Thoughts on adding to the cycling tank

[Carz]

With my tank cycle started I am thinking of adding some PNS substrate starter bacteria or Aquaforest Life Bio Fil to the system for more bacteria diversity. Anyone have any thoughts or experience with this?

 

[brandon429]

those aren't more diversity they're more of the same strain you already have

if you add hardscape items from another reef tank, that's diversity. fish and corals added have bacteria stuck to them/any wet item does/not from a bottle/that's diversity

dont get tricked by bottle bac salespersons its not diversity, that bac is only for ammonia control and you're fine on that having used a strain already

**if you haven't used any bottle bac (saying the cycle was started implied it was used) then add 1 brand, but to diversify use items from a pet store for reefing.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

With my tank cycle started I am thinking of adding some PNS substrate starter bacteria or Aquaforest Life Bio Fil to the system for more bacteria diversity. Anyone have any thoughts or experience with this?

Are you opposed to live rock? That's your best shot at adding diversity but some people are strongly opposed to it due to fear of hitchhikers.

 

[Carz]

I am not doing live rock this time for that reason, but I can get some clean live rock from the local fish store

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

those aren't more diversity they're more of the same strain you already have

dont get tricked by bottle bac salespersons its not diversity, that bac is only for ammonia control and you're fine on that having used a strain already

With all due respect, I disagree with this statement, at least regarding the claims about a product that we developed and know pretty well, PNS Substrate Sauce.

Let's start by addressing your first assertion. Despite being extremely common (and ecologically important) in natural reef habitats, the two purple non-sulfur bacteria (PNSB) genera in Substrate Sauce, namely Rhodopseudomonas and Rhodospirillum, are convincingly shown by Dr Eli Meyer of Aquabiomics to be absent from the core microbiome of 'normal' mature reef aquaria. The reason for this could be intense pressure from competitors that are favored in the typical captive environment, or maybe mortality due to oxygen exposure during handling (they're primarily anaerobic), or maybe due to the mortality of another microbe with which they have a symbiotic relationship, or whatever. What really matters in practice is that representatives of this keystone microbial group are either scarce or altogether absent in mature aquaria, and presumably so in new aquaria with dry rock. So:

1. These bacteria are present (and often quite abundant) in the typical shallow tropical coral reef environment (I'm currently maintaining cultures of wild PNSB that I myself recently harvested and isolated from healthy Porites bommies in Polynesia). We know this from the scientific literature.
2. PNSB are, on the other hand, mysteriously lacking in captivity.
3. Fortunately, PNSB (unlike the vast majority of bacteria and archaea) may be cultured at a reasonably large scale.
4. Benefits of adding these cultures to captive systems (as probiotics, for bioremediation, as a food, etc.) have been extensively demonstrated in the literature.

Regarding the second assertion:

1. By introducing species that weren't there before, using this product does increase species diversity (or species richness, in the very least).
2. PNSB benefit corals and other reef-associated biota in several, well-documented ways ranging from regulating nitrogen transformation to being an excellent source of nutrition to inhibiting the growth of potentially pathogenic genera such as (and most notably) Vibrio.
3. However, they are nothing like nitrifying bacteria. Not in where they live, not in how they live. They occupy two very different niches and in fact are ecologically complementary to each other. Unlike nitrifiers, these bacteria are denitrifying (Rhodopseudomonas), diazotrophic, mainly anaerobic, photosynthetic, heterotrophic and undergo a distinct planktonic stage during their life cycle. Thus, using PNSB (e.g., PNS Substrate Sauce) alongside nitrifying bacteria (e.g., TurboStart) is not redundant.

I hope that helps!

 

[fishywishy]

I am not doing live rock this time for that reason, but I can get some clean live rock from the local fish store

Get some cultured live rock then, it wont be as bacterially diverse as normal live rock but its 100% hitchhiker free and cheaper. I also wouldn’t do live rock ever again, it was the worst reefing mistake I've ever made. You could also get live rock but just put a little in your sump to seed the tank and block it off from the main tank so no hitchhikers can get through, and any ones that you would like to keep you can put in you DT.

 

[brandon429]

are you trying to sales pitch me



we use bottled bacteria for cycling only in my work threads

I don’t believe any of the strains originally purchased in a bottle or a vial stick around for very long once true diverse import begins on hard scape items

Eli has pitched me too, by telling me in a huge thread of testless reef tank cycles that it’s not possible to know if a tank is cycled without testing. He sells reef tank testing, you can understand my hesitation

plenty of sources don’t find Eli’s testing to be valid, he didn’t respond on some direct questions I had for him recently so my trust for him didn’t grow.

 

[brandon429]

What’s selected for the long term comes from reef tanks that have been trading in hard scapes and fluid transfers from other reef tanks

being prompted to pay for diversity twice over is what doesn’t make much sense. In the thousands of jobs I’ve done in chat and in threads we never needed to buy more bacteria (beyond the initial dose, if the job was a dry start cycle) to accomplish the ends the reefer wanted, and that above paints a picture to me that we needed some extra bacteria for cost.

one live rock covered in coralline from a pet store is the most ideally selected bacterial vector in reefing for reef tanks, that’s what I believe.

a live rock from the ocean /TBS or KP aquatics is true diversity

Look at the size of our sand rinse work thread, we get more benefit removing bacteria vs adding them for cost that's not hyperbole its driving those results

Macro benefits shown in the fifty pages: skip cycle tank transfers, no testing of any system, no bottle bac used, complete control over reef tank invasions and complete sandbed swaps. The one thing we use to accomplish all that: tap water.

 

[brandon429]

I will honestly believe that for-cost extra bacteria makes a difference when you go into the nuisance algae forum, stickies up top, and send out vials of doser to the wrecked dinos threads and they dose it then their tank clears up and sustains that way and they post about it

I will believe it when your added doser or any other business doser replaces fallow and quarantine for fish disease control, and Jay uses the product in his daily troubleshoots and fixes

or to fix gha wrecked tanks so we don’t need to rip clean them

of all the business writing about microbiology I’ve ever read in reefing yours are the most fascinating and interesting and accurate from what I can tell, but I never lose sight of the macro needs reefers don’t get from them. If anyone is going to get actual tank changes, we can track in a statistical manner for real fixes, it’ll be you and your company I have no doubt but as I read threads, trends and help posts that isn’t right now. We dose extra bacteria to cycled tanks to feel better, as a concept about diversity. I don’t know of any actual jobs getting solved by it, link me the work threads if you have them

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

being prompted to pay for diversity twice over is what doesn’t make much sense.

You don't seem to understand that purple non-sulfur bacteria are not the same as nitrifying bacteria. Therefore, frankly, I don't see how any of this could possibly make sense to you. I applaud your passion and curiosity, but 'thousands of chats and threads,' or even millions, do not supersede the knowledge of an accomplished professional. I suspect from your statements that you have no training in this field. With that, I strongly suggest that you pay closer attention to experts like Dr Meyer. Trust me on this: He and many, many others clearly have a better grasp of this subject than you. Whether or not he makes a living by providing his service (which I seriously doubt he'd ever apologize to you for, nor would I), he's not 'pitching' to you, he's offering to educate you.

To be clear, I don't claim to be an authority on the subject of microbiology in general, nor on the subject of PNSB in particular. I certainly know more about PNSB than the average aquarium hobbyist, though I wield a mere fraction of the knowledge possessed by authorities. And that's the real danger of forums--the danger of a little knowledge in the hands of those who like to talk a lot. Even though I spend a good amount of time on here talking, I try to spend at least as much time listening. And even then, I devote much more time to reading the scientific literature.

So no, I'm not going to send you links to 'work threads.' If you're truly interested in learning more about using PNSB in captive aquatic systems, that's great, I highly recommend your doing so, because they're freaking fascinating and are a great tool for aquarium hobbyists. If you just want anecdotes, do your own search here on R2R, where many fellow hobbyists have already reported their experiences using PNSB. But I'd rather suggest that you at least balance that anecdote with a couple forays into Google Scholar (nobody is trying to 'pitch' you anything there). Moreover, I'd suggest that when something 'doesn't make sense' to you, just pose a specific, pertinent question to a trained professional; impugning the character of others without warrant (e.g., arbitrarily suggesting that someone is attempting to 'trick' you) does nothing to further the conversation.

You'll likely want to issue the final word here (likely many), and you're welcome to it. I don't wish to continue hijacking this thread (my apologies, Carz). I'd be happy to discuss this topic (as time allows) on a new thread. Alternatively, you can message me, or even call my business line at (541) 912-2906. I don't have time for BS accusations or weird arguments, but I'll have a substantive discussion about aquarium microbiology with you or anyone any time.

 

[brandon429]

I think if anyone takes an hour to search key wording to see what Randy thinks of AB testing validity, they’d rate it 2/10

that above is positioning it as 8-9/10 validity so that’s an immediate conflict.


The reason R’s take seems reassuring is he’s selling nothing, there’s no cross motivation possible in his works plus Ive seen him get objective repeatable results for 23 years straight online in other people’s reef tanks, where he can’t shape the feedback they post. I have never seen a bottled bacteria source accomplish anything in pattern other than to cycle a reef for common ammonia control

we deliver results people want by removing bacteria/sloughs and aggregates after reefing begins, post cycle, so that’s where we stand. I cannot accept a reference to a debated third party source as proof of anything

I have no doubt your strains are indeed marine-selected ones and in my opinion more years of honing are needed to be able to commute that heterogeneity into a macro benefit across sixty tanks in a simple goal work thread. My corals grew better, faster in my opinion is too loose to attribute to a bac supplement.


Randy has mentioned AB testing in probably 100 posts I’ve seen, and I attribute it at 1-2/10 validity per his tone and content, I'm reading near total skepticism on validity/check to see if I'm wrong that's not a redirect it's the literal source of my distrust after the initial cycle testing debate with Eli.





the dosers you add don't kill reefs at all, they are not harmful at all but you're never going to encounter this risk to know how it feels to make a live-time specific outcome promise if AB's tests are your proof. its a safe option you provide.

 

[brandon429]

Prodibio BioDigest Likely Has No Effect On Ammonia Oxidation and Does Not Help with Waste Reduction

For years, many aquarists and I religiously dose our tanks with Prodibio BioDigest, in reliance of the claims the product, through a "community" of "bacteria in optimal proportion" would help with "a quick set up of the biological filtration" and with the nitrifying and denitrifying process in...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Prodibio BioDigest Likely Has No Effect On Ammonia Oxidation and Does Not Help with Waste Reduction

For years, many aquarists and I religiously dose our tanks with Prodibio BioDigest, in reliance of the claims the product, through a "community" of "bacteria in optimal proportion" would help with "a quick set up of the biological filtration" and with the nitrifying and denitrifying process in...

www.reef2reef.com

Please enlighten us as to what this has to do with the original post?

 

[brandon429]

Kenneth

post us a before and after picture of a tank that was dosed with your bacteria for sale. once we tie in the changes in the pic to the dosed product= enlightened

three threads that have popped up recently in the chem forum are completely skeptical of the value. That’s why I linked one of them

 

[Timfish]

I'd suggest adding some maricutlured live rock. There's beneficial sponges and microbial stuff that can't be cultured and stuck in a bottle. FWIW, the vast majority of pests I've come across have come from other peoples systems, not maricultures live rock. ANd if you quaritine the live rock like you should any other living organism that goes into your system you have time to identify and remove pests.

Here's some links you may find informative:

Establishing a Healthy Microbiome in a New Aquarium Using Live Rock

Studying the effects of live rock in a newly established aquarium shows that high-quality live rock promotes the rapid establishment of an effective biological filter and a microbial community similar to those found in mature reef tanks.

www.reef2reef.com

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Microbial view of Coral Decline


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"


15 Answers

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

three threads that have popped up recently in the chem forum are completely skeptical of the value. That’s why I linked one of them

You still didn't answer my question.

 

[brandon429]

my response to the first post was that adding the items in question would be a waste of money with no discernible benefit, unless we pay another company to dna test it and discern a benefit off the digital file of the test. I feel each link, comment and post thereafter from me reinforced my original take.

can I get some before and after pics now

if you asked that of me I'd provide forty recent ones.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

I'd suggest adding some maricutlured live rock. There's beneficial sponges and microbial stuff that can't be cultured and stuck in a bottle. FWIW, the vast majority of pests I've come across have come from other peoples systems, not maricultures live rock. ANd if you quaritine the live rock like you should any other living organism that goes into your system you have time to identify and remove pests.

Agreed on all points. I love live rock and miss the old days when good stuff was so widely available. I find it useful in adding diversity generally, and particularly so for adding more or less complete microbial guilds (ecologically functional groups of unrelated species that depend on each other, and plausibly should be added together). That being said, it does appear that many important organisms that appear in abundance on natural reefs get excluded via competitive exclusion in the captive environment (explained in more detail above). It seems that many microbes on the live rock don't persist in aquaria, or don't even make it into the aquarium (i.e., they die during the collection and/or transport).

Speaking of bottled products GENERALLY I'd say that they potentially (I obviously can't speak for every product) can be a good means of replenishing known beneficial species that are found to be scarce in the captive environment. But it's hard to make generalities about this stuff because every case is different--every tank, every stage of that tank's ecological development, and certainly every different species of microbe. In essence, I don't see the use of live rock and bottles products as being mutually exclusive, but rather as being complimentary--the former for promoting overall species richness, and the latter for adding concentrated cultures of a known beneficial species for some special purpose (as a food, for example).

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

my response to the first post was that adding the items in question would be a waste of money with no discernible benefit, unless we pay another company to dna test it and discern a benefit off the digital file of the test. I feel each link, comment and post thereafter from me reinforced my original take.

can I get some before and after pics now

if you asked that of me I'd provide forty recent ones.

Still can't answer how that linked post relates to the OP here?

Dude. For the love of God. These are all completely different microbial products. Your suggestions are akin to a claim that calcium hydroxide is a poor means of raising pH because you failed to obtain satisfactory results using sugar (another white powder) for the same purpose. You need not be a microbiologist, nor even pass 6th grade biology class, to understand that.

Just so you all know, this is THIS Brandon. He’s been at this for a long time now. https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/what-is-the-truth-about-vibrant.10170/page-14

I swore to myself that I’d simply stop acknowledging you from now on, but I’ve finally had it. Just about every single time someone on R2R posts something on the subject of aquarium microbiology–something I’m extremely interested in and take very seriously–you stumble in and turn it into a $hi+show. Please exercise some prudence, at least now and again, and avoid making bizarro claims on topics you know virtually nothing about. It used to be just cringy, now it’s really starting to get frustrating, and I’m obviously not the only one who feels this way.

 

[teaktoc]

With all due respect, I disagree with this statement, at least regarding the claims about a product that we developed and know pretty well, PNS Substrate Sauce.

Let's start by addressing your first assertion. Despite being extremely common (and ecologically important) in natural reef habitats, the two purple non-sulfur bacteria (PNSB) genera in Substrate Sauce, namely Rhodopseudomonas and Rhodospirillum, are convincingly shown by Dr Eli Meyer of Aquabiomics to be absent from the core microbiome of 'normal' mature reef aquaria. The reason for this could be intense pressure from competitors that are favored in the typical captive environment, or maybe mortality due to oxygen exposure during handling (they're primarily anaerobic), or maybe due to the mortality of another microbe with which they have a symbiotic relationship, or whatever. What really matters in practice is that representatives of this keystone microbial group are either scarce or altogether absent in mature aquaria, and presumably so in new aquaria with dry rock. So:

1. These bacteria are present (and often quite abundant) in the typical shallow tropical coral reef environment (I'm currently maintaining cultures of wild PNSB that I myself recently harvested and isolated from healthy Porites bommies in Polynesia). We know this from the scientific literature.
2. PNSB are, on the other hand, mysteriously lacking in captivity.
3. Fortunately, PNSB (unlike the vast majority of bacteria and archaea) may be cultured at a reasonably large scale.
4. Benefits of adding these cultures to captive systems (as probiotics, for bioremediation, as a food, etc.) have been extensively demonstrated in the literature.

Regarding the second assertion:

1. By introducing species that weren't there before, using this product does increase species diversity (or species richness, in the very least).
2. PNSB benefit corals and other reef-associated biota in several, well-documented ways ranging from regulating nitrogen transformation to being an excellent source of nutrition to inhibiting the growth of potentially pathogenic genera such as (and most notably) Vibrio.
3. However, they are nothing like nitrifying bacteria. Not in where they live, not in how they live. They occupy two very different niches and in fact are ecologically complementary to each other. Unlike nitrifiers, these bacteria are denitrifying (Rhodopseudomonas), diazotrophic, mainly anaerobic, photosynthetic, heterotrophic and undergo a distinct planktonic stage during their life cycle. Thus, using PNSB (e.g., PNS Substrate Sauce) alongside nitrifying bacteria (e.g., TurboStart) is not redundant.

I hope that helps!

Agreed on your points, the evidence is sound. I also have a question of sequence/ timing for the addition of PNS Substrate Sauce when cycling with turbostart. Here is my hypothetical protocol:
Day 1

• 1: Add Nitrocycle to fresh salt water in tank to achieve .3 PPM ammonia across system
• 2: Add Turbostart per recommendation
• 3: Add PNS Substrate Sauce; entire bottle day?

My consideration is, if adding the nitrite consuming strains in PNS sauce, will it decrease development of nitrifying colonies otherwise needing to manifest at large in the system? If so, should one wait 24 hours or so once the ammonia is being processed and nitrites are up? This would be adding PNS Substrate on Day 2 of the cycle.