The Angel Lovers Thread
- Thread starter Aquaph8
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OP
OP
Aquaph8
Love The Fish
Looks like HLLE to me. There's a few theories about what causes it but really nobody knows for sure. One is dust from activated carbon use, another is nutrition issues and last is stray voltage. IMO, they are probably all right in one way or another.
OP
OP
Aquaph8
Love The Fish
I've honestly never got it to reverse but some claim they have. IMO the best you can do is attempt to solve the problem that caused it. Make sure you use a quality carbon and don't let it get too ground up with water flow, feed a variety of quality foods and make sure your tank has a grounding probe.
Newb_reefer1
Active Member
I use sand in my fuge it works great , I was thinking about getting miracle mud but the more I talked to people about it it seemed more like it was more expensive for no visibly greater effects than live sand. I believe it's like 20$ For a jar and you need more than one to fill a good sized fuge and apparently you have to replace it after awhile because the nutrients get depleted or something like that. My vote was ultimately no, it seemed to costly to maintain and I didn't see any solid evidence it worked better than sand.
Thank you for the info. I also thought of doing the sand. I just want to use the extra chamber in my sump for something useful. My sump drains down both ends and returns in the middle. Skimmer on the left and nothing on the right. Small amount of rock. And tried the chaeto with no luck. Died and got all gross in there. Red slime I think.
Derek,
you need to boost the nutrition on this fish. Brine shrimp has NO nutritional value and is a leading cause to the fading color on your fish.
I would start soaking all food in vitamins and selcon for HUFA support..
I would also read this article on what good nutrition is:
Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition Rev 1
you need to boost the nutrition on this fish. Brine shrimp has NO nutritional value and is a leading cause to the fading color on your fish.
I would start soaking all food in vitamins and selcon for HUFA support..
I would also read this article on what good nutrition is:
Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition Rev 1
impur
GO DUCKS!!!
My Potters had that but more on her nose area, but same thing. I soak her foods in Brightwell's Angelixer, Vitamarin-M, and also feed Hikari Mega-Marine Angel food along with a smorgasbord of other frozen foods, and I removed carbon. It took about 6-8 months to go away.
I got another good pic her yesterday
I got another good pic her yesterday
So I went to my LFS trying to find this stuff. They had other stuff. But not these things. I will add different foods for Angela that are more nutritious for them than the brine and mysis. And I bought some Vitality by seachem. Hope this a all beneficial.
Derek,
If you can find frozen food ocean nutrition angel formula, get it...it has sponge in it which is a primary diet of angelfish...also, if you can find Rods Food this is a great all around food choice. I use the Herbivore or H blend.
I use both for all of my angels which are featured in this video:
Part2 375 gallon : Angel Heaven - YouTube
If you can find frozen food ocean nutrition angel formula, get it...it has sponge in it which is a primary diet of angelfish...also, if you can find Rods Food this is a great all around food choice. I use the Herbivore or H blend.
I use both for all of my angels which are featured in this video:
Part2 375 gallon : Angel Heaven - YouTube
ReefFrenzy
Shrimp Pimp
You asked "What are the cures?" This appears to be a subject of debate since many say HLLE can be stopped but not reversed. I am not convinced either way, but when my tang was showing signs of HLLE while in a QT tank for 9 week he started to show signs due to poor water quality. A year later after going back into the display all evidence of any HLLE is gone and he is back to normal. However, this was hardly a severe case. I have done a lot of research and experimenting trying to find the proper balance of nutrition, diversity, and palatability, especially for hard to keep fishes to help combat some of the nutritional deficiencies encountered in a home aquarium.
I would suggest a varied diet rich in nutrients, and marine based ingredients. If you can get him eating high grade seaweed that is very dense in vitamins and anti-oxidants as well. Obviously I am biased and think fresher is better, such as with our probiotic foods so I cannot help but throw it out there for the sake of the fish's long term health.
Shameless plug: Currently our foods are used by one of the most elite fish collectors in the hobby such as "Humaguy" on RC. Last week marine biologist Karen Brittain posted a blog about her 130 day old captive bred angels being fed our food as a "first choice" non-live food. I'm throwing it out there cause this is an Angel thread and the blog post is a pretty amazing advancement with these juveniles making it this far.
Karen's Blog: "Raising Purple Mask Angelfish" Rising Tide Conservation Updates: Larval Rearing of the Purple Mask Angelfish
I am not a big fan of terrestrial veggies in a marine diet, however articles have mentioned that broccoli flowers are rich in Vitamin A&D and when blanched (to aid digestion of the cellulose) offer benefits.
This article demonstrates what I am referring to:
Dietary Control Of HLLE In Blue Tangs
By Steve Collins, Curator Indianapolis Zoo-Aquarium
The occurrence of head and lateral line erosion, (HLLE) is a common problem with certain reef fish, particularly tangs and surgeonfish. We experienced and epidemic amoung our blue tang (Acanthurus coeruleus) population six years ago,(1989), in our 25,00 gallon reef exhibit here at the Indianapolis Zoo-Aquarium. Other surgeonfish were affected, but the angelfish in the exhibit were not.
Water quality was dismissed as a likely cause of the problem. Good water quality was maintained by a combination of use of sand filters, ozone, and periodic water exchanges with saltwater mixed from Instant Ocean sea salt. We do not use activated carbon. Normal nitrate levels were maintained in the range of 15 to 20 milligrams per liter ,(mg/l), Nitrate Nitrogen , (N03-N). pH averaged 8.25 and salinity was 32 parts per thousand, or a specific gravity of 1.023. At the onset of the HLLE, salinity was dropped to inhibit parasite reproduction, in case this was the cause. The erosion continued and salinity was eventually brought back up to 1.023.
In reviewing other possible causes for theis malady we next focused on possible dietary deficiencies, because no obvious pathogens were found. Our fish were receiving a varied diet including romaine lettuce and spinach. Initially we tried elevating the level of vitamin C by incorporating a supplement into a gelatin based food, but this had no effect. We next considered supplementing the level of vitamin A. According to the Applied Nutrition and Diet Therapy, page 852, "One of the most important functions of vitamin A is to maintain the integrity of the epithelial cells....As a result, surfaces of the skin and membranes lining all passages that open to the exterior of the body, as well as glands and their ducts, are susceptible to disease." This was the basis for trying increased amounts of vitamin A after the vitamin C supplement by itself failed to produce results. It was our feeling that the laining of the lateral line ducts had deteriorated.
We were concerned with the possible toxicity of high vitamin A levels that has been reported for certain animals. Upon reviewing the nutritional value of different types of lettuce, we found them to be very low in nutrients and began researching the nutritional value of other green vegetables. Spinach appeared to be higher than lettuce, but it does not hold up well in sea water. Carrots were found to be a good natural food, but they had to be shredded and were quite messy to feed. Still, we fed carrots solely for six to eight weeks and observed a resolution of the HLLE. A more complete literature review made broccoli an obvious choice. It is well balanced in many vitamins in addition to the high level of vitamin A, and also has other features that make it acceptable. It holds up very well in the aquarium. Many fish like the flowerettes when they are first added. Only the larger fish could break open the woody layer on the stalks, but once opened small fish feed on the softer pulp material. We replaced the carrots with broccoli, and we are currently using it as a well-balanced maintenance diet.
After replacing the lettuce diet with first carrots and then fresh broccoli, the HLLE improved to the extent that only a few scars remained on the most severely affected fish. After nearly eight years in the exhibit, most of the original batch of blue tangs are still alive. Broccoli, supplemented with peas and other prepared foods, dominates the diet. No HLLE sypmtoms are evident in any of the fish in the exhibit.
***END***
Whatever food you choose, I would recommend you follow the advice by previous posters and feed a varied diet and also take advantage of the beneficial food soaks on the market.
Since this is an Angel lovers thread, I figured I would post a few pics of ours...Just kidding...LOL. These images are courtesy of Ted, AKA "Humaguy."
This is a screenshot of Karen's P. venusta little guy, when they were still eating live feeds.
I would suggest a varied diet rich in nutrients, and marine based ingredients. If you can get him eating high grade seaweed that is very dense in vitamins and anti-oxidants as well. Obviously I am biased and think fresher is better, such as with our probiotic foods so I cannot help but throw it out there for the sake of the fish's long term health.
Shameless plug: Currently our foods are used by one of the most elite fish collectors in the hobby such as "Humaguy" on RC. Last week marine biologist Karen Brittain posted a blog about her 130 day old captive bred angels being fed our food as a "first choice" non-live food. I'm throwing it out there cause this is an Angel thread and the blog post is a pretty amazing advancement with these juveniles making it this far.
Karen's Blog: "Raising Purple Mask Angelfish" Rising Tide Conservation Updates: Larval Rearing of the Purple Mask Angelfish
I am not a big fan of terrestrial veggies in a marine diet, however articles have mentioned that broccoli flowers are rich in Vitamin A&D and when blanched (to aid digestion of the cellulose) offer benefits.
This article demonstrates what I am referring to:
Dietary Control Of HLLE In Blue Tangs
By Steve Collins, Curator Indianapolis Zoo-Aquarium
The occurrence of head and lateral line erosion, (HLLE) is a common problem with certain reef fish, particularly tangs and surgeonfish. We experienced and epidemic amoung our blue tang (Acanthurus coeruleus) population six years ago,(1989), in our 25,00 gallon reef exhibit here at the Indianapolis Zoo-Aquarium. Other surgeonfish were affected, but the angelfish in the exhibit were not.
Water quality was dismissed as a likely cause of the problem. Good water quality was maintained by a combination of use of sand filters, ozone, and periodic water exchanges with saltwater mixed from Instant Ocean sea salt. We do not use activated carbon. Normal nitrate levels were maintained in the range of 15 to 20 milligrams per liter ,(mg/l), Nitrate Nitrogen , (N03-N). pH averaged 8.25 and salinity was 32 parts per thousand, or a specific gravity of 1.023. At the onset of the HLLE, salinity was dropped to inhibit parasite reproduction, in case this was the cause. The erosion continued and salinity was eventually brought back up to 1.023.
In reviewing other possible causes for theis malady we next focused on possible dietary deficiencies, because no obvious pathogens were found. Our fish were receiving a varied diet including romaine lettuce and spinach. Initially we tried elevating the level of vitamin C by incorporating a supplement into a gelatin based food, but this had no effect. We next considered supplementing the level of vitamin A. According to the Applied Nutrition and Diet Therapy, page 852, "One of the most important functions of vitamin A is to maintain the integrity of the epithelial cells....As a result, surfaces of the skin and membranes lining all passages that open to the exterior of the body, as well as glands and their ducts, are susceptible to disease." This was the basis for trying increased amounts of vitamin A after the vitamin C supplement by itself failed to produce results. It was our feeling that the laining of the lateral line ducts had deteriorated.
We were concerned with the possible toxicity of high vitamin A levels that has been reported for certain animals. Upon reviewing the nutritional value of different types of lettuce, we found them to be very low in nutrients and began researching the nutritional value of other green vegetables. Spinach appeared to be higher than lettuce, but it does not hold up well in sea water. Carrots were found to be a good natural food, but they had to be shredded and were quite messy to feed. Still, we fed carrots solely for six to eight weeks and observed a resolution of the HLLE. A more complete literature review made broccoli an obvious choice. It is well balanced in many vitamins in addition to the high level of vitamin A, and also has other features that make it acceptable. It holds up very well in the aquarium. Many fish like the flowerettes when they are first added. Only the larger fish could break open the woody layer on the stalks, but once opened small fish feed on the softer pulp material. We replaced the carrots with broccoli, and we are currently using it as a well-balanced maintenance diet.
After replacing the lettuce diet with first carrots and then fresh broccoli, the HLLE improved to the extent that only a few scars remained on the most severely affected fish. After nearly eight years in the exhibit, most of the original batch of blue tangs are still alive. Broccoli, supplemented with peas and other prepared foods, dominates the diet. No HLLE sypmtoms are evident in any of the fish in the exhibit.
***END***
Whatever food you choose, I would recommend you follow the advice by previous posters and feed a varied diet and also take advantage of the beneficial food soaks on the market.
Since this is an Angel lovers thread, I figured I would post a few pics of ours...Just kidding...LOL. These images are courtesy of Ted, AKA "Humaguy."
This is a screenshot of Karen's P. venusta little guy, when they were still eating live feeds.
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Good stuff. I appreciate all the information. The ocean nutrition angel formula is actually one of the two new frozen foods I picked up. I'm glad I picked it up. It's a do not thAw food. Not sure why. But they all picked it apart. Front the coral beauty to the dragon goby.
Saltgator
Tang Keeper
You asked "What are the cures?" This appears to be a subject of debate since many say HLLE can be stopped but not reversed. I am not convinced either way, but when my tang was showing signs of HLLE while in a QT tank for 9 week he started to show signs due to poor water quality. A year later after going back into the display all evidence of any HLLE is gone and he is back to normal. However, this was hardly a severe case. I have done a lot of research and experimenting trying to find the proper balance of nutrition, diversity, and palatability, especially for hard to keep fishes to help combat some of the nutritional deficiencies encountered in a home aquarium.
I would suggest a varied diet rich in nutrients, and marine based ingredients. If you can get him eating high grade seaweed that is very dense in vitamins and anti-oxidants as well. Obviously I am biased and think fresher is better, such as with our probiotic foods so I cannot help but throw it out there for the sake of the fish's long term health.
Shameless plug: Currently our foods are used by one of the most elite fish collectors in the hobby such as "Humaguy" on RC. Last week marine biologist Karen Brittain posted a blog about her 130 day old captive bred angels being fed our food as a "first choice" non-live food. I'm throwing it out there cause this is an Angel thread and the blog post is a pretty amazing advancement with these juveniles making it this far.
Karen's Blog: "Raising Purple Mask Angelfish" Rising Tide Conservation Updates: Larval Rearing of the Purple Mask Angelfish
I am not a big fan of terrestrial veggies in a marine diet, however articles have mentioned that broccoli flowers are rich in Vitamin A&D and when blanched (to aid digestion of the cellulose) offer benefits.
This article demonstrates what I am referring to:
Dietary Control Of HLLE In Blue Tangs
By Steve Collins, Curator Indianapolis Zoo-Aquarium
The occurrence of head and lateral line erosion, (HLLE) is a common problem with certain reef fish, particularly tangs and surgeonfish. We experienced and epidemic amoung our blue tang (Acanthurus coeruleus) population six years ago,(1989), in our 25,00 gallon reef exhibit here at the Indianapolis Zoo-Aquarium. Other surgeonfish were affected, but the angelfish in the exhibit were not.
Water quality was dismissed as a likely cause of the problem. Good water quality was maintained by a combination of use of sand filters, ozone, and periodic water exchanges with saltwater mixed from Instant Ocean sea salt. We do not use activated carbon. Normal nitrate levels were maintained in the range of 15 to 20 milligrams per liter ,(mg/l), Nitrate Nitrogen , (N03-N). pH averaged 8.25 and salinity was 32 parts per thousand, or a specific gravity of 1.023. At the onset of the HLLE, salinity was dropped to inhibit parasite reproduction, in case this was the cause. The erosion continued and salinity was eventually brought back up to 1.023.
In reviewing other possible causes for theis malady we next focused on possible dietary deficiencies, because no obvious pathogens were found. Our fish were receiving a varied diet including romaine lettuce and spinach. Initially we tried elevating the level of vitamin C by incorporating a supplement into a gelatin based food, but this had no effect. We next considered supplementing the level of vitamin A. According to the Applied Nutrition and Diet Therapy, page 852, "One of the most important functions of vitamin A is to maintain the integrity of the epithelial cells....As a result, surfaces of the skin and membranes lining all passages that open to the exterior of the body, as well as glands and their ducts, are susceptible to disease." This was the basis for trying increased amounts of vitamin A after the vitamin C supplement by itself failed to produce results. It was our feeling that the laining of the lateral line ducts had deteriorated.
We were concerned with the possible toxicity of high vitamin A levels that has been reported for certain animals. Upon reviewing the nutritional value of different types of lettuce, we found them to be very low in nutrients and began researching the nutritional value of other green vegetables. Spinach appeared to be higher than lettuce, but it does not hold up well in sea water. Carrots were found to be a good natural food, but they had to be shredded and were quite messy to feed. Still, we fed carrots solely for six to eight weeks and observed a resolution of the HLLE. A more complete literature review made broccoli an obvious choice. It is well balanced in many vitamins in addition to the high level of vitamin A, and also has other features that make it acceptable. It holds up very well in the aquarium. Many fish like the flowerettes when they are first added. Only the larger fish could break open the woody layer on the stalks, but once opened small fish feed on the softer pulp material. We replaced the carrots with broccoli, and we are currently using it as a well-balanced maintenance diet.
After replacing the lettuce diet with first carrots and then fresh broccoli, the HLLE improved to the extent that only a few scars remained on the most severely affected fish. After nearly eight years in the exhibit, most of the original batch of blue tangs are still alive. Broccoli, supplemented with peas and other prepared foods, dominates the diet. No HLLE sypmtoms are evident in any of the fish in the exhibit.
***END***
Whatever food you choose, I would recommend you follow the advice by previous posters and feed a varied diet and also take advantage of the beneficial food soaks on the market.
Since this is an Angel lovers thread, I figured I would post a few pics of ours...Just kidding...LOL. These images are courtesy of Ted, AKA "Humaguy."
This is a screenshot of Karen's P. venusta little guy, when they were still eating live feeds.
Great info. I'll be in touch about food, wanting to try reversing my black long nose tang's HLLE. Thank goodness my regal angel doesn't have HLLE.
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KologneKoral
Community Member
Larry, very kewl infos. Thanks for the shameless plug! Good to know.
Derek,
it looks like a fungal infection or HLLE (is it a type of poisoning?). As you said it is there a while, HLLE sounds the culprit, but it looks like it has stopped spreading. There is no real cure, as, once the tissues are damaged, they can not fully regenerate. You are left with a scar. Once it stops, the fish typically live a normal life, assuming conditions remain optimal.
From my experience with HLLE and carbons, there is a clear connection, but the actual cause is not clear. Water quality does play a role generally, being a source of stress. As noted from the public aquarium, water quality didn't seem to be apparent, but, then, we do not know what was actually tested and what levels were involved. I find that any nutrient levels above NO3 5.0ppm and PO4 0.2ppm is too high for many fish. Exactly why can one only guess. More pathogens/irritants in the water?
I did a series of tests with carbons on a group of tangs (Z. xanthurum) and was shocked at the number of carbons that seemed to cause or exacerbate HLLE. I won't mention the loosers, but the best carbon was the Norit ROX 0.8, which you can get from a few different companies around the planet. (BRS offers it, as example). I can't recommend it highly enough. It was developed for the food and medical industries and is absolute top quality, regularly tested and controlled, and literally dust-free.
Nutrition plays a role in any illness. Being one who does not feed terrestrial vegetables, I cannot say if they are actually a potential danger for marine fish. In comparison they are very heavy in cellulose, which may impact intestines. Even humans cannot digest cellulose, but our digestive systems are adapted to take advantage of this ballast. For fish, this is not the case. If diet is a key, then we probably have two different vectors for Acanthurids and Pomacanthids. Their diets are quite different, despite both being heavily oreinted to alga, especially for the larger angels (sponges contain many interesting ingredients!) This may explain why we see only one group effected in a mixed tank population. Something missing (or insufficient) in the diet makes the fish more suceptable.
I suppose the bottom line is, your fish will not truly heal, but he is not in danger at this point. Optimising diet will certainly help, but do not over do it. ODing on vitamins can be very damaging! I use them sparingly and try to simply offer the best foods I can. Yes, the Angel Diet is in my freezer and soup algae is fed daily (my annularis loves the stuff!) Spirulina flakes are relished, although pellets are not very loved. May be the texture. Angels seem to prefer softer foods, despite that beak-like mouth.
For the record, I have never had HLLE simply happen in a reef tank. Only in my tests did I experience the malady (in the last 20 some years). Could this be something to do with a reef tank vs a FOWLR? My test tank was essentially just that.
Hope this helps you a bit further.
j.
Derek,
it looks like a fungal infection or HLLE (is it a type of poisoning?). As you said it is there a while, HLLE sounds the culprit, but it looks like it has stopped spreading. There is no real cure, as, once the tissues are damaged, they can not fully regenerate. You are left with a scar. Once it stops, the fish typically live a normal life, assuming conditions remain optimal.
From my experience with HLLE and carbons, there is a clear connection, but the actual cause is not clear. Water quality does play a role generally, being a source of stress. As noted from the public aquarium, water quality didn't seem to be apparent, but, then, we do not know what was actually tested and what levels were involved. I find that any nutrient levels above NO3 5.0ppm and PO4 0.2ppm is too high for many fish. Exactly why can one only guess. More pathogens/irritants in the water?
I did a series of tests with carbons on a group of tangs (Z. xanthurum) and was shocked at the number of carbons that seemed to cause or exacerbate HLLE. I won't mention the loosers, but the best carbon was the Norit ROX 0.8, which you can get from a few different companies around the planet. (BRS offers it, as example). I can't recommend it highly enough. It was developed for the food and medical industries and is absolute top quality, regularly tested and controlled, and literally dust-free.
Nutrition plays a role in any illness. Being one who does not feed terrestrial vegetables, I cannot say if they are actually a potential danger for marine fish. In comparison they are very heavy in cellulose, which may impact intestines. Even humans cannot digest cellulose, but our digestive systems are adapted to take advantage of this ballast. For fish, this is not the case. If diet is a key, then we probably have two different vectors for Acanthurids and Pomacanthids. Their diets are quite different, despite both being heavily oreinted to alga, especially for the larger angels (sponges contain many interesting ingredients!) This may explain why we see only one group effected in a mixed tank population. Something missing (or insufficient) in the diet makes the fish more suceptable.
I suppose the bottom line is, your fish will not truly heal, but he is not in danger at this point. Optimising diet will certainly help, but do not over do it. ODing on vitamins can be very damaging! I use them sparingly and try to simply offer the best foods I can. Yes, the Angel Diet is in my freezer and soup algae is fed daily (my annularis loves the stuff!) Spirulina flakes are relished, although pellets are not very loved. May be the texture. Angels seem to prefer softer foods, despite that beak-like mouth.
For the record, I have never had HLLE simply happen in a reef tank. Only in my tests did I experience the malady (in the last 20 some years). Could this be something to do with a reef tank vs a FOWLR? My test tank was essentially just that.
Hope this helps you a bit further.
j.
Mattiejay6
Valuable Member
KologneKoral good read. Thank you for the info. Definately helps. Having this tank up for only 13 months I'm still learning all the don't do's. I was running a lot of carbon in the beginning through my cannister and a reactor. I did stop using the cannister altogether maybe 3-4 months ago. Too mamy people said cannisters were a no no.
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