Very Odd Copperband Issue

benaharoni02

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Hello, didnt plan this to be my first post but....

I would like to start out with some info on the other creatures/conditions so we can narrow down possibilities.
All my corals and other fish are fine and haven't skipped a beat this whole time so this isn't parameter related. Likely a disease, neurological issue, or combination. Im not a fish doctor. There are no fish that bother him. He is one of the largest fish. Not the heaviest but the largest surface area-wise. I have 4 cardinals, 3 clownfish ( yes they get along :) ), melanurus wrasse, and a lawnmower blenny. Also would like to state none of the other fish have any ich or any other signs of illness. They are all too fat for their own good.
I have a 120 that is well-established and has been up for 15 years-ish.

Here's the run down:
I recently got a CBB from the LFS that was eating mysis in the store after I asked for them to feed him. I was told he was picking the couple of days he was held there. So I took the plunge of course! Need this aiptasia gone. I did not quarantine I just put him right in the tank. Didn't want to have to catch him again and stress him more being a CBB. This CBB has now been with me for a week. Over that period of time, he has been a model character. Eating day 1 mysis, by day 2 he was eating my "reef chum." Which includes a bunch of various meats, shrimp clam mussels spirulina powder etc. A lot. My only complaint is some lympho/ich looking spot on him. Which i assumed would pass as it usually does when I get new fish. He was acting completely fine, searching for food on the rocks, doing the usual copperband behavior for the whole week until today. This morning i walked in and everything seemed fine. I walked out of the room and a little while after my dad calls me to tell me the fish is swimming upside down. I thought maybe it was just looking for food in the rocks in an odd position. But the CBB was in the open water column upside down. Drifting and almost getting caught in my Nero. I shut it off just in time. He then landed on his side and occasionally moved into different areas, then laid back down. Breathing heavy, the whole lot. Dude looked like that was his final moments. He somehow started looking better, he was able to right himself and swim semi-normally. He would lay back down occasionally, then hover in an area. After hovering for about 3 hours in the same spot, he came back out into the water column and he ate!?!?!? A lot, he ate at least 10-15 mysis pieces in front of me after all that! I didn't expect that at all! Now as I type this he is acting semi-normal. Not really. He seems extremely skittish now. He ate but is not searching the rocks like he should.
He was really outgoing before, even knowing that my hand means food within like 2-3 days of getting him, was close to getting him to hand feed I think, he wasnt afraid of me during feeding at all really. Either way, he was healthy and suddenly hes not. Hes currently hiding in the back with a coral-banded shrimp... yay. Gonna upload some video of him, trying to get a good video of the weird spot he has. I think this might be the source of the issue. But im not sure as I've had fish with similar-looking fins that healed up perfectly. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!
The spot on his body that I believe is lympho or ich has gotten a bit worse over the time ive had him. There are a couple other spots but those have improved. There was some very minor tears to the fins when i got him as well that have disappeared. Others have shown up but nothing concerning to me. But overall the fish has been great till today. Especially for a copperband. Even ate after he went through this weird traumatic event. Gonna try feeding again later and will update the post. Any advice is welcome.

image3.jpeg image2.jpeg image1.jpeg image0.jpeg
 

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Jay Hemdal

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Hello, didnt plan this to be my first post but....

I would like to start out with some info on the other creatures/conditions so we can narrow down possibilities.
All my corals and other fish are fine and haven't skipped a beat this whole time so this isn't parameter related. Likely a disease, neurological issue, or combination. Im not a fish doctor. There are no fish that bother him. He is one of the largest fish. Not the heaviest but the largest surface area-wise. I have 4 cardinals, 3 clownfish ( yes they get along :) ), melanurus wrasse, and a lawnmower blenny. Also would like to state none of the other fish have any ich or any other signs of illness. They are all too fat for their own good.
I have a 120 that is well-established and has been up for 15 years-ish.

Here's the run down:
I recently got a CBB from the LFS that was eating mysis in the store after I asked for them to feed him. I was told he was picking the couple of days he was held there. So I took the plunge of course! Need this aiptasia gone. I did not quarantine I just put him right in the tank. Didn't want to have to catch him again and stress him more being a CBB. This CBB has now been with me for a week. Over that period of time, he has been a model character. Eating day 1 mysis, by day 2 he was eating my "reef chum." Which includes a bunch of various meats, shrimp clam mussels spirulina powder etc. A lot. My only complaint is some lympho/ich looking spot on him. Which i assumed would pass as it usually does when I get new fish. He was acting completely fine, searching for food on the rocks, doing the usual copperband behavior for the whole week until today. This morning i walked in and everything seemed fine. I walked out of the room and a little while after my dad calls me to tell me the fish is swimming upside down. I thought maybe it was just looking for food in the rocks in an odd position. But the CBB was in the open water column upside down. Drifting and almost getting caught in my Nero. I shut it off just in time. He then landed on his side and occasionally moved into different areas, then laid back down. Breathing heavy, the whole lot. Dude looked like that was his final moments. He somehow started looking better, he was able to right himself and swim semi-normally. He would lay back down occasionally, then hover in an area. After hovering for about 3 hours in the same spot, he came back out into the water column and he ate!?!?!? A lot, he ate at least 10-15 mysis pieces in front of me after all that! I didn't expect that at all! Now as I type this he is acting semi-normal. Not really. He seems extremely skittish now. He ate but is not searching the rocks like he should.
He was really outgoing before, even knowing that my hand means food within like 2-3 days of getting him, was close to getting him to hand feed I think, he wasnt afraid of me during feeding at all really. Either way, he was healthy and suddenly hes not. Hes currently hiding in the back with a coral-banded shrimp... yay. Gonna upload some video of him, trying to get a good video of the weird spot he has. I think this might be the source of the issue. But im not sure as I've had fish with similar-looking fins that healed up perfectly. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!
The spot on his body that I believe is lympho or ich has gotten a bit worse over the time ive had him. There are a couple other spots but those have improved. There was some very minor tears to the fins when i got him as well that have disappeared. Others have shown up but nothing concerning to me. But overall the fish has been great till today. Especially for a copperband. Even ate after he went through this weird traumatic event. Gonna try feeding again later and will update the post. Any advice is welcome.

image3.jpeg image2.jpeg image1.jpeg image0.jpeg

That spot is too large to be ich or Lymphocystis. It looks like a bruise.

Generally, when fish become moribund (not able to swim, getting stuck to a filter, etc.) that is it, they do not recover - ever. I've only had a couple of cases here where a fish was found moribund and then started eating again - both seemed to be related to shock from a physical injury.

Was this bruise on the fish BEFORE it went downhill? If so, we can rule that out.

Jay
 
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benaharoni02

benaharoni02

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That spot is too large to be ich or Lymphocystis. It looks like a bruise.

Generally, when fish become moribund (not able to swim, getting stuck to a filter, etc.) that is it, they do not recover - ever. I've only had a couple of cases here where a fish was found moribund and then started eating again - both seemed to be related to shock from a physical injury.

Was this bruise on the fish BEFORE it went downhill? If so, we can rule that out.

Jay
Hi jay

yes this spot was on him before this happened. I noticed it around day 2. It started at a weird white spot that stuck out a little bit. A little large for ich. Imo, im not a professional tho. And then it became that odd discoloration around it and the little white spot isn't there anymore from what I can tell.

and also that is why im so shocked. I was under the impression when that happens to a fish they are done for. But somehow hes still here. Wish i got a vid of it but I was thinking other things at the time!
 

Jay Hemdal

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Hi jay

yes this spot was on him before this happened. I noticed it around day 2. It started at a weird white spot that stuck out a little bit. A little large for ich. Imo, im not a professional tho. And then it became that odd discoloration around it and the little white spot isn't there anymore from what I can tell.

and also that is why im so shocked. I was under the impression when that happens to a fish they are done for. But somehow hes still here. Wish i got a vid of it but I was thinking other things at the time!

This species is prone to Uronema, and that is most often misidentified as a "bruise", but in this case, the fish has had it too long for it to be uronema, that would have already proved fatal.

Not sure what happened here - sorry!

Jay
 

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My suspect it slight injury or bacterial infection but cant see clearly until i get to my laptop but i'm unclear as it appears Jay also has to how long has this developed before you clearly noticed it more prominently. Loss of appetite is never good.
Is fish breathing labored or normal?
 
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benaharoni02

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My suspect it slight injury or bacterial infection but cant see clearly until i get to my laptop but i'm unclear as it appears Jay also has to how long has this developed before you clearly noticed it more prominently. Loss of appetite is never good.
Is fish breathing labored or normal?
Will take better pics if I get him to come out of the cave in a bit when I try to feed him again. going to do that in about 30 min. He did eat miraculously after he had all that happen but isnt searching for stuff actively right now.

The spot was there day 2 ish for sure and has progressed into this weird discoloration. Today is 1 week. The center of it had a little white mass. A little larger than ich, but not as big as a lympho mass from the images ive seen. That is gone i think now. Dont know for sure what it was. Also dont think its Uronema cause from the pics i saw online that is red colored and his spot is more grayish. Just the discoloration im pretty sure is present but will confirm that as well when/if i get a good look at him. I was thinking maybe he had a small infection prior to me getting him from that ich thingy or whatever it was. Maybe I should try to treat it? I dont know what i would need. it would be extremely difficult to get him out since he is back to normal-ish. Moves around fine. But is just hanging out in the back with no interest in searching the rocks for food to pick.

The spot is my major suspect. Not sure what else would have caused all this.
 

vetteguy53081

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Will take better pics if I get him to come out of the cave in a bit when I try to feed him again. going to do that in about 30 min. He did eat miraculously after he had all that happen but isnt searching for stuff actively right now.

The spot was there day 2 ish for sure and has progressed into this weird discoloration. Today is 1 week. The center of it had a little white mass. A little larger than ich, but not as big as a lympho mass from the images ive seen. That is gone i think now. Dont know for sure what it was. Also dont think its Uronema cause from the pics i saw online that is red colored and his spot is more grayish. Just the discoloration im pretty sure is present but will confirm that as well when/if i get a good look at him. I was thinking maybe he had a small infection prior to me getting him from that ich thingy or whatever it was. Maybe I should try to treat it? I dont know what i would need. it would be extremely difficult to get him out since he is back to normal-ish. Moves around fine. But is just hanging out in the back with no interest in searching the rocks for food to pick.

The spot is my major suspect. Not sure what else would have caused all this.
If its being as skittish as you describe, lower white intensity a little and increase oxygen with air stone and assure its eating.
What foods are you feeding?
 
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benaharoni02

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If its being as skittish as you describe, lower white intensity a little and increase oxygen with air stone and assure its eating.
What foods are you feeding?
Will do, I can turn off whites entirely as well and just have blues. I either feed straight mysis or a reef chum i made that has krill, shrimp, mussels, clams, salmon, blood worms, spirulina powder and garlic extract. I might be missing one ingredient but that's basically all of them. Maybe skittish was the wrong word, he is more anxious it seems. Like he is hiding from something. But there is nothing bothering him. Ive been watching since this morning. getting up like every 10 minutes! Also going to feed right now and see how it goes, will be back in a second with an update on that, possibly better photos too!
 
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Good news! When I walked in to feed he was out and about. So I immediately went to feed him. He ate, and I started taking this video. The second video is me trying to show the fin. It seems like it affects both sides of the fin. He is acting pretty normal rn as I type. This fish is confusing me lol! At least he is eating tho. I did mysis only cause he seems to prefer that over my reef chum concoction, I've noticed. Gonna see if the quality of the videos improves if i upload from phone
 

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Turned those lights off after feeding. He stayed out for a little after the feeding acting pretty normal, picking and searching, then went back to the cave in the back to hover. Very odd. I am extremely happy though he is doing this good after this morning's events! Hoping he continues to improve. Will update you all tomorrow on his well-being unless something happens. I will be here to discuss though if anyone has ideas! Also, the phone videos were too large to upload, kept crashing my Chrome for some reason on the 2 min video. Ill try my mac instead and edit this post to have them if i get it to work.
 
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He made the night, seems like he is looking for food from me, but not searching the rocks still. Will update once I try to feed him again. The spot has grown slightly in size and another area looks discolored now. Thinking about treatment but still not sure what is wrong. Cant reupload the higher quality video for some reason. It tells me something went wrong. Also I believe this is a bacterial infection at this point. Really want him to survive. Any treatment idea?
 
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Still eats. Didnt seem to interested in searching/picking rocks though. Isnt acting right still
 

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Good news! When I walked in to feed he was out and about. So I immediately went to feed him. He ate, and I started taking this video. The second video is me trying to show the fin. It seems like it affects both sides of the fin. He is acting pretty normal rn as I type. This fish is confusing me lol! At least he is eating tho. I did mysis only cause he seems to prefer that over my reef chum concoction, I've noticed. Gonna see if the quality of the videos improves if i upload from phone

In the videos, the CBB is eating pretty well, but it is thin. The spots on the tail look like Lymphocystis to me.

Jay
 

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He made the night, seems like he is looking for food from me, but not searching the rocks still. Will update once I try to feed him again. The spot has grown slightly in size and another area looks discolored now. Thinking about treatment but still not sure what is wrong. Cant reupload the higher quality video for some reason. It tells me something went wrong. Also I believe this is a bacterial infection at this point. Really want him to survive. Any treatment idea?

If it is bacterial, it seems to be internal. That can be tricky to treat in fish like this. Oral medications are tough to do with CBB. Here is an article I wrote about med foods:


Marine fish do drink water, so adding antibiotics to the tank water can help, but of course, you cannot do that in your display tank.

Jay
 
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benaharoni02

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If it is bacterial, it seems to be internal. That can be tricky to treat in fish like this. Oral medications are tough to do with CBB. Here is an article I wrote about med foods:


Marine fish do drink water, so adding antibiotics to the tank water can help, but of course, you cannot do that in your display tank.

Jay
Any suggestions for an antibiotic to use? I don't have any on hand but could get Erythromycin,
and Cipro
pretty easily. Others may be harder. Not sure if this would be gram-positive or negative either.
 
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Update, the ridge of his fin is swollen slightly it looks like, can't find that initial white spot where the discoloration started, the discoloration has spread a bit more, fish barely ate this morning from mixed food I make, gonna try mysis again in a little. Gonna get a video of the fin. Very much considering pulling him later when I have some assistance. He hangs out in the front bottom right corner, he is able to orientate himself properly but does not move very far. If the condition worsens or improves ill update again. Will get those videos now.

Edit: Comparing yesterday's to today's videos, the spot has gotten much darker and is now red in some spots.
 
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Oh - very sorry to see that. The rapid breathing is new, as is the redness increasing. I'm now backtracking as those are both clear symptoms of Uronema.....ugh!

Jay
 
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Oh - very sorry to see that. The rapid breathing is new, as is the redness increasing. I'm now backtracking as those are both clear symptoms of Uronema.....ugh!

Jay
Okay, will definitely pull him out then, what is formalin, i read it was methanol and formaldehyde but that doesnt seem right to me.
 

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