Treating velvet with a eel

[q8cyu]

Hi, my fish have seemed to have caught velvet from a new addition while I was away. Many have died since then I am going to run fallow (around 8 weeks) and set up a hospital tank. My main concern is my eel. I know they can transfer velvet more than they catch it. What should I use for the eel since they are sensitive to copper. Should I still use copper something else. Will that also work for the other fish.
Not sure if it helps but I’ll add it if it does, the eel is a barred moray (echidna polyzona)
Thanks in advance.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi, my fish have seemed to have caught velvet from a new addition while I was away. Many have died since then I am going to run fallow (around 8 weeks) and set up a hospital tank. My main concern is my eel. I know they can transfer velvet more than they catch it. What should I use for the eel since they are sensitive to copper. Should I still use copper something else. Will that also work for the other fish.
Thanks in advance.

Eels can contract velvet. They are less prone to ich. I've used coppersafe on eels, but the eel might go off feed during the treatment. Another option is chloroquine. Here is a write-up I did on Velvet:

Amyloodinium, (a.k.a. marine velvet disease)​

Cause

Commonly known as “marine velvet” in hobby parlance, Amyloodinium is caused by a dinoflagellate protozoan that can create severe epidemics in aquariums. Furthermore, it can infect fishes that are normally more resistant to other marine protozoan diseases (e.g., Cryptocaryon), such as sharks, rays, and eels.

Symptoms

The life cycle of Amyloodinium is very similar to that of Cryptocaryon, as are the possible treatments available, but it has less distinctive early symptoms and can cause fish mortalities much sooner than other protozoan infections—sometimes within 24 hours of the onset of obvious symptoms. This disease begins as an infection of the fish’s gills, and only in advanced cases does it spread to the skin, giving it a “velvety” look. Symptoms include rapid breathing (greater than 140 beats per minute) and hovering in the current from pumps.

Beginning aquarists often miss the first symptoms and commonly report, “All my fish suddenly died, but the invertebrates are all fine.” Since invertebrates are typically more sensitive to water-quality issues than fish are, the fact that the fish suddenly died but the invertebrates were unharmed means that water-quality problems can be ruled out. That leaves a fish disease, and Amyloodinium can often be diagnosed without even needing to perform a necropsy on the fish due to the rapidity of the fish loss!



Diagnosis

The key to early diagnosis of Amyloodinium is to monitor the fish’s gill health by taking regular fish respiration rates. This is a simple matter of counting the number of gill beats in one minute for a representative fish in the aquarium and then rechecking the respiration rate every few days to watch for any elevation in that rate.

Newly acquired fish that are not being treated prophylactically should have their respiration rate checked daily, as these fish are the ones at greatest risk of developing this disease. The actual respiration rate is not that important, it is a rise in the rate that must be monitored for.

Different species of fish will respire at different rates. Smaller fish breathe faster than large ones, and fish in warmer water will respire faster as well. Typically, tropical fish will respire between 60 and 120 gill beats per minute. If you can’t view the fish for a full minute, you can try counting for 15 seconds and multiplying the result by four.

Knowing your fish’s normal baseline respiration rate is vital; any rise in that rate above 30% (and not attributable to something else, such as the fish being chased by a tankmate) should be viewed as a possible symptom of this disease.


Treatment

Treatments for Amyloodinium cannot be performed with invertebrates present, yet the entire tank usually needs to be treated in order to eradicate it. Copper sulfate at 0.20 ppm for 14 days is one often-used cure. Chloroquine at 8 to 15 ppm as a 30-day static bath is another treatment that has been used with good success. Amine-based copper medications for 30 days is also effective.

Performing a five-minute freshwater dip can buy some time in order to develop a full treatment. Hydrogen peroxide dips at 75 to 100 ppm and moving the fish to a sterile aquarium has been used in aquaculture. Lowering the tank’s temperature is rarely effective. Likewise, hyposalinity treatments (sometimes recommended for Cryptocaryon treatments) will not work for Amyloodinium.

 

[q8cyu]

Eels can contract velvet. They are less prone to ich. I've used coppersafe on eels, but the eel might go off feed during the treatment. Another option is chloroquine. Here is a write-up I did on Velvet:

Amyloodinium, (a.k.a. marine velvet disease)​

Cause

Commonly known as “marine velvet” in hobby parlance, Amyloodinium is caused by a dinoflagellate protozoan that can create severe epidemics in aquariums. Furthermore, it can infect fishes that are normally more resistant to other marine protozoan diseases (e.g., Cryptocaryon), such as sharks, rays, and eels.

Symptoms

The life cycle of Amyloodinium is very similar to that of Cryptocaryon, as are the possible treatments available, but it has less distinctive early symptoms and can cause fish mortalities much sooner than other protozoan infections—sometimes within 24 hours of the onset of obvious symptoms. This disease begins as an infection of the fish’s gills, and only in advanced cases does it spread to the skin, giving it a “velvety” look. Symptoms include rapid breathing (greater than 140 beats per minute) and hovering in the current from pumps.

Beginning aquarists often miss the first symptoms and commonly report, “All my fish suddenly died, but the invertebrates are all fine.” Since invertebrates are typically more sensitive to water-quality issues than fish are, the fact that the fish suddenly died but the invertebrates were unharmed means that water-quality problems can be ruled out. That leaves a fish disease, and Amyloodinium can often be diagnosed without even needing to perform a necropsy on the fish due to the rapidity of the fish loss!



Diagnosis

The key to early diagnosis of Amyloodinium is to monitor the fish’s gill health by taking regular fish respiration rates. This is a simple matter of counting the number of gill beats in one minute for a representative fish in the aquarium and then rechecking the respiration rate every few days to watch for any elevation in that rate.

Newly acquired fish that are not being treated prophylactically should have their respiration rate checked daily, as these fish are the ones at greatest risk of developing this disease. The actual respiration rate is not that important, it is a rise in the rate that must be monitored for.

Different species of fish will respire at different rates. Smaller fish breathe faster than large ones, and fish in warmer water will respire faster as well. Typically, tropical fish will respire between 60 and 120 gill beats per minute. If you can’t view the fish for a full minute, you can try counting for 15 seconds and multiplying the result by four.

Knowing your fish’s normal baseline respiration rate is vital; any rise in that rate above 30% (and not attributable to something else, such as the fish being chased by a tankmate) should be viewed as a possible symptom of this disease.


Treatment

Treatments for Amyloodinium cannot be performed with invertebrates present, yet the entire tank usually needs to be treated in order to eradicate it. Copper sulfate at 0.20 ppm for 14 days is one often-used cure. Chloroquine at 8 to 15 ppm as a 30-day static bath is another treatment that has been used with good success. Amine-based copper medications for 30 days is also effective.

Performing a five-minute freshwater dip can buy some time in order to develop a full treatment. Hydrogen peroxide dips at 75 to 100 ppm and moving the fish to a sterile aquarium has been used in aquaculture. Lowering the tank’s temperature is rarely effective. Likewise, hyposalinity treatments (sometimes recommended for Cryptocaryon treatments) will not work for Amyloodinium.

Hi, thanks. I’m looking into Chloroquine but it might be more difficult for me to get since from what I’ve seen it requires prescription. (I may be wrong or haven’t looked hard enough yet), the other option is some form of copper. Would the eel be ok with that?
Do they just go off food while they are in copper or will they likely die.. is there another option. From my readership it seems like its either copper or Chloroquine.
Thanks

 

[MnFish1]

I would think the eel could' catch it'. You could Qt It - I'm sure others have said this - from my location I don't see the responses

 

[q8cyu]

I would think the eel could' catch it'. You could Qt It - I'm sure others have said this - from my location I don't see the responses

The eel is already in the tank. My concern is rather than the eel getting infected the eel could be transmitting velvet (they should be resistant unless sick already)
I’m not sure what meds to use or if I should risk copper. From my research copper is the only other medicine other than Chloroquine that is effective against velvet.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi, thanks. I’m looking into Chloroquine but it might be more difficult for me to get since from what I’ve seen it requires prescription. (I may be wrong or haven’t looked hard enough yet), the other option is some form of copper. Would the eel be ok with that?
Do they just go off food while they are in copper or will they likely die.. is there another option. From my readership it seems like its either copper or Chloroquine.
Thanks

Coppersafe or copper power are better with eels than ionic copper products are.

You used to be able to buy chloroquine on EBay, but since people were taking it for covid, sales were stopped. There are some online sources for it, but you have to buy fairly large quantities.

 

[q8cyu]

Coppersafe or copper power are better with eels than ionic copper products are.

You used to be able to buy chloroquine on EBay, but since people were taking it for covid, sales were stopped. There are some online sources for it, but you have to buy fairly large quantities.

Thanks. I saw tablets online but they needed prescription. I might try coppersafe for the eel and fish. If I note they do poorly I can always remove the eel and use something else.

If the eel stops eating should I keep going with treatment or abandon it?

thanks

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks. I saw tablets online but they needed prescription. I might try coppersafe for the eel and fish. If I note they do poorly I can always remove the eel and use something else.

If the eel stops eating should I keep going with treatment or abandon it?

thanks

If the eel is in good condition it can easily go a month without food. Small or thin eels can’t got that long though.

 

[q8cyu]

If the eel is in good condition it can easily go a month without food. Small or thin eels can’t got that long though.

The eel I assume is in good condition, nothings shown that the eel isn’t. Though the eel is not a large eel, somewhere around 1ft.
All my research shows that eels do poorly with copper and may die randomly after treatment.
(I'm not 100% sure though since I’ve never had any experience so i go off of what I’ve seen from people who have had experience.
I’m still researching, I found that general cure may work. I also found it may not so I'm not sure. Would general cure work?
Thanks.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The eel I assume is in good condition, nothings shown that the eel isn’t. Though the eel is not a large eel, somewhere around 1ft.
All my research shows that eels do poorly with copper and may die randomly after treatment.
(I'm not 100% sure though since I’ve never had any experience so i go off of what I’ve seen from people who have had experience.
I’m still researching, I found that general cure may work. I also found it may not so I'm not sure. Would general cure work?
Thanks.

General Cure is not effective against ich or velvet, the metronidazole in it has some possible benefit, but many, many trials have shown it just won’t fully cure these issues. The praziquantel in General Cure only works against flukes and cestodes.

When you read that somebody had an issue with eels and copper, you need to separate out reports using ionic copper from amine chelated copper. If they don’t say what they used, then that information is useless. Disregard any reports of fish dying months/years after copper exposure, none of that has ever been substantiated and is just coincidental.

 

[GARRIGA]

If the eel survives the velvet then wouldn’t going follow mean the velvet obtained by the eel would also disappear?

 

[q8cyu]

If the eel survives the velvet then wouldn’t going follow mean the velvet obtained by the eel would also disappear?

From my understanding, there is a possibility eels can transmit velvet even if they don’t get any symptoms or catch it. Similar with ich. So fallow doesn't work if the eel is in the tank.

 

[q8cyu]

General Cure is not effective against ich or velvet, the metronidazole in it has some possible benefit, but many, many trials have shown it just won’t fully cure these issues. The praziquantel in General Cure only works against flukes and cestodes.

When you read that somebody had an issue with eels and copper, you need to separate out reports using ionic copper from amine chelated copper. If they don’t say what they used, then that information is useless. Disregard any reports of fish dying months/years after copper exposure, none of that has ever been substantiated and is just coincidental.

Ok Thanks. I’ll try to use copper safe for the eel. If I note that the eel is getting very skinny or doing poorly I can always either remove copper or move to DT while I figure something out.
Thank you for the help.

 

[q8cyu]

@Jay Hemdal would you recommend a specific way of dosing the copper safe; Is it better to add it all at once or slowly over the course of a day or two?
I’ve read 2ppm tested with an accurate test kit is best for velvet.
Thanks in advance

 

[GARRIGA]

From my understanding, there is a possibility eels can transmit velvet even if they don’t get any symptoms or catch it. Similar with ich. So fallow doesn't work if the eel is in the tank.

Understood but does the eel then host the velvet and keep it alive or does the velvet then die-off? Could be eels somehow immune if they are carriers and the velvet lives on my inquiry.

 

[q8cyu]

Understood but does the eel then host the velvet and keep it alive or does the velvet then die-off? Could be eels somehow immune if they are carriers and the velvet lives on my inquiry.

I think the velvet stays alive since you can’t fallow with an eel in the tank, but I’m not sure. Eels aren’t really immune just resistant. At least that’s what I’ve seen while going through old threads.

Im not an expert on the topic just read lots of threads to get as many possible opinions and senecios as possible.

 

[MnFish1]

If the eel survives the velvet then wouldn’t going follow mean the velvet obtained by the eel would also disappear?

No - not necessarily - since it is possible that parasites can exist in 'sub-clinical' levels. BTW - Don't quite understand your question do you mean going fallow with the eel in the tank or (the usual dfintion) - the eel and fallow tanks are different? Either way in your case I would use the standard '6-8' week fallow period concurrent with the QT methods mentioned above

 

[GARRIGA]

No - not necessarily - since it is possible that parasites can exist in 'sub-clinical' levels. BTW - Don't quite understand your question do you mean going fallow with the eel in the tank or (the usual dfintion) - the eel and fallow tanks are different? Either way in your case I would use the standard '6-8' week fallow period concurrent with the QT methods mentioned above

Thinking that if velvet doesn’t survive on eel then leaving eel in tank and going follow solves future issues. In the other hand. If eel acts as a true carrier n the sense it is immune to infection but still gets infected then pathogen able to survive and carrier able to infect.

I’m aware sharks have ability to avoid many diseases and not sure if that’s the case with eels where they can’t be predated upon by pathogens therefore pathogen starves vs being able to withstand attack and pathogen continues on.

 

[MnFish1]

Thinking that if velvet doesn’t survive on eel then leaving eel in tank and going follow solves future issues. In the other hand. If eel acts as a true carrier n the sense it is immune to infection but still gets infected then pathogen able to survive and carrier able to infect.

I’m aware sharks have ability to avoid many diseases and not sure if that’s the case with eels where they can’t be predated upon by pathogens therefore pathogen starves vs being able to withstand attack and pathogen continues on.

Thats the problem IMHO, i.e. that it's impossible to know whether this particular eel could/would/should be a carrier. Nothing is 100% - if you know what I mean. So - my comment would be 'not to risk it - especially with velvet'.

 

[q8cyu]

Thats the problem IMHO, i.e. that it's impossible to know whether this particular eel could/would/should be a carrier. Nothing is 100% - if you know what I mean. So - my comment would be 'not to risk it - especially with velvet'.

Yeah that’s why I’m going to qt the eel. I can’t risk having future fish getting velvet.