Vinegar and Kalk

[jduong916]

I'm pretty much maxed out on kalk and want to increase strength. I see that 45ml of vinegar per gallon of RODI will increase the amount of kalk I can add to the the solution by 150%. Isn't this an absurd amount of vinegar to be dosing to your tank? I have a 60 gallon drum (I can only pull 50 gallons because I have the tube pulling above the sediment), I have to fill this drum every 22 days, which means I'd be dosing 103 ml of vinegar a day to a 350 gallon system. I've looked at the vinegar dosing charts and even at the high end, after 16 weeks, the recommended dosage is only 82 ml per day. It just seems like adding vinegar to kalk isn't viable at all when your'e maxed out on how much kalk you can add to the system through evaporation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That’s about the dose of vinegar I dosed on a 250-300 total gallon system, but combining them does tie them together in ways you may not want, and I never combined them in that fashion.

 

[Garf]

I'm pretty much maxed out on kalk and want to increase strength. I see that 45ml of vinegar per gallon of RODI will increase the amount of kalk I can add to the the solution by 150%. Isn't this an absurd amount of vinegar to be dosing to your tank? I have a 60 gallon drum (I can only pull 50 gallons because I have the tube pulling above the sediment), I have to fill this drum every 22 days, which means I'd be dosing 103 ml of vinegar a day to a 350 gallon system. I've looked at the vinegar dosing charts and even at the high end, after 16 weeks, the recommended dosage is only 82 ml per day. It just seems like adding vinegar to kalk isn't viable at all when your'e maxed out on how much kalk you can add to the system through evaporation.

I'm at 90 mls vinegar per gallon of kalk in a 60 gallon tank (over 200% i think). I dose 1300 mls of this per day, ie 30 mls vinegar/day (ish), if that helps.

 

[jduong916]

That’s about the dose of vinegar I dosed on a 250-300 total gallon system, but combining them does tie them together in ways you may not want, and I never combined them in that fashion.

What are some of the issues with combining vinegar and kalk?

 

[jduong916]

I'm at 90 mls vinegar per gallon of kalk in a 60 gallon tank (over 200% i think). I dose 1300 mls of this per day, ie 30 mls vinegar/day (ish), if that helps.

Wow, that's a lot of vinegar. I tried carbon dosing way back in the day and it didn't end well for me. I've been very hesitant to try carbon dosing again, especially at these high levels. I wouldn't mind dosing at lower levels, just to test, but this wont help my kalk strength very much.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What are some of the issues with combining vinegar and kalk?

It makes it harder to independently adjust vinegar and alk/calcium dosing levels, and limits control over vinegar dosing times (for example, one may want to dose vinegar during the day when pH and O2 are already highest, and kalkwasser at night, when pH is lowest).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wow, that's a lot of vinegar. I tried carbon dosing way back in the day and it didn't end well for me. I've been very hesitant to try carbon dosing again, especially at these high levels. I wouldn't mind dosing at lower levels, just to test, but this wont help my kalk strength very much.

I'd personally pick a DIY two part using sodium hydroxide for alk before I combined vinegar and kalkwasser.

 

[Miami Reef]

Part 1: 283g Sodium hydroxide
Part 2: 500g Calcium chloride
Part 3 (highly recommended): 182g Tropic Marin Balling Part C


Mix each part in a separate gallon with RO/DI, dose equal amounts of each daily to maintain alkalinity. It is very concentrated, so you won’t need to worry about evaporation. It has the same boost of pH as kalkwasser per unit of alkalinity dosed.

 

[jduong916]

Part 1: 283g Sodium hydroxide
Part 2: 500g Calcium chloride
Part 3 (highly recommended): 182g Tropic Marin Balling Part C


Mix each part in a separate gallon with RO/DI, dose equal amounts of each daily to maintain alkalinity. It is very concentrated, so you won’t need to worry about evaporation. It has the same boost of pH as kalkwasser per unit of alkalinity dosed.

I’m just too lazy to break out the calcium reactor. I was just trying prolong this by increasing my kalk potency. Guess I’m at the point where I need to bite the bullet and get this thing dialed in again.

 

[jduong916]

I'd personally pick a DIY two part using sodium hydroxide for alk before I combined vinegar and kalkwasser.

I have a calcium reactor. I was just trying to prolong setting it up again by increasing the kalk potency. I guess it’s time.

 

[davidwillis]

Part 1: 283g Sodium hydroxide
Part 2: 500g Calcium chloride
Part 3 (highly recommended): 182g Tropic Marin Balling Part C


Mix each part in a separate gallon with RO/DI, dose equal amounts of each daily to maintain alkalinity. It is very concentrated, so you won’t need to worry about evaporation. It has the same boost of pH as kalkwasser per unit of alkalinity dosed.

Do you know what this is in cups and scoops? Or do you weight it out each time?

I am currently using the hybrid balling method from BRS, but want to switch to this for the higher ph. But have a few questions.

1- Will the concentration be the same, for example if I dose 60ml daily of the hybrid balling solution, will I dose the same with the high ph version to maintain the same level of alk/ca? I am guessing it is the same, since the calcium addition is very close to the samve (500g vs 514g).
2- Will I add the same level of k+ to the calcium, and A- to the alk?
3- Is 4 scoops of balling part C equal to 182g? The dosing for the BRS hyrbrid method says to dose twice the part C as the the other two, so I am thinking 182g is more like 8 scoops, since you are dosing equal amounts of all three?

Calcium Liquid Solution
1. Fill a 1-gallon container 4/5 full of RO/DI or distilled water.
2. Add 2.5 cups (514 grams) of BRS Calcium Chloride - mix well.
3. Add Tropic Marin Pro Coral Trace K+ as follows (80ml low demand, 160ml medium demand,330ml high demand system).
4. Fill to one gallon of solution with RO/DI or distilled water - mix well.

Soda Ash Liquid Alkalinity1. Fill a
1-gallon container 4/5 full of RO/DI or distilled water.
2. Add 2 1/3 cups (381 grams) of BRS Soda Ash (sodium carbonate) - mix well.
3. Add Tropic Marin Pro Coral Trace A- as follows (80ml low demand, 160ml medium demand,330ml high demand system).
4. Fill to one gallon of solution with RO/DI or distilled water - mix well.

Balling Method Part C (Tropic Marin)
1. Fill a 1-gallon container 1/2 full of RO/DI or distilled water.
2. Add 4 scoops of Balling Part C to 1-gallon jug
3. Fill to one gallon of solution with RO/DI or distilled water - mix well

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do you know what this is in cups and scoops? Or do you weight it out each time?

I am currently using the hybrid balling method from BRS, but want to switch to this for the higher ph. But have a few questions.

1- Will the concentration be the same, for example if I dose 60ml daily of the hybrid balling solution, will I dose the same with the high ph version to maintain the same level of alk/ca? I am guessing it is the same, since the calcium addition is very close to the samve (500g vs 514g).
2- Will I add the same level of k+ to the calcium, and A- to the alk?
3- Is 4 scoops of balling part C equal to 182g? The dosing for the BRS hyrbrid method says to dose twice the part C as the the other two, so I am thinking 182g is more like 8 scoops, since you are dosing equal amounts of all three?

The very high pH (hydroxide) recipes are identical in alk and calcium potency to my DIY #1 (BRS uses that for their soda ash product), but your tank demand may change if the pH rises.

No need to change the trace element dosing, if you want to use it.


I don't know how many grams of the TM product are in their scoop.

 

[davidwillis]

The very high pH (hydroxide) recipes are identical in alk and calcium potency to my DIY #1 (BRS uses that for their soda ash product), but your tank demand may change if the pH rises.

No need to change the trace element dosing, if you want to use it.


I don't know how many grams of the TM product are in their scoop.

Thanks Randy!

 

[jduong916]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I have a side question a little off topic. I haven't found any calculators online for using dry kalk. If I use a calculator for saturated limewater and the results say add 1 gallons to raise my alk to a certain dkh, can I assume that this is 2 teaspoon of dry kalk? I'm not adding a huge amount of dry kalk, I just do this if I forget to reload my kalk bin for a day. I do see an immediate PH bump when I do this.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I have a side question a little off topic. I haven't found any calculators online for using dry kalk. If I use a calculator for saturated limewater and the results say add 1 gallons to raise my alk to a certain dkh, can I assume that this is 2 teaspoon of dry kalk? I'm not adding a huge amount of dry kalk, I just do this if I forget to reload my kalk bin for a day. I do see an immediate PH bump when I do this.

Yes, that calculation will work out. 2 level teaspoons.

 

[jduong916]

Yes, that calculation will work out. 2 level teaspoons.

Thank you sir!

 

[davidwillis]

If I were to change from soda ash to sodium hydroxide, do I need to clean out the container and lines, or can I just add it once the container is empty?

 

[Miami Reef]

If I were to change from soda ash to sodium hydroxide, do I need to clean out the container and lines, or can I just add it once the container is empty?

You can add it once the container is empty. There’s no reaction between soda ash and sodium hydroxide.

When CO2 enters the container of sodium hydroxide, it turns some of the hydroxide into carbonate (soda ash). Same alk potency, but less pH boost.

 

[Garf]

Personally, I’d give them a quick clean anyway.

 

[davidwillis]

The very high pH (hydroxide) recipes are identical in alk and calcium potency to my DIY #1 (BRS uses that for their soda ash product), but your tank demand may change if the pH rises.

No need to change the trace element dosing, if you want to use it.


I don't know how many grams of the TM product are in their scoop.

I figured out the scoop size. 22.75g, so 182g = 8 scoops. BRS recommends 4 scoops per gallon, but doses twice as much. Is there a risk of precipitation at 8 scoops per gallon? In a BRS video they say you have to do half the amount for it to all dissolve.
Also BRS uses 381g of soda ash which from what you said is the same amount of alk as 283g of sodium hydroxide.

I should be getting my sodium hydroxide tomorrow, so I will start mixing it up.