Tank transfer logistics

[Lost in the Sauce]

That should never happen

There are volumes to read on R2R alone about this Exact thing happening. It makes perfect sense..

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

Perhaps their experience is based on deep sand beds with areas of hypoxia or H2SO4….?

Maybe. But so is mine. I’ve done it so many times I’ve lost count. Maybe 100? I have no idea how many times I’ve done it.

H2SO4 is a pretty reactive gas. Move the sand around in the couple of inches of water left in the tank, then pile it up and let it sit, and most of that H2SO4 will be gone. Here’s the other thing…most of whatever H2SO4 that is left in the sand will just be where it was in the 1st place. Buried in the bed. The only H2SO4 that should really be interacting with the tank water will be what little is in the top few mm of the sand.

And if you’re running the filtration, skimmer, etc, that little bit will react with the air and water and be a non-factor.

Would you be in trouble if you had a huge build-up of H2SO4 and then turned your whole bed over with all of your animals still in the tank? You could be. But doing it the way I do it is pretty risk free.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

There are volumes to read on R2R alone about this Exact thing happening. It makes perfect sense..

Then people made some mistake in how they executed it, or are not correctly diagnosing why they had a wipe-out.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Then people made some mistake in how they executed it, or are not correctly diagnosing why they had a wipe-out.

Common denominator, not cleaning sand during a transfer and overloading a biofilter.

 

[Jedi1199]

Then people made some mistake in how they executed it, or are not correctly diagnosing why they had a wipe-out.

Not correctly diagnosing why they had a wipeout.

This is exactly my feeling on this. I've moved many tanks in my time, never had an issue.

I very strongly agree that the ones who did, had issues for another reason that a dirty sand bed.

 

[Jedi1199]

Common denominator, not cleaning sand during a transfer and overloading a biofilter.

How? Can you explain?

 

[Jedi1199]

After re-reading this thread top to bottom, I have not yet seen anyone post any verifiable evidence that reusing a dirty sand bed is detrimental.

I do see at least one instance where someone posted a link to a build where dirty sand was used with zero influence on the transfer.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

How? Can you explain?

Everything in your aquarium is covered in your biofilter, and we can probably agree, that small particulates of detritis filtered down into the sand where they are trapped.

These are not decaying at the same speed everything else is. There is a massive organic source that when dug up and added to a new aquarium without a stable intact bio filter, or overloading what is added, ammonia rises faster than the tank can cycle it and the tank experiences a "crash".

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

After re-reading this thread top to bottom, I have not yet seen anyone post any verifiable evidence that reusing a dirty sand bed is detrimental.

I do see at least one instance where someone posted a link to a build where dirty sand was used with zero influence on the transfer.

Go sirens 18 years reading brandons "work threads"

Experience and recording events as they happen mean a lot.

 

[Jedi1199]

Everything in your aquarium is covered in your biofilter, and we can probably agree, that small particulates of detritis filtered down into the sand where they are trapped.

These are not decaying at the same speed everything else is. There is a massive organic source that when dug up and added to a new aquarium without a stable intact bio filter, or overloading what is added, ammonia rises faster than the tank can cycle it and the tank experiences a "crash".

This theory seems sound.... EXCEPT.. when I stir up my sand every couple months, effectively releasing all of this "trapped particulate matter" My system does not "crash"

 

[Jedi1199]

Go sirens 18 years reading brandons "work threads"

Experience and recording events as they happen mean a lot.

I am NOT saying that cleaning the sand does not work. The evidence that it does work is clear and verifiable.

I am stating that the belief that you "must" clean the sand or suffer a catastrophic loss is false. I have personal experience and 2 verifiable work threads to prove it.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

This theory seems sound.... EXCEPT.. when I stir up my sand every couple months, effectively releasing all of this "trapped particulate matter" My system does not "crash"

What is the actual Percentage that you think you are releasing? 20% of Your Entire sand bed?

There's a level where your biofilter cannot process the amount of available decaying material. When that is exceeded toxic Ammonia kind animals. The decaying organic matter in unwashed sand, has time and time again been enough to overload established biofilters. Brandon, links a bunch of these in his threads. Search Tank Crash. This is a huge constant.

I don't know why this is arguable.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

I am NOT saying that cleaning the sand does not work. The evidence that it does work is clear and verifiable.

I am stating that the belief that you "must" clean the sand or suffer a catastrophic loss is false. I have personal experience and 2 verifiable work threads to prove it.

Would you prefer the preface of " Choosing to Not wash your sand leads to a much higher probability of a new tank crash" make you feel better? Who said must? Who are you arguing against? Nobody said you would or nuclear genocide. It's a best practice for a reason, take it or leave it.

Why is this even arguable?

 

[Gatorpa]

And this means what?

When I did my original build for the 55, I used a bucket of unwashed sand from the guy I got my 180g from. it had that strong "rotten egg" smell.

That tank ran beautifully for as long as I had it set up. In fact, aside from an outbreak of Bryopsis, it ran perfectly from day 1 to day 450ish when I upgraded.

Further, the sand I reused, after sitting for a day in a bucket, had the same scent of rotten egg, although not as bad as the sand I used in the start. Again, the transfer was seamless.

Im not being critical of using old sand. As I noted up thread I’ve done it many times and never had an issue.
I was just giving an example of what might give someone an issue release of H2S ( thanks for the correction up thread
) into a running system often causes death of fish and coral stress. I think that’s pretty much well documented.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

Everything in your aquarium is covered in your biofilter, and we can probably agree, that small particulates of detritis filtered down into the sand where they are trapped.

These are not decaying at the same speed everything else is. There is a massive organic source that when dug up and added to a new aquarium without a stable intact bio filter, or overloading what is added, ammonia rises faster than the tank can cycle it and the tank experiences a "crash".

A couple of things here…

If you leave a couple of inches of water in the tank and then start vigorously stirring the sand bed, and then pile the sand up in the corner of the tank, guess where most of that detritus ends up? In the water.

Maybe I wasn’t clear, but after you stir all that sand and pile it up , you just drain and pitch that remaining water. There goes 90% of your detritus, hydrogen sulfide, etc.

Secondly, even with some of that stuff left in the sand, you even out your bed, add water/rock/etc, and guess where it all ends up…under your sand where it was before.

Not sure how other people are doing it, but if you do it the way I described, you will not have a crash. Even if you put me on the hook for replacing anything that died, I would walk right up to the nicest looking tank on this forum and do this out without a second thought.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

What is the actual Percentage that you think you are releasing? 20% of Your Entire sand bed?

There's a level where your biofilter cannot process the amount of available decaying material. When that is exceeded toxic Ammonia kind animals. The decaying organic matter in unwashed sand, has time and time again been enough to overload established biofilters. Brandon, links a bunch of these in his threads. Search Tank Crash. This is a huge constant.

I don't know why this is arguable.

Because it’s not correct.

 

[Gatorpa]

Maybe. But so is mine. I’ve done it so many times I’ve lost count. Maybe 100? I have no idea how many times I’ve done it.

H2SO4 is a pretty reactive gas. Move the sand around in the couple of inches of water left in the tank, then pile it up and let it sit, and most of that H2SO4 will be gone. Here’s the other thing…most of whatever H2SO4 that is left in the sand will just be where it was in the 1st place. Buried in the bed. The only H2SO4 that should really be interacting with the tank water will be what little is in the top few mm of the sand.

And if you’re running the filtration, skimmer, etc, that little bit will react with the air and water and be a non-factor.

Would you be in trouble if you had a huge build-up of H2SO4 and then turned your whole bed over with all of your animals still in the tank? You could be. But doing it the way I do it is pretty risk free.

Like I said elsewhere I’ve done it dozens of times. I’m not arguing against it.
And I didn’t let the sand sit for a day.

Drained tank into Cooler, and live rock, remove fish/corals into first bit of drained water.
Sand into 5 gallon bucket with scoop.
last bit of dirty water gets washed away.

Tank moved
Sand into tank.
Scape tank
Fill tank
Place corals
fish into tank
Top off with fresh water usually I do about a 40-50% water change at the same time. But I use NSW.
Done in 4-6 hours

 

[Jedi1199]

Would you prefer the preface of " Choosing to Not wash your sand leads to a much higher probability of a new tank crash" make you feel better? Who said must? Who are you arguing against? Nobody said you would or nuclear genocide. It's a best practice for a reason, take it or leave it.

Why is this even arguable?

I would be in complete agreement with you if not for variables that we are not discussing.

First, surface area of rocks and other items in the system that cycling bacteria adhere to. This includes not only rocks, but the glass itself, as well as any other surface inside the tank.

Now, let's discuss the actual tank being transferred. Do you think that a 20g tank, moved into a 100g would suffer a "crash"? Even if it was moved in entirety?

I can see the possibility that a 100g moved into a 20 would be an issue, but an upgrade?

The OP here is going from 75 to 90. That may or may not be an issue but we have to know the variables. Does he have 2 huge boulders that weigh 70 Lbs, or does he have an aquascape consisting of several dozen pieces that equate to the accepted 1 lb rock per gallon ratio that we believe is correct?

What other options of filtration are involved? Does he have a running canister? Does he have a bucketful of cured rock that is already cycled?

My issue is with blanket statements.

We all have different systems, and we all have different thoughts on how to deal with issues.

I have no issue with washing sand. I personally don't bother, but that is my own choice. I would rather not lose the microfauna in my sand than wash it.

That said, I also know that I have more then enough surface area in my aquascape to handle any added bio-load that using unwashed sand could introduce.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

Like I said elsewhere I’ve done it dozens of times. I’m not arguing against it.
And I didn’t let the sand sit for a day.

Drained tank into Cooler, and live rock, remove fish/corals into first bit of drained water.
Sand into 5 gallon bucket with scoop.
last bit of dirty water gets washed away.

Tank moved
Sand into tank.
Scape tank
Fill tank
Place corals
fish into tank
Top off with fresh water usually I do about a 40-50% water change at the same time. But I use NSW.
Done in 4-6 hours

For sure. It’s actually a service I provide for my clients. Every 2-3 years, regardless of what is going on in the tank, I just rip it apart and redo it. Pretty much like you said…all livestock and rock out, 90-95% of the water out, and then dig into the sand and wash it out, drain the garbage water, and set it back up.

The reason I do it is because it rejuvenates the system

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

That said, I also know that I have more then enough surface area in my aquascape to handle any added bio-load that using unwashed sand could introduce.

You're ignoring the fact that the biofilter does not colonize every square inch of surface area - its growth is limited by the current bioload. If unwashed sand releases a significant amount of decaying matter, it will overwhelm the existing biofilter the same way adding 10 fish to a newly cycled tank will.

*If you personally are in the habit of stirring up your entire sandbed once a month, then obviously your sand will not accumulate the same amount of biological material that most established tanks do. Your situation may be so different from the majority of reefers that comparing your tank move to others' is pointless