Tropic Marin Actif

[ReneReef]

Nice read! Thanks!

Regarding Reef Actif and it being described as "mainly seaweed derived bio-polymers", this makes me think of alginate. I've worked with alginate and the Reef Actif powder looks and feels very similar.

Alginate is widely used to make moulds and it's used as thickening agent in foods as well. So it's very easy to come by. Our hobby is very small, so the chance of this product being anything unique is extremely small (zero) I would say.

Are there any other candidate seaweed polymers that would fit the description, be regularly available and cheap?

I have some Reef Actif somewhere. If I can find it I'll see how it behaves when I mix it in a ratio for mould making...

 

[aquadise]

That’s about what I saw in my system. Very minimal nutrient changes.



There should never be a set dosage for any carbon source, or at least a dose that’s not being modified. There’s too many variables in every system that change from week to week. The dose should always be based on consumption, nutrient numbers, bacterial load, DOC, and how the system is behaving in general. I’m not recommending Vodka to anybody here. If you think Reef Actif is magic juice keep dosing it. I’ve dosed every carbon source available. I know how they all behave, aggressiveness on nutrients, and influence on bacteria and other microorganisms in my system.

If I were to pick a product, Reef Actif would be last on the list. Most fall for the hype behind all the Buzz words, and Lou’s long live streams with various social media influencers.

Buzz words:

“Natural Organic Substances”
“Predominantly Marine Origin” “Biopolymers”
“Completely Natural”
“No overdosing”

They mention the word Natural 3x in the description. I mean who doesn’t want a “natural” “organic” carbon source that can’t be overdosed? That sounds absolutely wonderful to the newbie reefer, and they know that. I had high expectations for their carbon dosing line (probably like many others did) until none of them produced the desired results, and I watched potato Vodka outperform their entire product line.
I went back to Vodka last after testing all of their products.

As mentioned above, they put trace elements in some of their products, but failed to list that under the main ingredients list. That was another kick to the gut. More wasted money as I can’t use those products now, and they weren’t cheap. To find that information you literally need to scroll down to the “very bottom of the page” where it’s listed under “other product recommendations.” How is that a recommendation if they’re already in the product.? It’s not. Had I known that, I would’ve never bought any of them in the first place. That’s what got me irritated with TM.

To Dr. Balling’s credit…he did tell me the truth about the trace elements in the products when I asked (Or at least some- I think).

For me it makes zero sense why Tropic Marin would leave pertinent information out of the main ingredients list.

Both product descriptions for Plus-NP and Elimi-NP fail to mention anything about containing three vital trace elements (Mn, Ni, and Zn). That’s key information, and anybody would want to know that. Sneaky and untrustworthy. Who knows what else is in there honestly.

Thanks. Curios to know your experience to a max dose that you ever dosed vodka to your tank. This is just for information. I will not say it is guidance or something.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I did not see any “less undesirable” effects from TM products as opposed to regular Vodka or Vinegar. Would love to know what those are. Cyano?
Bad Bacteria? How do they know which bacteria was being fed? How do you feed a specific desirable bacteria without feeding the undesirable bacteria?

A polymeric carbon compound will most likely be degraded more slowly which results in a more slowly and even oxygen consumption. Also bacterial propagation will be more slowly. It may depend if these effects are desirable or undesirable. Since you prefer vodka or vinegar, rapid bacterial growth and rapid and uneven oxygen consumption may be desirabel for you.

Well, the discussion about prebiotics (i. e. certain fibers) and their effect on the gut microbiota may have completely passed you by. Reef Actif as a product was introduced quite some time before this discussion arrived in popular literature. So in the beginning I didn't know how to exactly describe the quality that today is called prebiotic, so I circumscribed it as good as I could.

How do I know which bacteria are being fed? The scientific literature in the internet about bacteria also contains tables on which compounds certain bacteria are able to grow. So you can check which bacteria will grow on a certain substrate or, if you want certain groups of bacteria which compounds to choose.

Generalizing it can be said that monomers and dimers high in energy like ethanol, glucose, acetate etc. feed fast growing bacteria that may produce a lot of slime and have a rapid oxygen consumption and CO2 release. Compounds like sugar or ethanol are not known to have any beneficial effect or have even adverse effects on human gut microbiota.

It are the long chain biopolymers (fibers) which are said to have beneficial effects on gut microbiota. In the tables in the literature these biopolymers feed only certain bacteria that have the enzymes to break down the biopolymers.

I could go into more details about the fish guts of detrivores and their microbiology etc. but I don't want to make it too lengthy now.

Well, finally I found these biopolymers and their effects on corals by mere trial. I looked for explanations and it took quite a long time until I found more details which confirmed which in the beginning was just a theory.

Not sure I would taste them, but the whole polymer description is bit confusing.

Reef Actif and the polymers in there don't taste sweet. Reefaholic abviously has tried the liquid organic carbon dosing products.

I certainly wouldn’t expect it to taste like Sucrose that’s for sure.

For example Elimi-NP states it quite clearly: Polyalcohols. Now some chemists would have a suspect when they read polyalcohols and tasting sweet. For sure it is not sugar or does contain any sugar.

Are there any other candidate seaweed polymers that would fit the description, be regularly available and cheap?

Well, alginate is quite cheap but not all that are regularly available are just as cheap, like agar for example.

 

[Dburr1014]

I

Hi all.

Came across this product last week and used it for the first time yesterday.

I saw a 0.5ppm reduction in PO4 overnight and a 10ppm reduction in nitrate.

It says it contains naturally derived biopolymers from plants and algae, anyone know how it will work?

Any things to watch for when using it?

Have talked with Lou Ekus on this product and he tells me this is more of a maintenance program. It keeps things where they are not so much to reduce any levels.

Edit: I am guilty of not reading the thread before responding.
I hate when that happens! LOL
When I see your levels dropped that fast, it screams testing error.

 

[aquadise]

A polymeric carbon compound will most likely be degraded more slowly which results in a more slowly and even oxygen consumption. Also bacterial propagation will be more slowly. It may depend if these effects are desirable or undesirable. Since you prefer vodka or vinegar, rapid bacterial growth and rapid and uneven oxygen consumption may be desirabel for you.

Well, the discussion about prebiotics (i. e. certain fibers) and their effect on the gut microbiota may have completely passed you by. Reef Actif as a product was introduced quite some time before this discussion arrived in popular literature. So in the beginning I didn't know how to exactly describe the quality that today is called prebiotic, so I circumscribed it as good as I could.

How do I know which bacteria are being fed? The scientific literature in the internet about bacteria also contains tables on which compounds certain bacteria are able to grow. So you can check which bacteria will grow on a certain substrate or, if you want certain groups of bacteria which compounds to choose.

Generalizing it can be said that monomers and dimers high in energy like ethanol, glucose, acetate etc. feed fast growing bacteria that may produce a lot of slime and have a rapid oxygen consumption and CO2 release. Compounds like sugar or ethanol are not known to have any beneficial effect or have even adverse effects on human gut microbiota.

It are the long chain biopolymers (fibers) which are said to have beneficial effects on gut microbiota. In the tables in the literature these biopolymers feed only certain bacteria that have the enzymes to break down the biopolymers.

I could go into more details about the fish guts of detrivores and their microbiology etc. but I don't want to make it too lengthy now.

Well, finally I found these biopolymers and their effects on corals by mere trial. I looked for explanations and it took quite a long time until I found more details which confirmed which in the beginning was just a theory.


Reef Actif and the polymers in there don't taste sweet. Reefaholic abviously has tried the liquid organic carbon dosing products.


For example Elimi-NP states it quite clearly: Polyalcohols. Now some chemists would have a suspect when they read polyalcohols and tasting sweet. For sure it is not sugar or does contain any sugar.


Well, alginate is quite cheap but not all that are regularly available are just as cheap, like agar for example.

Thanks for the detail.

May I ask if it is possible to mix Reef Actif with pellets fish food, and feeding together via an auto feeder? Will it sticking the fish food?

 

[Hans-Werner]

Bad Bacteria? How do they know which bacteria was being fed? How do you feed a specific desirable bacteria without feeding the undesirable bacteria?

One recent example from scientific literature on the above mentioned prebiotic effect of maybe the most omnipresent fiber cellulose that can be found in all plants including most macroalgae:

FISCHER, Florence, et al. Dietary cellulose induces anti-inflammatory immunity and transcriptional programs via maturation of the intestinal microbiota. Gut Microbes, 2020, 12. Jg., Nr. 1, S. 1829962.

Here you can find almost everything I explained above, health effects, which bacteria etc.. Now, how do we know it is beneficial?

 

[Hans-Werner]

May I ask if it is possible to mix Reef Actif with pellets fish food, and feeding together via an auto feeder? Will it sticking the fish food?

I have not tried it yet but it should work. The powder is not very hygroscopic so I think it will remain flowing freely in the auto feeder. After it has powdered the food and dropped into the water some of it may stick to the fish food, which is not bad for the fish.

 

[Pod_01]

I have not tried it yet but it should work. The powder is not very hygroscopic so I think it will remain flowing freely in the auto feeder. After it has powdered the food and dropped into the water some of it may stick to the fish food, which is not bad for the fish.

Hmmmm…. Could it be mixed into TM Reef Snow?

I observed that the fish goes after the mixture when added to the tank.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Hmmmm…. Could it be mixed into TM Reef Snow?

I observed that the fish goes after the mixture when added to the tank.

What do you intend?

Yes, it could be mixed into Reef Snow.

 

[Pod_01]

What do you intend?

Yes, it could be mixed into Reef Snow.

Just to add a bit of Reef Actif into the TM Reef Snow.

At this point I mix in Phyton, Zooton and Immuvit. One more powder…

 

[ReneReef]

Well, alginate is quite cheap but not all that are regularly available are just as cheap, like agar for example.

Never realized agar is seaweed derived as well.
Thanks for all the info and taking the time again to answer here.

So reef actif is?
A - agar
B - agar and alginate
C - agar and alginate and cellulose
D - A or B or C with …

Why a mixture? What makes a mixture better than any of those polymers by itself? How did you come to the (optimal) combination and ratio between the polymers?

One recent example from scientific literature on the above mentioned prebiotic effect of maybe the most omnipresent fiber cellulose that can be found in all plants including most macroalgae:

FISCHER, Florence, et al. Dietary cellulose induces anti-inflammatory immunity and transcriptional programs via maturation of the intestinal microbiota. Gut Microbes, 2020, 12. Jg., Nr. 1, S. 1829962.

Here you can find almost everything I explained above, health effects, which bacteria etc.. Now, how do we know it is beneficial?

This is a study in mice.
That a prebiotic effect may translate to another mammal. Seems likely. That it may translate from land mammal to a aquatic non-mammalian vertebrate like a fish, seems a quite a stretch.

But we are not feeding Reef Actif to our fish.
We are dosing it to our tanks.

If I understand you correctly you thus assume that a substance with prebiotic effects on a mammal’s gut microbiome, will therefore also have a prebiotic effect on the microbiome of a marine aquarium and all organisms Iiving in that aquarium.

I think this is stretching the evidence so thin, there’s barely anything left.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Never realized agar is seaweed derived as well.
Thanks for all the info and taking the time again to answer here.

So reef actif is?
A - agar
B - agar and alginate
C - agar and alginate and cellulose
D - A or B or C with …

Why a mixture? What makes a mixture better than any of those polymers by itself? How did you come to the (optimal) combination and ratio between the polymers?


This is a study in mice.
That a prebiotic effect may translate to another mammal. Seems likely. That it may translate from land mammal to a aquatic non-mammalian vertebrate like a fish, seems a quite a stretch.

But we are not feeding Reef Actif to our fish.
We are dosing it to our tanks.

If I understand you correctly you thus assume that a substance with prebiotic effects on a mammal’s gut microbiome, will therefore also have a prebiotic effect on the microbiome of a marine aquarium and all organisms Iiving in that aquarium.

I think this is stretching the evidence so thin, there’s barely anything left.

I would not expect an answer that explains what is in a proprietary formulation. Others, including me, have asked before.

 

[Reefahholic]

Thanks. Curios to know your experience to a max dose that you ever dosed vodka to your tank. This is just for information. I will not say it is guidance or something.

If you’re looking for a carbon dosing guide to get a ballpark on how to start dosing or how much to increase by, see Miami Reef’s guide or Glenn Fong’s. I don’t really have a max dose. It always varies. Typically I dose a very minimal amount up to 10-15mL’s if needed. I have a 105/G system that is not over-stocked with fish, and well managed on the nutrient end. So only a minimal amount of dosing is required to achieve the desired results I’m looking for.

Here’s Glenn’s guide to give you a idea,
but it’s Vinegar and Sugar source. Vinegar is about 7x weaker than Vodka.

Here’s Miami’s for Vodka:

 

[Vested]

@Hans-Werner Why can’t you be clear about what reef-actif is? It would be so beneficial to actually say what the specific compound is and we can all advance from it. Saying what it is will not change the sales, it may help. I would gain a lot of respect for you

Look at your other products, you share whats in them and people then actually understand the use case and quality. Keeping it a secret doesn’t help anyone

 

[folsomreefing]

Keep an eye on PH when carbon dosing

 

[Hans-Werner]

@Hans-Werner Why can’t you be clear about what reef-actif is? It would be so beneficial to actually say what the specific compound is and we can all advance from it. Saying what it is will not change the sales, it may help. I would gain a lot of respect for you

Look at your other products, you share whats in them and people then actually understand the use case and quality. Keeping it a secret doesn’t help anyone

It is a mix of different fibers, most of which are produced by marine macroalgae. The smaller fraction of the mix is in fact of landplant origin but the biopolymers are also found in macroalgae.

In contrast to trace element concentrations which nowadays are very useful to estimate the influence on ICP test results, the names of the biopolymers are of no additional use to the information on the effects I have already given.

If you look into the biopolymers/fibers found in marine macroalgae the number of compounds in question is not huge and we mix four of them.

 

[Vested]

It is a mix of different fibers, most of which are produced by marine macroalgae. The smaller fraction of the mix is in fact of landplant origin but the biopolymers are also found in macroalgae.

In contrast to trace element concentrations which nowadays are very useful to estimate the influence on ICP test results, the names of the biopolymers are of no additional use to the information on the effects I have already given.

If you look into the biopolymers/fibers found in marine macroalgae the number of compounds in question is not huge and we mix four of them.

Are you legally obligated not to say specifically what the fibers and biopolymers are? What are we talking about? The names absolutely are useful https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848697001129?via=ihub This is an interesting article in the same realm. "It is proposed that bacteria resident in the digestive system of H. midae assist in the digestion of alginate, laminarin, agarose, carrageenan and cellulose."

 

[Hans-Werner]

Are you legally obligated not to say specifically what the fibers and biopolymers are? What are we talking about? The names absolutely are useful https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848697001129?via=ihub This is an interesting article in the same realm. "It is proposed that bacteria resident in the digestive system of H. midae assist in the digestion of alginate, laminarin, agarose, carrageenan and cellulose."

Yes, this article is good, your headline names three of the four. I told you it is not that difficult.

No, I am not allowed to publish or pass on companie's secrets.

 

[Vested]

Yes, this article is good, your headline names three of the four. I told you it is not that difficult.

No, I am not allowed to publish or pass on companie's secrets.

Ok if you're not allowed to that makes sense I'll stop pushing you lol, appreciate the insight. Time to jump into a rabbit hole about what mollusks eat.