Upgrade LED Lighting

[Nonya]

When they are 10 for a dollar... .

So what's your minimum cost point before they're no longer "cheap"? Maybe they should just charge more?

For mission critical colors I've stuck with Stevesled.

What's so mission critical about freshwater.

If I wanted to reflow a board Mouser or Digikey.

I'd wager the majority of reefers would never reflow. That takes DIY to a level that hobbyists would rather not bother with, as buying a new emitter pre-mounted on a star is very cheap.

And right or wrong avoid anything that looks like a sunny side up egg.
Just an odds thing.

Please explain. Seems arbitrary. I've used them and SMD both in the past. Even my expensive Radions and AIs have burned out emitters over time.

See the "egg" is just a package. Any brand/quality led die can be put inside it.

Can the same can be said about any brand/quality of SMD chip be put on a star?

Or actual nm, efficacy, ect.

Hmm. Interesting. What have you found as a result of your research/testing, etc.?

 

[oreo54]

So what's your minimum cost point before they're no longer "cheap"? Maybe they should just charge more?

What's so mission critical about freshwater.

I'd wager the majority of reefers would never reflow. That takes DIY to a level that hobbyists would rather not bother with, as buying a new emitter pre-mounted on a star is very cheap.

Please explain. Seems arbitrary. I've used them and SMD both in the past. Even my expensive Radions and AIs have burned out emitters over time.

Can the same can be said about any brand/quality of SMD chip be put on a star?

Hmm. Interesting. What have you found as a result of your research/testing, etc.?

China at one time released "cyan" diodes that were actually blue/yellow dual dies to "look" like cyan but miss the nm peak of cyan.

High CRI whites which benefit BOTH fw and SW to make them more err "full spectrum"..
In sw the stability and output of royal blue ect.

I found using luxtools gives me a much better handle on what I'm buying.
The exact bin isn't always the same but its a good ballpark. nm shift and/or electrical characteristics aren't that critical in DIY.... for some...

Oh and also found that in comparing Limileds calcs and Raycal that in general they correlate well.

 

[Nonya]

errrr...Are you basing your entire evaluation of foreign LEDs on a single anecdote of a cyan LED?

My white, reds, greens are actually turned off, except when I turn whites up a little when I'm searching for something I dropped into the tank. Red is great for growing terrestrial plants (and algae in SW). There's already enough green fluorescence without the need for more green. I'm thinking about replacing them all with a selection of blues/violets (500-400nm) and maybe UVA to fill in the "gaps" to provide additional fluorescence. They're also in the best range to provide fluorescence, photosynthetic response, and err IMO a more natural environment for corals. This is just my preference. I remember when people swore that 5500-6500K was the absolute best light.

 

[AKReefing]

The exact bin isn't always the same but its a good ballpark. nm shift and/or electrical characteristics aren't that critical in DIY.... for some...

At a minimum, forward voltage and min/max current are necessary for DIY.

 

[Minifoot77]

Thread '3 viparspectra 165w controlled by hydros $350' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/3-viparspectra-165w-controlled-by-hydros-350.1027737/

I know it's not a radion but they grow sps

 

[oreo54]

At a minimum, forward voltage and min/max current are necessary for DIY.

I was referring to nm shifts of like 5 or less and elect. characteristics like L/w or mA/w

https://otmm.lumileds.com/adaptivemedia/5b1e8810c7cb4c3986b5f60692f31321a5e46347

Data sheets are your friend.

So that is the one set of parameters. Each bin should fall within the above but each bin will have slightly different current at x voltage or slightly different voltage at x current.
However you care to describe led.

Actual "field testing" is really the only way to know what you really bought.

 

[oreo54]

errrr...Are you basing your entire evaluation of foreign LEDs on a single anecdote of a cyan LED?

My white, reds, greens are actually turned off, except when I turn whites up a little when I'm searching for something I dropped into the tank. Red is great for growing terrestrial plants (and algae in SW). There's already enough green fluorescence without the need for more green. I'm thinking about replacing them all with a selection of blues/violets (500-400nm) and maybe UVA to fill in the "gaps" to provide additional fluorescence. They're also in the best range to provide fluorescence, photosynthetic response, and err IMO a more natural environment for corals. This is just my preference. I remember when people swore that 5500-6500K was the absolute best light.

Whites are pointless.. just use the RGB trick.
As to basing on one thing err no.
2) All my low K 3W cheap emitters in my very first diy died in under a year.
higher k whites were just but ugly, probably <70CRI.
Yes, I believe the quality of white leds IS important in sw tanks. On looks alone.

Other stories
2) One diy found the attachment of eggs to stars was soo poor that those leds fried rapidly. Switched to just sticking the egg to the al and skipping str boards..
3) How many of those browned out in a short period of time? Sometimes secondary lens sometimes primary.
4) Suspected someone sent "1w" class leds instead of 3w since they all burned out. In hindsight may have been my issue. These were 660nm reds btw.
AFAICT you can't really measure a 1w vs 3w. Would be interested in a practical test.
5) In a lot of white leds there were noticeable phosphor differences and in testing also a noticeable difference in efficiency.
Put the same low current through them and see how different they appear.
6) A lot of those diodes in black boxes have lower efficacy than mh or t5.
Older ones were lucky to hit like 50Lumens/watt.
Good thing they had those lenses.
Current quality leds are running 150L/watt,.
Can take 3 cheap ones to equal one "name brand" one as to output.

Yea lumens but to achieve that you need an efficient pump. And the most common pump is RB.
Little .5w ers are hitting 100L/watt. So again their pumps need to be more efficient.
Not a lot of gain in phosphor output afaict.
Hey they are all use-able. And since in diy you are the warranty.. no big deal if a few (or many) are of poor quality.

Then there is the "violet" thing. Still less efficent than blues (more heat/input) and shorter lifespan.
So even quality ones have err "issues"..

A more important consideration is what do the likes of Orphek put inside their eggs?

Awhile back a buyer of led lamps stated that many chips labelled like "bridgelux' were in fact a Chinese brand and not "bridgelux" or "edison' or whatever.

Then there are the bootlegs.

As to manufactured lights it would normally be silly to put in "the best" bins since in a run generally those occur in much smaller quantities on a single run or over different runs.
You use the best but most likely to be manufactured year after year.Pointless to use ultra-superior led from a lot only to not be able to get them (or enough of them) on the next run.

Actually.. in a sense diode quality is actually more important in fw than saltwater.Its more err visual (excluding flourescence for a bit which really all you need is royal blue of any brand).
Dull or off colored fish are more noticeable.
.


.

 

[X-37B]

If you want to go with a new fixure look at a 48" reefbreeder. I ran radions on my old 80 and needed 4. 1 reefbreeder would have been enough.
1 would work well on your system.
I wil be running 2 reefbreeder 50's on my new 59×30×21.7.

 

[Nonya]

Whites are pointless.. just use the RGB trick.

LOL, nobody uses RGB over a reef tank for corals.

As to basing on one thing err no.
2) All my low K 3W cheap emitters in my very first diy died in under a year.

My guess was either poor cooling or over-driving, the most common cause 99% of the time.

higher k whites were just but ugly, probably <70CRI.

err

Yes, I believe the quality of white leds IS important in sw tanks. On looks alone.

I wouldn't know. I don't build with them.

Other stories
2) One diy found the attachment of eggs to stars was soo poor that those leds fried rapidly. Switched to just sticking the egg to the al and skipping str boards..

By doing that you have to lift the leads off the aluminum to avoid shorts. Just press the egg down as you give the leads a quick tough with the soldering iron tip.

3) How many of those browned out in a short period of time? Sometimes secondary lens sometimes primary.

Properly cooled and if not over-driven it doesn't happen.

4) Suspected someone sent "1w" class leds instead of 3w since they all burned out. In hindsight may have been my issue. These were 660nm reds btw.

Wattage is determined by current times volts. I'm presuming those LEDs were limited to 350mA, as most of those allow 350mA max.

AFAICT you can't really measure a 1w vs 3w. Would be interested in a practical test.

With a constant current driver there's no need, right?

5) In a lot of white leds there were noticeable phosphor differences and in testing also a noticeable difference in efficiency.

Ok.

Put the same low current through them and see how different they appear.

I believe you.

6) A lot of those diodes in black boxes have lower efficacy than mh or t5.
Older ones were lucky to hit like 50Lumens/watt.
Good thing they had those lenses.
Current quality leds are running 150L/watt,.
Can take 3 cheap ones to equal one "name brand" one as to output.

I've never been a fan of BB. It's my experience that the majority of Chinese BB LEDs, including things like grow lights, claim to be up to triple the wattage they actually consume. I've verified with a Kill-a-Watt. This is where a PAR meter comes in handy.

Yea lumens but to achieve that you need an efficient pump. And the most common pump is RB.
Little .5w ers are hitting 100L/watt. So again their pumps need to be more efficient.
Not a lot of gain in phosphor output afaict.
Hey they are all use-able. And since in diy you are the warranty.. no big deal if a few (or many) are of poor quality.

Still, DIY is waaaaaaaaaay cheaper, while providing all the corals need, and all the user likes. DIY isn't for everyone, but it doesn't take much skill, especially for the people who like bragging rights for saving potentially $thousands over a larger tank. Didn't I recently see a newer fixture running almost $2,000 each? There are those who think paying top dollar guarantees the absolute best quality. It'll always be the case (status, bragging rights, hoping for the solution to their problems).

Then there is the "violet" thing. Still less efficent than blues (more heat/input) and shorter lifespan.
So even quality ones have err "issues"..

My proposed solution is to use more LEDs, drive lower to keep cool, provide excellent heat sinks. In fact, I typically use at least 50% more than I think I'll need in case they were incorrectly advertised or are knockoffs. I can always run them at much lower power (i.e., cooler) and turn them up a bit if necessary. All individual LEDs are disposable (i.e., cheaply and easily replaceable), which is the big advantage over MH and T-5.

A more important consideration is what do the likes of Orphek put inside their eggs?

Orphek? The same company who advertises CHLOROPHYLLS B and F for coral lighting? (https://orphek.com/correct-corals-spectral-needs/)
For the benefit of some readers, corals have chlorophyll a and c2 (among other pigments).

Awhile back a buyer of led lamps stated that many chips labelled like "bridgelux' were in fact a Chinese brand and not "bridgelux" or "edison' or whatever.

I believe it, so you can't trust that any LED is what it states. When I ordered some LEDs they came direct from China, so no doubt there. Others came from eBay, Amazon, etc., and I'm sure many were Chinese knockoffs, including some sold as Cree.

Then there are the bootlegs.

As to manufactured lights it would normally be silly to put in "the best" bins since in a run generally those occur in much smaller quantities on a single run or over different runs.

Mmmm, not sure what "best" means. Many builders don't specify exact wavelengths. They say blue, royal blue, etc., and show a spectral graph that could be closely duplicated fairly easily. IME, the commercially-made LEDs are fairly consistent between fixtures.

You use the best but most likely to be manufactured year after year.Pointless to use ultra-superior led from a lot only to not be able to get them (or enough of them) on the next run.

I don't know any reefers who are that picky. Solder it. Run it. It works.

Actually.. in a sense diode quality is actually more important in fw than saltwater.Its more err visual (excluding flourescence for a bit which really all you need is royal blue of any brand).
Dull or off colored fish are more noticeable.

Errrr. Kind of... and kind of not... Spectrum and intensity matter to photosynthesis for corals and plants. Spectrum matters for fluorescence, but throwing only royal blue in there only causes certain pigments to fluoresce. But you know that. You might as well say that 723nm is all you need to make flowers look great. Fluorescence results from the Stokes shift, but I'm sure you know that too. The more of the spectrum you cover, the more pigments fluoresce, which is important to SW people. The triggering wavelengths range from a high of 600nm down to around 325nm, with the majority being between ~325 and ~520. Most reefers wouldn't like the overall visual effect that comes with longer wavelengths, and many wouldn't like the exposure to more energetic UV energy.

 

[oreo54]

LOL, nobody uses RGB over a reef tank for corals.

My guess was either poor cooling or over-driving, the most common cause 99% of the time.

err

I wouldn't know. I don't build with them.

By doing that you have to lift the leads off the aluminum to avoid shorts. Just press the egg down as you give the leads a quick tough with the soldering iron tip.

Properly cooled and if not over-driven it doesn't happen.

Wattage is determined by current times volts. I'm presuming those LEDs were limited to 350mA, as most of those allow 350mA max.

With a constant current driver there's no need, right?

Ok.

I believe you.

I've never been a fan of BB. It's my experience that the majority of Chinese BB LEDs, including things like grow lights, claim to be up to triple the wattage they actually consume. I've verified with a Kill-a-Watt. This is where a PAR meter comes in handy.

Still, DIY is waaaaaaaaaay cheaper, while providing all the corals need, and all the user likes. DIY isn't for everyone, but it doesn't take much skill, especially for the people who like bragging rights for saving potentially $thousands over a larger tank. Didn't I recently see a newer fixture running almost $2,000 each? There are those who think paying top dollar guarantees the absolute best quality. It'll always be the case (status, bragging rights, hoping for the solution to their problems).

My proposed solution is to use more LEDs, drive lower to keep cool, provide excellent heat sinks. In fact, I typically use at least 50% more than I think I'll need in case they were incorrectly advertised or are knockoffs. I can always run them at much lower power (i.e., cooler) and turn them up a bit if necessary. All individual LEDs are disposable (i.e., cheaply and easily replaceable), which is the big advantage over MH and T-5.

Orphek? The same company who advertises CHLOROPHYLLS B and F for coral lighting? (https://orphek.com/correct-corals-spectral-needs/)
For the benefit of some readers, corals have chlorophyll a and c2 (among other pigments).

I believe it, so you can't trust that any LED is what it states. When I ordered some LEDs they came direct from China, so no doubt there. Others came from eBay, Amazon, etc., and I'm sure many were Chinese knockoffs, including some sold as Cree.

Mmmm, not sure what "best" means. Many builders don't specify exact wavelengths. They say blue, royal blue, etc., and show a spectral graph that could be closely duplicated fairly easily. IME, the commercially-made LEDs are fairly consistent between fixtures.

I don't know any reefers who are that picky. Solder it. Run it. It works.

Errrr. Kind of... and kind of not... Spectrum and intensity matter to photosynthesis for corals and plants. Spectrum matters for fluorescence, but throwing only royal blue in there only causes certain pigments to fluoresce. But you know that. You might as well say that 723nm is all you need to make flowers look great. Fluorescence results from the Stokes shift, but I'm sure you know that too. The more of the spectrum you cover, the more pigments fluoresce, which is important to SW people. The triggering wavelengths range from a high of 600nm down to around 325nm, with the majority being between ~325 and ~520. Most reefers wouldn't like the overall visual effect that comes with longer wavelengths, and many wouldn't like the exposure to more energetic UV energy.

Naaah wasn't over-driving FW caught on to that long before sw did. No 1A drivers for the most part.
700mA or less in general.
And the density was never that high so not so stressful. I mean 50 PAR at 24" was sort of the base . Not 250 and the density/amps needed to generate that.

Yes there are people who use RGB in sw look up lasse..
Also most t5's ( blue plus, actinic, ect.)and high k MH's are defacto RGB lights for the most part.
picture .. almost all 85% or greater RGB (or RGAmber) with a broad band blue phosphor..
Whiter ones are a bit more. Or 6500k tubes.

My personal opinion.. Whites in reef lighting are pretty much a mistake with quality of white available.
Warm whites if anything to add better (sharper) color rendering.
Blue plus yellow (typical high k white) just doesn't go well.
In all my napkin sw lights I designed none would use any whites above 8000k and really would go more lower than that. I'm being generous at 8000k. nor any white leds with less than 90CRI. But that is a personal opinion. no more, no less.

CREES are made in China, well some (or all now?).

Cree opens LED chip manufacturing facility in Huizhou

Cree Huizhou Solid State Lighting Co., Ltd., the company’s first LED chip manufacturing base in China, has opened just over a year after the project was announced.

www.ledsmagazine.com

So your CREE leds may just be unbinned, out of spec CREES, maybe small bins that aren't special or a chinese knockoff.
Differentiating takes time/equip few have and really, as you note, few really need.

Though in this day and age the whole thing is pretty messy.
Malaysia, China, Korea, ect..

Yea commercially made should be consistent.. but like I said that often means using errr "lesser" diodes since the manuf process cranks more out in that range. Assures consistency and availability over time.

OK I'll go rb and cool blue (ic blue, reg blue) combined will cover most of the florescent stimulation needed.
Green actually hits a few more pigments but is "eye bright" so can get distracting.

BB as to what they are the driver (usually 500-550mA) and a voltage meter across the channel at 100% will tell you the wattage. An amp meter in series will tell you if the driver output is correct.

They've been about 110W total for a decade at least. At the beginning DIY'ers were running 1000mA to their cheap or expensive leds.

 

[Nonya]

Naaah wasn't over-driving FW caught on to that long before sw did. No 1A drivers for the most part.
700mA or less in general.
And the density was never that high so not so stressful. I mean 50 PAR at 24" was sort of the base . Not 250 and the density/amps needed to generate that.

Yes there are people who use RGB in sw look up lasse..
Also most t5's ( blue plus, actinic, ect.)and high k MH's are defacto RGB lights for the most part.
picture .. almost all 85% or greater RGB (or RGAmber) with a broad band blue phosphor..
Whiter ones are a bit more. Or 6500k tubes.

My personal opinion.. Whites in reef lighting are pretty much a mistake with quality of white available.
Warm whites if anything to add better (sharper) color rendering.
Blue plus yellow (typical high k white) just doesn't go well.
In all my napkin sw lights I designed none would use any whites above 8000k and really would go more lower than that. I'm being generous at 8000k. nor any white leds with less than 90CRI. But that is a personal opinion. no more, no less.

CREES are made in China, well some (or all now?).

Cree opens LED chip manufacturing facility in Huizhou

Cree Huizhou Solid State Lighting Co., Ltd., the company’s first LED chip manufacturing base in China, has opened just over a year after the project was announced.

www.ledsmagazine.com

So your CREE leds may just be unbinned, out of spec CREES, maybe small bins that aren't special or a chinese knockoff.
Differentiating takes time/equip few have and really, as you note, few really need.

Though in this day and age the whole thing is pretty messy.
Malaysia, China, Korea, ect..

Yea commercially made should be consistent.. but like I said that often means using errr "lesser" diodes since the manuf process cranks more out in that range. Assures consistency and availability over time.

OK I'll go rb and cool blue (ic blue, reg blue) combined will cover most of the florescent stimulation needed.
Green actually hits a few more pigments but is "eye bright" so can get distracting.

BB as to what they are the driver (usually 500-550mA) and a voltage meter across the channel at 100% will tell you the wattage. An amp meter in series will tell you if the driver output is correct.

They've been about 110W total for a decade at least. At the beginning DIY'ers were running 1000mA to their cheap or expensive leds.

err, and don't forget err.

Just too much nonsense and half-sentences/thoughts to decipher.

err

 

[oreo54]

err, and don't forget err.

Just too much nonsense and half-sentences/thoughts to decipher.

err

Huh, bit sloppy but fairly straight forward to me.
I'd gladly clarify any of it for you.

Left handed , right brain, not very good with prose.

While everyone uses both sides of their brains in work (and in life), people who think of themselves as right-brained tend to be creative, emotional, and intuitive. They are more likely an imaginative and innovative thinker and are often drawn to fields where they can express themselves freely and help others.

 

[Nonya]

Huh, bit sloppy but fairly straight forward to me.
I'd gladly clarify any of it for you.

Left handed , right brain, not very good with prose.

err

 

[oreo54]

err

Your kind of a pickly person aren't you.
Err...we all have our flaws.

 

[Nonya]

Yes, picky.

err

 

[oreo54]

Yes, picky.

err

Lol yea that was a bit embarrassing.
Err ...prickly....

 

[Nonya]

Lol yea that was a bit embarrassing.
Err ...prickly....

Don't be embarrassed. Most people can't get beyond freshwater. Saltwater is just...err... too much for some.