The real max amount of fish in aquarium

[littlefoxx]

I run a heavier bioload in my tank. Most of my fish are juveniles so it all works for now but I am upgrading this year so they have a bigger room once I figure out how big I want/can go. So thats something to consider too when stocking on the higher side. I do lots of stuff with my tank on a weekly basis to keep water quality and yes food is a huge factor!

 

[Rocky Mountain Reef]

240 gallon. 3+ months old. 70+ fish. Took me a while to remember but here’s most of them.

2 blue throat triggers
2 blue tangs
Whitetail tang
Yellow tang
Gem tang
One spot Foxface
Brazilian stripy
6 lyretail anthias
6 disbar anthias
2 coris wrasse
Leopard wrass
8 line wrasse
2 carpenter wrasse
Possum wrass
2 melanurus wrasse
3 dragonetts
2 clowns
2 citron gobies
2 dart fish
3 bandit chromis
Midas Blenny
Swiss guard basslet
2 yellow watchmen
2 dragon gobys
1 Bella goby
Swallowtail angel
Dwarf angel
2 hawkfish
Numerous other small blennies and gobies
Stary blenny
Aptasia filefish
Probably a few more. I’d have to look to find the others. Everyone is happy as I chose peaceful fish and most were put in together.

10+ cubes a day. It’s easier to weigh frozen now. 3g a cube
2 sheets of nori
Masstick on glass
Plank feeder 4x a day 1minute feeding pellets
2 algae waffles? Those sinking discs

Large bashsea sump
Bashsea bio reactor 8 24
Bashsea skimmer 8 24
Oversized uv 110watt linked to return
Abyzz return about 1000gph
Deltec large filter roller
Avast marine ozone
Algae scrubber
50 gallon frag tank attached to system

So about 280 net gallons

Current nutrients
No3 16
Po4 .07

Tweaking nutrients with gfo reactor and nopox. Trying to get around .1 and 10.

Needless to say, yes it’s way overstocked. So yes it’s possible. I automate most things, including 5gal daily water changes. House has generator so won’t ever lose power. And controlled mostly by apex, Reeffactory as a backup.

I wouldn’t recommend going this extreme, but with my equipment it’s easy. No more maintenance than my last tank a quarter of the size. If anything it’s easier as I added daily water change.

Reef moonshiners program all the way

Mostly Marco rock but I did add sand and rubble for Tampa bay to add the correct bacteria.

No algae in dt. Tank is going smoothly. Mostly lps and easy sps right now. 20+ Acro frags coming in 2 weeks as it’s ready.

It’s late so lights are off. And I’m on iPad which I dont take pics on, but here’s the only pic I have on this device taken when first set up.

I have a heavy fish load as well, with success so far, do you have any further pics of your fish?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Hi All,

I'm in the process of deciding what size of tank to buy. For me, fish are equal important to the tank as corals are, and I would like to have a lot of them.

I wondering what the real max amount of fish in a 4 or 5 feet long tank is. I know the usual answer for this is max inch per 3 - 5 gallons of water..
But looking on tank spotlight I see quite a few tanks that were able to support a lot more than that.

Here are 3 examples of tanks with a lot more fish 1 2 3.

I know having really a lot of fish means up filtration, feeding and better aquascape. I'm ready for that.

So my question is, what is real max amount you have been able to successfuly have and been able to keep your paramotors good and no fighting between them...

I'm ready for that.

A high nutrient mixed tank? Then you must have at least two or more tanks, a display tank and filter tank(s), refuge(s). The maximum bio-load depends on the carrying capacity or load-bearing capacity of the system, the ability to reduce produced ammonia within a limited period of time. A fish and other organisms release +- 85% of digested nitrogen ( protein) in the form of NH3 > NH4. All produced ammonia must be reduced as fast as possible.
Then you are aware of the importance of the composition of the food (C/N ratio) that is offered to the fish and other organisms and the major influence of the protein content of that food on the carrying capacity of the tank and the essential nitrate production.

Hirayama (1966) published a formula to calculate the load-bearing capacity of a small marine aquarium. The formula consists of two parts, one part represents the oxidizing capacity of the filter bed and one part represents the pollution by the animals.The necessary load-bearing capacity is not only determined by the total weight of the animals present, if the weight of individual animals decreases, the load-bearing capacity will decrease (StephenHSpotte1979-16: Spotte, S., 1979. Fish and invertebrate culture: water management in closed systems, 2d ed. ed. Wiley, New York.blz 16)

One should not only consider the amount and weight of fishes but mainly the swimming space.
As an example, showing a school of Anthias so that they exhibit their natural behavior requires not only a lot of swimming space, a tank that is not only big enough but high enough.
Most reef fish that are easy to keep are space-bound and territorial and therefore need enough space to safely retreat to the reef, otherwise they are guaranteed to become aggressive. The setup must provide enough hiding space for all. If they are alarmed they must have the option to disappear in their own hiding space.

Produced ammonia is removed ( assimilated) or transformed ( energy) by growth. An aquarium system can be conditioned on a defined load bearing capacity by installing the growth needed .

You say you are ready for the assignment and I am very interested in how you have prepared or going to condition your system for the bio-load that you have anticipated.

 

[Fanreef]

I'm ready for that.

A high nutrient mixed tank? Then you must have at least two or more tanks, a display tank and filter tank(s), refuge(s). The maximum bio-load depends on the carrying capacity or load-bearing capacity of the system, the ability to reduce produced ammonia within a limited period of time. A fish and other organisms release +- 85% of digested nitrogen ( protein) in the form of NH3 > NH4. All produced ammonia must be reduced as fast as possible.
Then you are aware of the importance of the composition of the food (C/N ratio) that is offered to the fish and other organisms and the major influence of the protein content of that food on the carrying capacity of the tank and the essential nitrate production.

Hirayama (1966) published a formula to calculate the load-bearing capacity of a small marine aquarium. The formula consists of two parts, one part represents the oxidizing capacity of the filter bed and one part represents the pollution by the animals.The necessary load-bearing capacity is not only determined by the total weight of the animals present, if the weight of individual animals decreases, the load-bearing capacity will decrease (StephenHSpotte1979-16: Spotte, S., 1979. Fish and invertebrate culture: water management in closed systems, 2d ed. ed. Wiley, New York.blz 16)

One should not only consider the amount and weight of fishes but mainly the swimming space.
As an example, showing a school of Anthias so that they exhibit their natural behavior requires not only a lot of swimming space, a tank that is not only big enough but high enough.
Most reef fish that are easy to keep are space-bound and territorial and therefore need enough space to safely retreat to the reef, otherwise they are guaranteed to become aggressive. The setup must provide enough hiding space for all. If they are alarmed they must have the option to disappear in their own hiding space.

Produced ammonia is removed ( assimilated) or transformed ( energy) by growth. An aquarium system can be conditioned on a defined load bearing capacity by installing the growth needed .

You say you are ready for the assignment and I am very interested in how you have prepared or going to condition your system for the bio-load that you have anticipated.

Thank you for the information above.
I'm still in middle of deciding tank size, after that will come the exact set up.
By "I'm ready for that" I meant that I know there is a higher price for fish heavy tank, and I'm ready for that.

 

[Fanreef]

240 gallon. 3+ months old. 70+ fish. Took me a while to remember but here’s most of them.

2 blue throat triggers
2 blue tangs
Whitetail tang
Yellow tang
Gem tang
One spot Foxface
Brazilian stripy
6 lyretail anthias
6 disbar anthias
2 coris wrasse
Leopard wrass
8 line wrasse
2 carpenter wrasse
Possum wrass
2 melanurus wrasse
3 dragonetts
2 clowns
2 citron gobies
2 dart fish
3 bandit chromis
Midas Blenny
Swiss guard basslet
2 yellow watchmen
2 dragon gobys
1 Bella goby
Swallowtail angel
Dwarf angel
2 hawkfish
Numerous other small blennies and gobies
Stary blenny
Aptasia filefish
Probably a few more. I’d have to look to find the others. Everyone is happy as I chose peaceful fish and most were put in together.

10+ cubes a day. It’s easier to weigh frozen now. 3g a cube
2 sheets of nori
Masstick on glass
Plank feeder 4x a day 1minute feeding pellets
2 algae waffles? Those sinking discs

Large bashsea sump
Bashsea bio reactor 8 24
Bashsea skimmer 8 24
Oversized uv 110watt linked to return
Abyzz return about 1000gph
Deltec large filter roller
Avast marine ozone
Algae scrubber
50 gallon frag tank attached to system

So about 280 net gallons

Current nutrients
No3 16
Po4 .07

Tweaking nutrients with gfo reactor and nopox. Trying to get around .1 and 10.

Needless to say, yes it’s way overstocked. So yes it’s possible. I automate most things, including 5gal daily water changes. House has generator so won’t ever lose power. And controlled mostly by apex, Reeffactory as a backup.

I wouldn’t recommend going this extreme, but with my equipment it’s easy. No more maintenance than my last tank a quarter of the size. If anything it’s easier as I added daily water change.

Reef moonshiners program all the way

Mostly Marco rock but I did add sand and rubble for Tampa bay to add the correct bacteria.

No algae in dt. Tank is going smoothly. Mostly lps and easy sps right now. 20+ Acro frags coming in 2 weeks as it’s ready.

It’s late so lights are off. And I’m on iPad which I dont take pics on, but here’s the only pic I have on this device taken when first set up.

Wow!! that's amazing!
Can you please share more about your aquascape? did you make it yourself?

 

[stephanjupillat]

thanks!

some pics below

video of them eating from pellet feeder
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rg2WPU86teXNpYbs9

aquascape created by https://chandlerrocks.com/
they are a few hours away so they delivered and set it up.

 

[Seansea]

Sick tank bro

 

[Fanreef]

Hello,

I'm planning to have the stocking list below.

5 tangs. Yellow, Purple, Powder blue, White tale bristeltooth, White cheek.
5 Barlett's Anthias.
10 different kind Wrasses.
2 Clownfish and 2 Mandarins.

For anyone with experience with heavy stocked fish, will the above list be able to work in a 48*22*31 inch tank?

Thank you!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hirayama (1966) published a formula to calculate the load-bearing capacity of a small marine aquarium. The formula consists of two parts, one part represents the oxidizing capacity of the filter bed and one part represents the pollution by the animals.

Given that it was written in 1966, I'm not surprised that was stated, but it likely is not true in a reef tank. It may still be true in a fish only, but a reef tank takes up large amounts of ammonia without oxidation, and I don't see how any reefer can possibly calculate these things anyway.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Given that it was written in 1966, I'm not surprised that was stated, but it likely is not true in a reef tank. It may still be true in a fish only, but a reef tank takes up large amounts of ammonia without oxidation, and I don't see how any reefer can possibly calculate these things anyway.

What is shown by the formula is that not only the total weight is important, but also the weight of each individual organism, in this case the fish. It makes it clear that the question of how many fish can be kept cannot be answered simply and one must rely on the maximum weight that each species of fish can reach in captivity. In your opinion, this basic rule does not apply in a reef aquarium, right?
The same rules also apply in the case of a reef aquarium.
A reef aquarium is generally a low nutrient system with a limited to very limited load-bearing capacity. A living reef ensures a constant high consumption of organic carbon and CO2 production, resulting in an increasing need for the second and third pillars of support after each internal nutrient cycle, a reason why many corals live in symbiosis with much-needed photo-autotrophs. This is the opposite of what you claim because the lower the C/N ratio in the food chain, the greater the need for nitrate formation. It is therefore not true that there is less need for oxidation of ommonium in a reef aquarium, as you claim, on the contrary. Hence the limitations.
This is one of the reasons why keeping corals in a system with a high need for food (many fish) is not easy and requires a high mineralization capacity and a high production of balanced harvestable growth to purify the water. And then more capacity is needed than what is normally present in a contemporary reef aquarium.


In practice, any aquarium system can be conditioned with sufficient load-bearing capacity distributed over the three pillars while maintaining a sufficiently high natural C/N ratio, if sufficient space is provided for this.

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

Given that it was written in 1966, I'm not surprised that was stated, but it likely is not true in a reef tank. It may still be true in a fish only, but a reef tank takes up large amounts of ammonia without oxidation, and I don't see how any reefer can possibly calculate these things anyway.

Hello,

I'm planning to have the stocking list below.

5 tangs. Yellow, Purple, Powder blue, White tale bristeltooth, White cheek.
5 Barlett's Anthias.
10 different kind Wrasses.
2 Clownfish and 2 Mandarins.

For anyone with experience with heavy stocked fish, will the above list be able to work in a 48*22*31 inch tank?

Thank you!

5 Tangs?

 

[Seansea]

I stock heavy but i think u pushin it with 5 tangs. The yellow and purple will for sure murder each other because they are both zebramosa. Powder blues are notoriously territorial too. I would prob go yellow, bristletooth and maybe add the powder blue as your very last fish. 10 wrasses is dicey too. Try to aim for different species and shapes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In your opinion, this basic rule does not apply in a reef aquarium, right?
The same rules also apply in the case of a reef aquarium.

I said nothing about the ammonia source. My stated opinion is that reefers cannot possibly calculate the ammonia uptake capacity of their own reef tank, and that the idea that ammonia oxidation is the only sink is blatantly false.

 

[GARRIGA]

IMO, the max number of fish is determined by what happens in an emergency, such as a power failure, not what happens in ordinary operation where the numbers may successfully be far higher.

Exactly. Had a flow issue recently and lost two that had been with me past two years. I assumed oxygen depletion as smaller inhabitants didn't have issues. I've had these experiences in the past. One of these days I'm going to hook up am emergency pump pointed at the surface on a battery backup. How I solved it previously.

 

[GARRIGA]

BTW, 3" inch fat fish consumes more and produces more then three 1" skinny fishes. Filtration more about food in vs fish processing it, to some degree. Why for hobbyist no hard and fast rules yet in aquaculture they have this down to a science as to food in and oxygen provided.

 

[AcanSamDC]

In my humble opinion, if you aren’t obsessing over your quarantine procedures, you shouldn’t even begin to ponder the maximum amount of fish you can keep in one system. I have 110g four foot long tank. In the last four years I have lost all my fish twice to velvet. My tank is currently fallow as I recover from the second episode. For the third iteration of fish I’m obsessing over how few I can have and be happy. Like what is the least amount of fish I could possibly have and still love my tank. I dream of getting that quantity and getting them through QT and then enjoying years of no disease and no QT bc I am not adding any new fish.

Admittedly, I’m more of a coral guy. Any future fish additions will be working fish. I don’t aspire to keep coral any longer without tangs. They are absolutely invaluable workers. Fortunately, my purple and kole tangs pulled through the velvet. And that’s all you need for algae control. They have different shaped mouths and are a great pair in a 100g. After that I’ll put all my fish aspirations into wrasses. 2-3 that play well together and take care of coral pests. And that’s all I’d need to be a happy guy!

 

[Fanreef]

In my humble opinion, if you aren’t obsessing over your quarantine procedures, you shouldn’t even begin to ponder the maximum amount of fish you can keep in one system. I have 110g four foot long tank. In the last four years I have lost all my fish twice to velvet. My tank is currently fallow as I recover from the second episode. For the third iteration of fish I’m obsessing over how few I can have and be happy. Like what is the least amount of fish I could possibly have and still love my tank. I dream of getting that quantity and getting them through QT and then enjoying years of no disease and no QT bc I am not adding any new fish.

Admittedly, I’m more of a coral guy. Any future fish additions will be working fish. I don’t aspire to keep coral any longer without tangs. They are absolutely invaluable workers. Fortunately, my purple and kole tangs pulled through the velvet. And that’s all you need for algae control. They have different shaped mouths and are a great pair in a 100g. After that I’ll put all my fish aspirations into wrasses. 2-3 that play well together and take care of coral pests. And that’s all I’d need to be a happy guy!

Wow! I feel bad for the losses you had. you are definitely right, QT for a lot of fish is a must.

When your tank was fully stocked, what was your stocking list?

 

[AcanSamDC]

Wow! I feel bad for the losses you had. you are definitely right, QT for a lot of fish is a must.

When your tank was fully stocked, what was your stocking list?

I should clarify it’s all my fault. After the first velvet incident I set up a full 40 breeder QT system. I QT’d all the new additions and then thought I was done so I converted the QT system to a frag tank. Then, in a moment of insane dumbness after all of that, I bought a baby baby captive bred mandarin and dumped him in. They are hard to properly QT, both in that they don’t usually show disease and they don’t like copper. So I gambled and threw him in there. He didn’t accept food but my tank is also loaded with pods and I never once saw him pick at anything. Three mornings later he was dead. I was nervous but not too concerned. But that night I discovered my Kole tang swimming full on into my wave maker like Dory in the EAC. And I knew for sure velvet had returned to me.

That night I moved all the frags into my display (and now I’m dealing with some minor coral QT issues. Yay! A whole other topic there!) and broke that tank back down into a fish QT. In the morning when the lights came on I was ready. But no joke in just 12 hours the Kole tang was literally coated head to tailfin in white velvet. Had to pull every last rock out of my tank to catch all the fish, which were:

White Tail Bristlemouth (Kole) Tang
Purple Tang
3 x Bartlett’s Anthias
Mystery wrasse
3 x Blue/Green Chromis
Lawnmower Blenny
Red Scooter Blenny

All things considered, I think this was a pretty reasonable stocking list for a 110g reef with tons of rockwork.

I used Humblefish’s Hydrogen Peroxide procedure to knock the velvet off the fish. This 100% saved the Kole Tang. I was 110% sure he was a goner. But the red scooter didn’t make it through that treatment. It’s noted on Humblefish’s procedure as not a great fit for it. In hindsight I should have skipped him on that, but I don’t think they’re a great fit for copper so he was pretty much a lost cause anyway.

Two Bartlett’s, lawnmower and mystery wrasse didn’t make it through full copper treatment. Copper is done now but the last Anthias and one of the chromis are about to go from fin rot.

That leaves two Chromis and (thank the reef gods) my two tangs as the only ones that pulled through.

Also noting that the Kole Tang got a bacterial infection in copper so bad that his whole face fell off. Like all the skin as one giant bacterial blob. Again, I was sure he was a goner. But Metroplex helped him pull through that too and now he’s eating like a champ and back to teasing my purple (the bully) tang non stop by baiting him and then swimming into pipes he can’t fit in. I think Kole/Bristlemouth Tangs may be the most under rated fish in the whole hobby both for their value to a reef tank and their playful character.

I’m currently running kanaplex as fin rot seems to be the last thing lingering. After that I’ve got another seven weeks of fallow in the display before the tangs go back.

I’m thinking this time around I’m going to do a trio of Leopard Wrasse’s with them. I know they are challenging but I think those five fish would be enough to make me fish content and allow me to really focus on coral QT as I’m now terrified of all these bacterial situations that are becoming more common with coral acquisitions. I’m thinking about only buying coral twice a year in large hauls, filling this 40g breeder up with them, and then doing the full Kung Fu treatment before moving them into the display.

As for the leopards, I’m thinking the 40g should be able to handle their bio load having just housed the tangs. As soon as the medication is done I’m going to build up a three inch sand bed in the tank with the tangs so it’s really ready to make those leopards dang happy while I get them going on food. Once they are fat and happy I’m going to siphon the sand out and add it to my display the same day that I move them over. That should be exactly the right amount to get my display sand bed up to 3”. And then no more fish and a lifetime of getting these dang Euphyllia and Acros to behave as they should!

I should probably change my name to the paranoid reefer…

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I said nothing about the ammonia source. My stated opinion is that reefers cannot possibly calculate the ammonia uptake capacity of their own reef tank, and that the idea that ammonia oxidation is the only sink is blatantly false.

I completely agree with you that it is very difficult or impossible to determine the number of fish that one can keep, this becomes very clear when trying to apply Hirayama's formula (1966) and therefore asking the question is demonstrating unfelt basic knowledge about how the carrying capacity of a closed aquarium system is supported. And that not only ammonium oxidation (nitrification) is responsible for this was established long before 1966 and explained in my first response with a reference to "the carrying capacity". Nitrate formation is the natural end point for aerobic mineralization if everything proceeds correctly , depending on the local oxygen supply and consumption. I don't remember making any false statements about that. I have pointed out the incorrect assumption that in a reef aquarium less ammonium oxidation is required for the same bio-load, as claimed by some.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

In an aquarium with many fish and a high import of protein-rich food, the production of NH3 is therefore very high. Since in most reef aquariums a skimmer ensures a constant discharge of DOC, DOC necessary to support the first pillar, the oxidation of ammonia ( nitrification) is becoming an increasingly important factor to reduce the NH3>NH4 present, especially since in reef aquaria the third pillar is usually insufficient built up.
although the third pillar may be the key to success.
Photo-autotrophic growth limits the need for nitrification and restores the C/N balance of the internal food chain, and restores alkalinity if growing on nitrate. Water is filtered and stripped of all nutrients by new growth . Managing a high input, high output system is based on maintaining the growth rate needed to clear the water and by harvesting ( export) new growth in time .
This is not possible using filtration methods where organic waste is removed and ammonia must be oxidized. The natural denitrification rate and nitrogen export is mainly supported by anaerobic heterotrofic growth needing organic waste. This way nitrate build up can not be avoided ( Which is a good thing, considdering the situation)

If the intention is to demonstrate the diversity on a reef, consideration will first have to be given to how the necessary load-bearing capacity can be supported, and that requires the necessary basic knowledge and especially of the side effects of the resources used.