The importance of stability

[RBursek]

People without auto-topoffs are wasting there time and asking for trouble. One of the first additions to any tank.[/QUOTE]
Everyone is entitled to there opinion but this one is IMO, way out there somewhere.

 

[beaslbob]

I hadn't seen this thread until now and its an excellent point that the two concepts are different, and it is a much more detailed explanation of what I was trying to say to Dave. nice thread, well writen beasllbob!!:wink:

Aww gosh. suckie dern. farm out. {blush}

Actually it's probably just my old engineering background coming out.

I hope it will generate some thoughts. I have seen some confused looks when asking very very well respected people in the hobby the simple question "by stable I presume you mean constant". like they had never thought of that before.


Now I gotta go check out the long ignored thread.

my .02

 

[Alpha Aquaculture]

Very good info all. I have never run an ATO because I'm afraid of the whole automated thing causing big problems in the end. If you top up with RO on a set routine, isnt that stability, even if its only every other day as I do on some of my tanks??

 

[spotted jawfish]

I run auto top off and for me is very important to mantein the proper salinity in my tank without fluctuations.

 

[88K5]

Great thread, full of usable info.

 

[Troylee]

I'm seeing alot of confusion on the top off thing here is what I have exp. Depending on tank size makes this a big factor... When I had my 500 set up and would top off daily with 3 or 4 gallons I never saw any I'll effects... Now my solana was a different story if I went a day with out topping off and them added a gallon or so water I noticed problems like rtn. Even my new tank and 220gal if water volume I lose close to 5 gal a day I was manually topping off when I get home from work 5 gal a day and I would lose a frag a week to stn or rtn, since getting my ato hooked up I haven't lost one yet!!!! So IMO. Yes it plays a role especially in smaller tanks the sg. Can flucuate big time since your water volume is so small.... Btw. One other thing I have noticed to help with ph and stuff is to always buffer your top off water I know most people don't and I had a tank I couldn't keep the ph up for nothing it was driving me nuts!!!! Then a friend asked me" do you buffer your top off water" I said no... Once I started doing this my ph has risen and stays pretty stable for the most part... I lose 5 to 7 gal a day with my fans "evaporative cooling" so I have came to the conclusion yes it plays a role.... That's what I have exp. I'm sure others have different exp....
Great thread guys, keep it up...

 

[beaslbob]

I can understand how an ato can maintain more constant environments.

But one thing to consider is the possibility of a drain failure either through blockage or siphon break. Under that condition the sump lowers, the ato kicks in and empties the top off water into the sump. Probably causing a display flood.

Some very awesome tanks like borneman's and oregon reefs have suffered that fate where the sg went down to dangerous levels (1.013 or so) and all corals were lost. I believe thase systems had drains so at least the fish room was not flooded.

As long as you can get it adjusted what do you guy think of some kind of drip system adjust to replace evaporative water? Would that be safer?

my .02

 

[chenwon54]

Ato...

In my tank I kept Top off as simple as possible. I have RO thoughtout my entire house. Simply ran a Line from the Main RO to my tank, Drilled a hole put in a simple float switch at the sump water level. It keeps SG at a constant level. I only have to account for the very small amount that is skimmed out/salt creep. Which i barely notice.

Has anyone ever had a simple float switch fail? Its been there for 3 years and never a single issue.

My suggestion if you have access to RO directly to your tank.

 

[Troylee]

Been running my same old jbj ato. For a few years now with dual float switches... Never had a problem... I use a resivior thou so I can buffer my water to the correct ph level... If it ever decided to stick it's only 10gal in a 220 so it wouldn't hurt it to bad... Now a ro hooked up straight to the tank could be a major problem if the float stuck for some reason... Good reason for more than one float switch...

 

[Paul_N]

Been running my same old jbj ato. For a few years now with dual float switches... Never had a problem...

+1 Love the jbj ATO. I got mine used also

 

[RBursek]

Short runs on a RO/DI use up DI resin faster do to RO TDS creep each time it starts up.

 

[Alpha Aquaculture]

I can understand how an ato can maintain more constant environments.

But one thing to consider is the possibility of a drain failure either through blockage or siphon break. Under that condition the sump lowers, the ato kicks in and empties the top off water into the sump. Probably causing a display flood.

Some very awesome tanks like borneman's and oregon reefs have suffered that fate where the sg went down to dangerous levels (1.013 or so) and all corals were lost. I believe thase systems had drains so at least the fish room was not flooded.

As long as you can get it adjusted what do you guy think of some kind of drip system adjust to replace evaporative water? Would that be safer?

my .02

That's exactly what I'm worried about! But constant salinity is something I should strive for. I have an ato wired in and everything, just have to set the water level and glue the float in.

Been running my same old jbj ato. For a few years now with dual float switches... Never had a problem... I use a resivior thou so I can buffer my water to the correct ph level... If it ever decided to stick it's only 10gal in a 220 so it wouldn't hurt it to bad... Now a ro hooked up straight to the tank could be a major problem if the float stuck for some reason... Good reason for more than one float switch...

I think you bring up a good point. I can both keep my salinity constant and minimize problems..... by instead of topping off to the tank once daily... top off to the ato reservoir once daily... and keep the ato reservoir volume fairly low (only a day or two's worth of RO). If a malfunction occured with the ato, it would be the same as topping off once daily. Now thats a win win, thanks guys. I'm hooking it up asap.

troylee: What buffer do you use for your RO water?

_________________________________________________


Next stability topic...

How do you keep your temps stable? Mine fluctuate by 3 degrees or so(76-79F). I try and keep my room temps close to tank temps to avoid problems (room around 75-77). I have two digital temp monitors for redundancy. Also what heater do you use, what are the efficiencies of these? Any chiller info or cooling/summertime advice?

 

[Alpha Aquaculture]

Short runs on a RO/DI use up DI resin faster do to RO TDS creep each time it starts up.

That makes sense! I would reccomend buying a large 100 gallon irrigation-type container and using that to make RO. Then run tubing and have a pump that pumps it to the ato container/tank. A large satellite RO tank. I like letting my RO run for a day and a half and not having to think about it for another few weeks.

 

[stunreefer]

Some very awesome tanks like borneman's and oregon reefs have suffered that fate where the sg went down to dangerous levels (1.013 or so) and all corals were lost. I believe thase systems had drains so at least the fish room was not flooded.

I use an ELOS Osmolater (similar to Tunze) for an ATO device. It uses a float switch as a sensor, and has a (redundant) microprocessor built into the controller to prevent failure. In case all else fails, my ATO resevoir is only about 15 gals, so if it should pump the whole thing into the sump, the SG wouldn't lower enough to harm anything. IMHO a small resevoir is your best option for a failsafe... it can only pump so much!

As long as you can get it adjusted what do you guy think of some kind of drip system adjust to replace evaporative water? Would that be safer?

I used a drip system in the past, but was always tinkering with it. As the water level drops in your resevoir the head pressure changes which alters the drip rate (constantly). It works, but really is a pain over time.

Has anyone ever had a simple float switch fail?

Yes, but if maintained and you keep salt creep and mineral build up off you shouldn't have an issue. It's been running without issues for three years so you're doing something right

As troylee mentioned though, I couldn't sleep well with an RO/DI source connected directly to my tank. If something were to fail with that valve, you could turn your SW tank FW pretty easily.

 

[shred5]

Sorry,
We have a Quantum Meter calibrated with a 100' cable and take readings at the same patch reef every time we go out to our live rock/coral farm, (a couple times a week) and have been taking them there since 2003...I have NEVER gotten the same reading at the same patch reef with my sensor in the exact same place at the same time of day...I always hit it at 2:30PM..and If I am early..I wait.. If I am late..I wait until another day.

Light is NEVER, a stable factor in the wild, never the same from day-to-day or hour-by-hour.

Light attenuation or extinction is greatly effected not only by passing clouds and/or moisture in the atmosphere,...but more over by the constantly changing size and shape of the lenses, (the ever changing water surface), not to mention TDS that are also in a constant state of flux.


I can't even get the meter to stop jumping from it's lowest to highest readings on the calmest of days in situ.

I can take the exact same meter back to our lab,... put it into any one of our 14 systems with as much surface motion as I dare to implement within a closed system I ...CAN ALWAYS get a stable reading even with lights moving, via fans and light movers.

Not trying to be a Know it all jerk... I just live in closer proximity to a real reef to most reefers do, and I scrutinize the differences, (between captive and wild conditions) all the time...with a vengeance.

Alkalinity+Calcium levels stay the same only...temp changes all the time, salinity fluctuates on a yearly cycle,. dietary intake is never the same due to seasonal cycles of nature.

one example; every year on one evening coral will spawn here in the Florida Keys,(there are a few different spawning events associated with different species.. however) on those evenings...when the water column fills with sperm and egg packets..or in the case of brooders, gametes...the fish, squid sharks,everything!.. goes crazy consuming all of the small protein bundles in front of them.

A week before the weren't eating any coral larva... there wasn't any in the water column..... they were eating something else.

Our little closed, high nutrient, bonsai systems are nothing like the wild on so many levels,...I believe it dangerous to compare the two.

Mother Nature doesn't have to worry about potentiometric hydrogen ion concentration...(we do), her system is big enough and constantly receiving light somewhere.-Dave

Don't get me wrong..stability is UBER important our closed systems...but not because your animals were living in, that before they were collected or aquaculture.

Well most of what you said is true?

While light obviously fluctuates.

Ph, calcium, alkalinity does not on most reefs.

While some reefs temps and salinity can fluctuate those where they do not have the highest diversity. Those where it fluctuates the most have the lowest diversity and the most hardy corals. That should tell you something?

Yea there are some areas where there is upwelling or areas where fresh water and run off hit the ocean,, large tidal areas or wave action. These can change temps rather drastically and in some case salinity.

While even though yearly temps can change in most cases they do it slow which really is still in my opinion is stability.