TRYING TO UNDERSTAND N-DOC RESULTS AND RECOMMENDATIONS

[Dr. Jim]

Below are my N-DOC Results and Recommendations. From what I can see, my Total N and NO3 are too high. (I'm assuming the N is high because of the elevated NO3). The organic C is slightly elevated. (I've been dosing a very low level of Carbon about 4-5 times a week; I will stop for a while.) All of the ratios are elevated, and I assume this is because of the elevated NO3.

My QUESTIONS:
1. Am I correct in concluding that elevated NO3 is my only real concern and that is what I need to deal with?
2. NOTE: Today I tested NO3 with a Hanna HR checker and it was 15. I know that many SPS growers have no problem with NO3 levels much higher than this, (including myself, in the past). Should I even be concerned with a NO3 level of 15? Or, are the Triton methods and recommendations all designed to keep NO3 in the 2-5 range and anything above will trigger warnings? If so, I have to wonder how important that is because I have seen many beautiful SPS tanks running NO3 much higher.
3. One recommendation is to use BIOBASE but only if the organic Carbon is on the low side. (Mine isn't)
a) What is in BIOBASE and what does it do? Is it simply a N source but not NO3?
b) Why shouldn't it be used with normal or high organic Carbon? (Does it contain organic Carbon?)
4. For quite a long time I've been considering getting a Chaeto reactor and am wondering if it is really necessary. (Today, I put some biopellets in a reactor to see how things look after lowering the NO3 a little).

Comments: My SPS have been struggling a bit but I believe it is because I moved 6 months ago. I used all the same equipment with the move but lost an unusually high number of colonies and frags mostly soon after the move. (I've moved several times in my life but never had this problem, and this move was the easiest and shortest distance). Everything seems to be stabilizing now.
An ICP test at the same time as the N-DOC was fairly normal (with the exception of slightly low B and Mo and the usual low I, Fl, Fe and Mn)


N-DOC

ANALYSIS AND RECOMMENDATIONS

Data Help Dose Visual​

Measured parameters

	Organic-Group​	Analysis​	Setpoint​
TIC​	Total inorganic carbon​	27.30 mg/l​	27 mg/l​	▲
TOC​	Total organic carbon​	5.75 mg/l​	0 - 4 mg/l​	▲
TC​	Total carbon​	33.06 mg/l​	31 mg/l​	▲
TNb​	Total nitrogen​	7.88 mg/l​	0.4 - 1.3 mg/l​	▲

Organic-group

	Element​	Analysis​
	dKH​	7.32​		▲
	Alk​	2.61​		▲
	N/NO3 calculated​	34.83​		▲

Calculated nutrient ratio N-C-P

	PARAMETER​	Analysis​	Setpoint TRITON RATIO​
N​	NITROGENE​	7.88 mg/l​	0.4 - 1.3 mg/l​	▲
C(i)​	INORGANIC CARBON​	27.30 mg/l​	27 mg/l​	▲
C(o)​	ORGANIC CARBON​	5.75 mg/l​	0 - 4 mg/l​	▲
P​	PHOSPHORUS​	NaN µg/l​	12 μg/l​	▲
	RATIO​
	N-C(i)-C(o)-P​	789.87​	0.00​	▲
	N-C-P​	683.47​	0.00​	▲
	N-P​	1182.00​	0.00​	▲
	C(i)-C(o)​	17.06​	0.00​	▲
	N - NO3(N) Ratio​		0.00​	▲

HELP:

TIC

We have found a good level of inorganic carbon and thus carbonate hardness.
Maintain your current dosage.
TNb

We have detected a high level of Nitrogen.

This can have the following disadvantages for your aquarium.

- May increase the chances of Cyanobacteria
- May favour nuisance algae growth
- Can lead to darkening of coral colours

In addition to your inorganic supply of Calcium, Magnesium and Carbonate Hardness, you can also dose BioBase.
If you use the TRITON method:

1. Increase the photoperiod over the algae refugium (do not exceed 14 hours illumination), check performance of algae light (we recommend T5 lighting)
2. If you are not yet using TRITON BioBase and your TOC is in the lower range, you can start with the dosage
3. There is a fundamental error in your system structure. Please contact the support at [email protected] so that we can help you immediately.

If you use a different system:

Consider revising your chosen filtration method.

Please contact us for further support on [email protected]
TOC

We have detected an increased level of organic carbon.
This can have the following disadvantages for your aquarium.

- May increase the chances of Cyanobacteria
- Can cause bacterial blooms (lack of oxygen)
- Can promote diseases
If you use BioBase:

1. Halve the existing dosage

If you use vodka, acetic acid or other carbon sources:

1. Reduce the dosage
2. Consider alternate carbon source
3. Try to better adjust your dose to avoid adverse effects.

 

[Righteous]

I had a similar situation for a while. I’m not sure how they are measuring the organic carbon, and if it differentiates sources of carbon that bacteria can utilize. I’ve had target and elevated organic carbon even without dosing. I just use it as a gauge (kind of like an ORP measurement).

What worked wonders for me was dosing BioBase (regular; not ULNS) daily (which smells like vinegar, so I’m assuming it as some in it), and dosing prodibio bacteria every other week. I did the combo to ensure that the carbon dosing wouldn’t kick off any cyano, and i only got a very small amount when I started. I also stuck to the dosing amount strictly, which for me was only 0.4ml per day.

My NO3 went from over 5ppm to 0.8 in a couple of days of doing this, and stays around there now. My tank is over 5 years old now, and even with a large refugium full of chaeto it didn’t seem to keep up with the nitrate levels. My acros are definitely happier around 1ppm now. I believe the BioBase also has a source of nitrogen to keep it from bottoming out.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I had a similar situation for a while. I’m not sure how they are measuring the organic carbon, and if it differentiates sources of carbon that bacteria can utilize. I’ve had target and elevated organic carbon even without dosing. I just use it as a gauge (kind of like an ORP measurement).

What worked wonders for me was dosing BioBase (regular; not ULNS) daily (which smells like vinegar, so I’m assuming it as some in it), and dosing prodibio bacteria every other week. I did the combo to ensure that the carbon dosing wouldn’t kick off any cyano, and i only got a very small amount when I started. I also stuck to the dosing amount strictly, which for me was only 0.4ml per day.

My NO3 went from over 5ppm to 0.8 in a couple of days of doing this, and stays around there now. My tank is over 5 years old now, and even with a large refugium full of chaeto it didn’t seem to keep up with the nitrate levels. My acros are definitely happier around 1ppm now. I believe the BioBase also has a source of nitrogen to keep it from bottoming out.

While debating whether or not to get a chaeto reactor, I put some biopellets in a reactor but am now thinking that could be a mistake because I believe the pellets will raise the C level (but organic or inorganic?) when my organic C is already slightly elevated.

 

[MnFish1]

Below are my N-DOC Results and Recommendations. From what I can see, my Total N and NO3 are too high. (I'm assuming the N is high because of the elevated NO3). The organic C is slightly elevated. (I've been dosing a very low level of Carbon about 4-5 times a week; I will stop for a while.) All of the ratios are elevated, and I assume this is because of the elevated NO3.

My QUESTIONS:
1. Am I correct in concluding that elevated NO3 is my only real concern and that is what I need to deal with?
2. NOTE: Today I tested NO3 with a Hanna HR checker and it was 15. I know that many SPS growers have no problem with NO3 levels much higher than this, (including myself, in the past). Should I even be concerned with a NO3 level of 15? Or, are the Triton methods and recommendations all designed to keep NO3 in the 2-5 range and anything above will trigger warnings? If so, I have to wonder how important that is because I have seen many beautiful SPS tanks running NO3 much higher.
3. One recommendation is to use BIOBASE but only if the organic Carbon is on the low side. (Mine isn't)
a) What is in BIOBASE and what does it do? Is it simply a N source but not NO3?
b) Why shouldn't it be used with normal or high organic Carbon? (Does it contain organic Carbon?)
4. For quite a long time I've been considering getting a Chaeto reactor and am wondering if it is really necessary. (Today, I put some biopellets in a reactor to see how things look after lowering the NO3 a little).

Comments: My SPS have been struggling a bit but I believe it is because I moved 6 months ago. I used all the same equipment with the move but lost an unusually high number of colonies and frags mostly soon after the move. (I've moved several times in my life but never had this problem, and this move was the easiest and shortest distance). Everything seems to be stabilizing now.
An ICP test at the same time as the N-DOC was fairly normal (with the exception of slightly low B and Mo and the usual low I, Fl, Fe and Mn)


N-DOC

ANALYSIS AND RECOMMENDATIONS

Data Help Dose Visual​

Measured parameters

	Organic-Group​	Analysis​	Setpoint​
TIC​	Total inorganic carbon​	27.30 mg/l​	27 mg/l​	▲
TOC​	Total organic carbon​	5.75 mg/l​	0 - 4 mg/l​	▲
TC​	Total carbon​	33.06 mg/l​	31 mg/l​	▲
TNb​	Total nitrogen​	7.88 mg/l​	0.4 - 1.3 mg/l​	▲

Organic-group

	Element​	Analysis​
	dKH​	7.32​		▲
	Alk​	2.61​		▲
	N/NO3 calculated​	34.83​		▲

Calculated nutrient ratio N-C-P

	PARAMETER​	Analysis​	Setpoint TRITON RATIO​
N​	NITROGENE​	7.88 mg/l​	0.4 - 1.3 mg/l​	▲
C(i)​	INORGANIC CARBON​	27.30 mg/l​	27 mg/l​	▲
C(o)​	ORGANIC CARBON​	5.75 mg/l​	0 - 4 mg/l​	▲
P​	PHOSPHORUS​	NaN µg/l​	12 μg/l​	▲
	RATIO​
	N-C(i)-C(o)-P​	789.87​	0.00​	▲
	N-C-P​	683.47​	0.00​	▲
	N-P​	1182.00​	0.00​	▲
	C(i)-C(o)​	17.06​	0.00​	▲
	N - NO3(N) Ratio​		0.00​	▲

HELP:

TIC

We have found a good level of inorganic carbon and thus carbonate hardness.
Maintain your current dosage.
TNb

We have detected a high level of Nitrogen.

This can have the following disadvantages for your aquarium.

- May increase the chances of Cyanobacteria
- May favour nuisance algae growth
- Can lead to darkening of coral colours

In addition to your inorganic supply of Calcium, Magnesium and Carbonate Hardness, you can also dose BioBase.
If you use the TRITON method:

1. Increase the photoperiod over the algae refugium (do not exceed 14 hours illumination), check performance of algae light (we recommend T5 lighting)
2. If you are not yet using TRITON BioBase and your TOC is in the lower range, you can start with the dosage
3. There is a fundamental error in your system structure. Please contact the support at [email protected] so that we can help you immediately.

If you use a different system:

Consider revising your chosen filtration method.

Please contact us for further support on [email protected]
TOC

We have detected an increased level of organic carbon.
This can have the following disadvantages for your aquarium.

- May increase the chances of Cyanobacteria
- Can cause bacterial blooms (lack of oxygen)
- Can promote diseases
If you use BioBase:

1. Halve the existing dosage

If you use vodka, acetic acid or other carbon sources:

1. Reduce the dosage
2. Consider alternate carbon source
3. Try to better adjust your dose to avoid adverse effects.

No clue how to answer your question - however, if I'm reading what they are writing, aren't they saying your N and C are high - which can 'increase the risk for cyanobacteria', yet isn't the common 'wisdom' that low levels of nutrients are associated with cyanobacteria? Additionally, not sure how to read the report since it does not show (that I can see) your P level, yet they calculate a ratio?

I would rather see nitrate, and Phosphate numbers personally.

 

[Righteous]

Biopellets could raise the organic carbon. Inorganic carbon is simply how they are measuring alkalinity.

NDOC doesn’t measure nitrogen or phosphate directly. Phosphate can get measured with the ICP analysis. The way the NDOC report works, is you’re supposed to input your own nitrate and phosphate levels for it to show accurate ratios and give recommendations. Cyanobacteria also can most certainly occur in high nutrient scenarios as well, it depends a lot on the tank and competing organisms within it.

Frankly, the triton ratios are a bit hand wavey to me, and it’s not clear a specific ratio is best. I think NDOC reports shouldn’t be looked at as specific enough for action alone, but used in conjunction to get feel for things; especially over the long run. The total nitrogen for instance does usually move in conjunction with NO3 levels, but not always 1 to 1, since it measures ammonia / other sources of nitrogen as well.

As for stopping the biopellets, that’s not a simple call and I wouldn’t do it based on the NDOC saying you have high organic carbon. My two cents, however, is that you are much better off switching to vinegar or BioBase dosing. Those are much easier to control, start out small, and see the effects. Also I think the acetic acid (vinegar) is a better carbon source for bacteria than the biopellets. (Im assuming you’re running a skimmer, otherwise I wouldn’t carbon dose)

The elevated organic carbon reading I would interpret as “there might be a higher chance for cyano problems with carbon dosing” but it’s not a sure thing.

You mention SPS struggling, and while zero NO3 or P is definitely bad, in my experience 15ppm NO3 isn’t great for them either, so I do think you’re correct in addressing it.

 

[Righteous]

I just wanted to clarify… , high NO3 like 15ppm isn’t going to kill SPS but it can affect coloration, and it can contribute to other issues in the tank that can irritate coral (algae buildup etc). So take that with a grain of salt; and always go with how the tank looks. If you’re seeing brown corals, nuisance algae, it can be an element to look at along with other things. But there are definitely tanks that can thrive and have beautiful SPS with those levels as well (although I usually see those running high dKH as well; whereas your running 7.8)

Also you mentioned you just moved. Have you taken a look at CO2 and your pH? A new place might be sealed up tighter and causing low pH issues for you.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Biopellets could raise the organic carbon. Inorganic carbon is simply how they are measuring alkalinity.

NDOC doesn’t measure nitrogen or phosphate directly. Phosphate can get measured with the ICP analysis. The way the NDOC report works, is you’re supposed to input your own nitrate and phosphate levels for it to show accurate ratios and give recommendations. Cyanobacteria also can most certainly occur in high nutrient scenarios as well, it depends a lot on the tank and competing organisms within it.

Frankly, the triton ratios are a bit hand wavey to me, and it’s not clear a specific ratio is best. I think NDOC reports shouldn’t be looked at as specific enough for action alone, but used in conjunction to get feel for things; especially over the long run. The total nitrogen for instance does usually move in conjunction with NO3 levels, but not always 1 to 1, since it measures ammonia / other sources of nitrogen as well.

As for stopping the biopellets, that’s not a simple call and I wouldn’t do it based on the NDOC saying you have high organic carbon. My two cents, however, is that you are much better off switching to vinegar or BioBase dosing. Those are much easier to control, start out small, and see the effects. Also I think the acetic acid (vinegar) is a better carbon source for bacteria than the biopellets. (Im assuming you’re running a skimmer, otherwise I wouldn’t carbon dose)

The elevated organic carbon reading I would interpret as “there might be a higher chance for cyano problems with carbon dosing” but it’s not a sure thing.

You mention SPS struggling, and while zero NO3 or P is definitely bad, in my experience 15ppm NO3 isn’t great for them either, so I do think you’re correct in addressing it.

Just to clarify a few things:
- I just started the bio-pellets today since I had them available. I just didn't think about them raising the Carbon, but again, I'm not sure if they raise the organic or inorganic carbon. Only the organic C was elevated (slightly).
-I had been carbon dosing with Red Sea NO3O4-X plus brown sugar, but only sparingly.
-I do have a skimmer
-I did run a ICP test concurrently and "checked" the box to use the PO4 result from that test for the N-DOC ratios. I assumed that the N-DOC test would measure NO3 (but I guess not?)
-I'm not too worried about cyano.

My main reason for starting this thread was to learn how to interpret the N-DOC report AND to help me decide on whether or not to buy a Chaeto reactor. I probably need to read up more on biopellets. If they essentially do the same thing as carbon dosing, I might as well stop them (since I only started them today) and continue with the carbon dosing, feed less, and think a little more about getting the Chaeto reactor (Tunze).

Thank you for helping.

 

[Dr. Jim]

No clue how to answer your question - however, if I'm reading what they are writing, aren't they saying your N and C are high - which can 'increase the risk for cyanobacteria', yet isn't the common 'wisdom' that low levels of nutrients are associated with cyanobacteria? Additionally, not sure how to read the report since it does not show (that I can see) your P level, yet they calculate a ratio?

I would rather see nitrate, and Phosphate numbers personally.

My PO4 with the Triton ICP run at the same time as the N-DOC was 0.021
My NO3 today is 15.
My alk is usually closer to 8.0 so not sure if their reading is accurate for 7.32

Thanks for your comments!

 

[Dr. Jim]

I just wanted to clarify… , high NO3 like 15ppm isn’t going to kill SPS but it can affect coloration, and it can contribute to other issues in the tank that can irritate coral (algae buildup etc). So take that with a grain of salt; and always go with how the tank looks. If you’re seeing brown corals, nuisance algae, it can be an element to look at along with other things. But there are definitely tanks that can thrive and have beautiful SPS with those levels as well (although I usually see those running high dKH as well; whereas your running 7.8)

Also you mentioned you just moved. Have you taken a look at CO2 and your pH? A new place might be sealed up tighter and causing low pH issues for you.

I have a pH probe but it is probably due for calibrating. Honestly, I just try to keep pH as high as possible and am pretty sure it doesn't go above 8.4.
I have a 2-canister CO2 scrubber (with an initial, 3d stage for carbon) that draws air from outside and piped directly to skimmer. I'm in Florida so windows are usually open since October (but not July, when I moved here, to Oct).
I use a Kalk reactor, too.

 

[Dr. Jim]

With a Chaeto reactor, I'm just worried about bottoming out the phosphates and making more work for myself with testing, additional dosing of elements for chaeto and possibly having to dose phosphates and/or nitrates. Of course if either bottoms out then I've created new problems.

 

[MnFish1]

With a Chaeto reactor, I'm just worried about bottoming out the phosphates and making more work for myself with testing, additional dosing of elements for chaeto and possibly having to dose phosphates and/or nitrates. Of course if either bottoms out then I've created new problems.

This may not be popular - I'm not sure about the ratio they are using - or that one can base running a tank on a ratio. I think the organic carbon is interesting, too high - and can be eliminated to a degree with activated carbon. IMHO - people are looking for tests to run a reef tank 'correctly'. The best way to run a reef tank IMHO - again - it's heretical - is look at your livestock. They will tell you if the numbers are right - of course periodic testing is great. But - Alkalinity every day (not for me) - Calcium every week (not for me). Mg every month (not for me). Solutions that contain simple and easily obtainable ingredients like @Randy Holmes-Farley's mixtures - which take care of everything - thats my game.

 

[Dr. Jim]

This may not be popular - I'm not sure about the ratio they are using - or that one can base running a tank on a ratio. I think the organic carbon is interesting, too high - and can be eliminated to a degree with activated carbon. IMHO - people are looking for tests to run a reef tank 'correctly'. The best way to run a reef tank IMHO - again - it's heretical - is look at your livestock. They will tell you if the numbers are right - of course periodic testing is great. But - Alkalinity every day (not for me) - Calcium every week (not for me). Mg every month (not for me). Solutions that contain simple and easily obtainable ingredients like @Randy Holmes-Farley's mixtures - which take care of everything - thats my game.

I agree with all you are saying especially "looking at your livestock." BuT, if your 'livestock' (coral) does not look right, you do need testing to help figure out why. If everything looks good, all that tells me is that I shouldn't change anything and use that as a time to run every test kit I have to see what values they show when "everything looks good." Then, save those values to compare with future tests when things don't look good.

 

[KrisReef]

 

[MnFish1]

I agree with all you are saying especially "looking at your livestock." BuT, if your 'livestock' (coral) does not look right, you do need testing to help figure out why. If everything looks good, all that tells me is that I shouldn't change anything and use that as a time to run every test kit I have to see what values they show when "everything looks good." Then, save those values to compare with future tests when things don't look good.

Correct - but - here is one issue - the testing does not reveal a potential coral disease - as ne example. For this reason - I do not agreee with these tests designed to make you change your tank

 

[MnFish1]

I agree with all you are saying especially "looking at your livestock." BuT, if your 'livestock' (coral) does not look right, you do need testing to help figure out why. If everything looks good, all that tells me is that I shouldn't change anything and use that as a time to run every test kit I have to see what values they show when "everything looks good." Then, save those values to compare with future tests when things don't look good.

Yes - if your livestock doesn't look right you should test.

 

[Righteous]

I probably need to read up more on biopellets. If they essentially do the same thing as carbon dosing

Yes, biopellets are made up of polymers (large carbon based molecules) that certain bacteria are able to consume. In the process the bacteria will also consume nitrate and phosphate, and then you can skim out the bacterial waste.

One additional difference is that the bio pellet polymers are these weird long molecules that aren’t soluble and basically only processed by bacteria.

Vinegar on the other hand is soluble and in addition coral can use the acetate directly as an energy source.

Both can also drop pH and reduce oxygen as the bacteria grow, so another benefit is that with liquid dosing you can time it during the day when both are already higher.

Biopellets do work to lower nitrate and phosphate the a lesser degree. You can use vinegar and biopellets together, the downside being that they compete, and may cause an even more rapid drop in nitrate and phosphate.


Thread 'Understanding Bio-Pellets'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/understanding-bio-pellets.138237/