop from biodiversity feeds them.



 
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Very interesting...I've always seen valie in biodiversity regardless partially for the same reason it works so well in nature: redundancy among niches, cycling of various nutrients aside from nitrogen compounds, as a source of food for other organisms, amd others.
As a benthic-dwelling species, Greissinger gobies naturally use a variety of microfaunal organisms as a source of food so I'm encouraging biodiversity in this tank too. Many of the microfaunal organisms they feed on likely feed on various other, smaller organisms aside from phytoplankton and high biodiversity would increase the likelihood of their presence.
 

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TBS definitely wouldnt ship here haha...however, I can get a handful of sand from one of the islands here or while visiting the Philippines to seed it later...id prefer not to have to though
Local sand from pristine waters would be my choice being one is hoping to retrieve more than just bottled bacteria which appears to be AF approach but not sure about the other so called live sand options that are packaged and warehoused and sent through trucks that likely have temps over 130 degrees although bottled bacteria likely handled similarly and from experience know they can cycle a tank quickly. Perhaps the bacteria can handle higher temps then shipping and warehousing would exposed them to. Plus are those just bottled bacteria or actual ocean bacteria which would be more diversified :thinking-face:
 
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Local sand from pristine waters would be my choice being one is hoping to retrieve more than just bottled bacteria which appears to be AF approach but not sure about the other so called live sand options that are packaged and warehoused and sent through trucks that likely have temps over 130 degrees although bottled bacteria likely handled similarly and from experience know they can cycle a tank quickly. Perhaps the bacteria can handle higher temps then shipping and warehousing would exposed them to. Plus are those just bottled bacteria or actual ocean bacteria which would be more diversified :thinking-face:
Agree 100%...Bangkok isnt close enough to the ocean to carry back several kilograms of sand though but a handful or two would be more than enough mixed into the other sand
 

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Agree 100%...Bangkok isnt close enough to the ocean to carry back several kilograms of sand though but a handful or two would be more than enough mixed into the other sand
I'm considering sand from Tampa Bay added through a fluidized sand bed filter to seed the tank thereby allowing me to use dry rock and preferred sand or crush coral as desired. Sand will contain considerably more life than rocks as far as bacteria and that which would survive being in a filter therefore less needed. This might be a solution for you if accessing enough to fill a tank not an option. Likely takes considerably longer to seed the tank but it's a better start than than dry sand or that packaged.

However, if you already have ocean live rock, this might be a moot point unless wanting to periodically seed the tank with fresh ocean bacteria although no clue how useful that might be since tank bacteria likely to reproduce and those strains best suited for display life likely what survives. Counter point being that which doesn't might be assisted by adding new recruits. This is way more in the weeds then I'd like to dissect but is a consideration I've pondered and might execute as long as negative affects aren't seen and attributed to replacing fresh sand occasionally.
 
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I'm considering sand from Tampa Bay added through a fluidized sand bed filter to seed the tank thereby allowing me to use dry rock and preferred sand or crush coral as desired. Sand will contain considerably more life than rocks as far as bacteria and that which would survive being in a filter therefore less needed. This might be a solution for you if accessing enough to fill a tank not an option. Likely takes considerably longer to seed the tank but it's a better start than than dry sand or that packaged.

However, if you already have ocean live rock, this might be a moot point unless wanting to periodically seed the tank with fresh ocean bacteria although no clue how useful that might be since tank bacteria likely to reproduce and those strains best suited for display life likely what survives. Counter point being that which doesn't might be assisted by adding new recruits. This is way more in the weeds then I'd like to dissect but is a consideration I've pondered and might execute as long as negative affects aren't seen and attributed to replacing fresh sand occasionally.
I plan to experiment at first by adding small doses of Zeovit Zeofood in order to build biofilm to colonize the tank surfaces not already covered in bacteria such as the sand bed and tank surfaces. By doing that the goal (and experiment) is to inhibit opportunities for unwanted algal species to take root quickly. Im not starting it completely oligotrophic but adding nutrients and phytoplankton fkr the bacteria to feed on. The rocks no doubt had some bacterioplankton on them which are now multiplying in the water column already as well, just like corals add. However, unlike aquacultured corals, those rocks have many bacterial strains that wouldnt normally be found in aquaculture tanks (unless the shop is adding natural rock or wild corals to the tank).

@taricha can I get your opinion on adding the Zeovit Zeofood for this purpose? Id like to hear your opinion as well.
 

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The rocks no doubt had some bacterioplankton on them which are now multiplying in the water column already as well, just like corals add. However, unlike aquacultured corals, those rocks have many bacterial strains that wouldnt normally be found in aquaculture tanks (unless the shop is adding natural rock or wild corals to the tank).
This is what I meant by accessing ocean sourced and why I'm considering replacing sand from ocean source periodically as I don't know if all beneficial strains survive captivity.

As for coral farms, guessing those established before the rock bans might have OG live rock but again my contention being I'm not confident all strains of life that are of benefit might survive long-term. Absent knowledge to confirm or contradict it seems easier to just replace sand occasionally and repopulated the biomass of life assuming there's no negative affects from it. Can't think of any other than suddenly adding a toxin which is something currently being experienced in the Florida Keys affecting fish such as Sawfish and I suspect due to humans spraying chemicals or such being released which now gives me pause to adding anything from our waters. Never ending worry when dealing with nature and what we do to it.
 
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This is what I meant by accessing ocean sourced and why I'm considering replacing sand from ocean source periodically as I don't know if all beneficial strains survive captivity.

As for coral farms, guessing those established before the rock bans might have OG live rock but again my contention being I'm not confident all strains of life that are of benefit might survive long-term. Absent knowledge to confirm or contradict it seems easier to just replace sand occasionally and repopulated the biomass of life assuming there's no negative affects from it. Can't think of any other than suddenly adding a toxin which is something currently being experienced in the Florida Keys affecting fish such as Sawfish and I suspect due to humans spraying chemicals or such being released which now gives me pause to adding anything from our waters. Never ending worry when dealing with nature and what we do to it.
Youre completely right that not all bacteria survive, partially because of competition between different strains. Id definitely believe replenishment from time to time would reintroduce strains whose populations are highly depleted or have completely been outcompeted.
 
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Hey, big thanks to @madreefer11 for letting me have the AF biosand that hes had in the supplied bacteria for 2 weeks now! That mixed with the 100% dry sand I added earlier will definitely help! He also plans to buy some of that natural live ocean rock here.
 

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I would not hesitate to grab a handful from a nice beach or underwater location near growing corals, especially since TBS isn't willing to ship.

Actually, I think it would be safer for the ecosystem to grab local and prevent outside introductions to where you are at.

No judgement, just thinking out loud. :cool:
It's not that we aren't willing to ship to Bangkok, it's a matter of permitting.
 

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It's not that we aren't willing to ship to Bangkok, it's a matter of permitting.
I’m not assigning blame to anyone in the supply chain. We all have to conform to the rules or suffer consequences which for businesses are not worth the cost of doing business.

The permission game is despicable in my opinion and I don’t blame anyone for not playing in that environment. It’s designed to punish people who try to engage legally because they really don’t want to allow us to have coral and fish that other people claim excessive rights to.
 

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