SaltEpidemic
Community Member
He's spent time in the sump before too lol didn't learn a thing!
Yeah, I might look into it. Talk about irritation with this singular fish lol
Tang Aggression - Understanding and Combating
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SaltEpidemic
Community Member
So I pulled him. Wasn't to bad, used egg crate to section him off, only had to pull a couple rocks to make it possibly, worked like a charm. What a life saver really lol
FishyLips
Community Member
Great postSo what's the deal with tangs? How do I keep them together? Why are they so aggressive and difficult to keep sometimes? It's a common discussion point. Some may dissent with what I have to share but I've never had less than three tanks running at a time, up to 7, and have been in the hobby ~15 years with 2 of them spent working for an LFS running their saltwater fish dept largely, for what it's worth.
Root of Tang Aggression:Understand that from a tangs point of view, more herbivores means less algae. They've evolved to defend their patch of algae and territory very hard because they may starve if someone else comes in and takes it over. It's literally life or death for them. Angels and other herbivores are occasionally ousted but tangs in particular are often in direct competition for food and will be heckled heavily. The only herbivore that is tolerated (sometimes) is foxface. This is because they're venomous. Even still I've seen tangs stress them to death literally.
Tangs are often most aggressive to members of the same species in home aquaria and species in the same genus. When not schooling, they often protect a patch of rock from other fish, often other tangs, particularly tangs of the same species. (It is much more likely that they will compete for food since their diet is identical)
Tangs are also more likely to be aggressive in the home aquaria because they are stressed and in smaller quarters. Even the best hobbyists have questionable environments compared to their natural homes in the ocean. Fish that swim several miles each day such as many acanthurus tangs (particularly PBT, Achilles, etc) feel cramped and as with any organism that is stressed, they can respond to this by "acting out" (aggression).
The author keeps quite a few tangs in his own aquarium as you can see in the 2 photos below.
What Does Tang Aggression Look Like?
Tangs are purpose built for eating algae and defending said food source. They're equipped with at least one scalpel near the base of the tail for "swiping" other fish. This is where the name "surgeonfish" came from. These can do a lot of damage and leave serious lascerations. When adding or mixing tangs, be on the lookout for aggression and know when to implement "Plan B". Constant chasing, nipping, and swiping is not a good sign and unlikely to stop. As you'll read later, some species hold grudges forever and others let bygones be bygones on occasion. It's your job as the hobbyist to know when to intervene. Occasional chasing, flaring fins, circling each other, or swiping motions that are clearly a dominance display rather than a true attempt at puncturing the other fish should be noted but are common in a tank mixed with territorial herbivores.
With all of this in mind, your existing tangs are not going to be welcoming.
The degree of aggression the new tangs receive can be curbed by:
1) Keep them very very well fed. Keep enough nori in there that by the end of the day it is gone but they have access to it for most of the day. This will make them feel like they need to compete less, but it's no guarantee.
2) Re-arrange rockwork. This can be successful because the tang feels like they are no longer in their territory temporarily and may hesitate to be as aggressive as otherwise.
3) Add multiple tangs at a time. Tangs can take some serious abuse, but 3 on 1 new addition is terrible odds. It may work but the new fish will be very stressed and possibly stabbed several times. Even if only one new tang heckled the new tang it would not be a fair fight - a fat established and possibly more aggressive species targeting a fish that has been through heck getting to you and as such has a weak immune system, is thinner presumably because it hasn't eaten as it should, and is very stressed. More tangs will increase distraction and will break up aggression considerably, providing you don't have a tang that singles one of the newcomers out. Powder blue are notorious for picking a grudge and taking it to their grave. Other aggressive species often simmer down in a weeks time. If the fish makes it that long things should get better, presuming they don't succumb to ich or other parasites.
4) Use acclimation boxes. This shields the newcomer from attacks from other fish and gets them used to seeing the new fish. It also allows the new fish to adjust a bit so that it is better able to defend itself and know its surroundings better.
5) Mirrors placed in the corner of the tank. For a very aggressive tang, sometimes a mirror placed in the corners will keep the fish flashing and attacking itself rather than harassing a new addition. I've personally never done this but have heard of some limited success.
6) Removal of the problem fish and a re-introduction later. This can work because the tank pecking order is disrupted. The fish will be confused by the change and work out their own new pecking order and be less concerned with harassing the newcomers. Upon reintroduction some few days or months later, assumedly the new fish will not be the tank boss and will not be as territorial as a result (since it is not his territory now - yet)
7) A combination of these ideas. To hedge your bets, mixing strategies may well be worth the effort.
8) If you are planning to add tangs of the same genus, definitely add more than one. I frequently break the rules with tangs. One tank has a PBT and Achilles tang together, another has a PBT, Achilles, and goldrim together. I even have a pair of achilles together (do NOT try this at home). They get along great. This wasn't easy and some fish had to be moved around and they were added simultaneously most of the time. I've always kept purple, yellow, and sailfins as a trio. Again, adding at the same time. They've always gotten along well. I've done this for 12 years with more than three test groups in various tanks on various occasions.
Adding a yellow to an established purple for instance is likely to end in the death of the yellow. Adding an Achilles to a PBT is often murder.
Notice the 2 Achilles tangs, PBT, and Goldrim together in these two photos.
9) Adding tangs of larger OR smaller size. There is different logic to this theory, both is probably valid. Add larger less aggressive tangs than your most aggressive tang to intimidate it. Again some may not be intimidated... particularly PBT.
Adding smaller tangs may make sense because the existing tang may see them as LESS of a threat for dominance in the pecking order (but still a threat to its food sources...)
Many people have different opinions but the only steadfast rule I follow is not to add tangs of the same exact size unless I am adding them in groups.
Conclusion:
Understand that none of this is fool proof. Powder blue tangs in particular are notorious for holding a permanent grudge. Months of time apart will not work if they have a "personal vendetta" to destroy a fish-- not always a tang, either.
Sohal tangs IME are not nearly as aggressive as people make them out to be. I hypothesize that a few people had terror sohal tangs and their stories keep getting repeated by other members and shared with others. As such, they get a worse rep than they deserve because of the same stories being told by several reefers. Honestly I don't even rank sohal tangs in the top 5 most aggressive tangs, although it is on my list because I've not owned all tangs
My list is this: (I'm only ranking tangs I've actually had experience with). This is just an opinion after having several of each species over the years in multiple tanks.
1) Powder Blue
2) Powder Brown
3) Sohal (increasingly nasty with size)
4) Clown (increasingly nasty with size)
5) Achilles (some are docile but the nasty are up there with PBT)
6) Purple
7) Yellow
8) Goldrim/ White Cheek
9) Scopas
10) Gem
11) Kole (increasingly nasty with size)
12) Sailfin
13) Atlantic blue
14) Desjardini Sailfin
15) Hippo & YB Hippo
16) Tomini Tang
17) Chevron
18) Orange Shoulder
19) Convict Tang
20) Blonde Naso
21) Naso
A lot of variance exists between species, this is just my experience and observations over the years with other peers and kin I interact with or see them and their tanks frequently.
I hope this is helpful.
Great and informative post! Wish I read it sooner. I have only been in the hobby for a year now, but it has been fun watching the ecosystem grow and fish behavior. I have an aggressive Bluelip Bristletooth that has cost me quite a bit in dead fish. Most recently, I am missing some, including a cleaner wrasse. Here's the body count:So what's the deal with tangs? How do I keep them together? Why are they so aggressive and difficult to keep sometimes? It's a common discussion point. Some may dissent with what I have to share but I've never had less than three tanks running at a time, up to 7, and have been in the hobby ~15 years with 2 of them spent working for an LFS running their saltwater fish dept largely, for what it's worth.
Root of Tang Aggression:Understand that from a tangs point of view, more herbivores means less algae. They've evolved to defend their patch of algae and territory very hard because they may starve if someone else comes in and takes it over. It's literally life or death for them. Angels and other herbivores are occasionally ousted but tangs in particular are often in direct competition for food and will be heckled heavily. The only herbivore that is tolerated (sometimes) is foxface. This is because they're venomous. Even still I've seen tangs stress them to death literally.
Tangs are often most aggressive to members of the same species in home aquaria and species in the same genus. When not schooling, they often protect a patch of rock from other fish, often other tangs, particularly tangs of the same species. (It is much more likely that they will compete for food since their diet is identical)
Tangs are also more likely to be aggressive in the home aquaria because they are stressed and in smaller quarters. Even the best hobbyists have questionable environments compared to their natural homes in the ocean. Fish that swim several miles each day such as many acanthurus tangs (particularly PBT, Achilles, etc) feel cramped and as with any organism that is stressed, they can respond to this by "acting out" (aggression).
The author keeps quite a few tangs in his own aquarium as you can see in the 2 photos below.
What Does Tang Aggression Look Like?
Tangs are purpose built for eating algae and defending said food source. They're equipped with at least one scalpel near the base of the tail for "swiping" other fish. This is where the name "surgeonfish" came from. These can do a lot of damage and leave serious lascerations. When adding or mixing tangs, be on the lookout for aggression and know when to implement "Plan B". Constant chasing, nipping, and swiping is not a good sign and unlikely to stop. As you'll read later, some species hold grudges forever and others let bygones be bygones on occasion. It's your job as the hobbyist to know when to intervene. Occasional chasing, flaring fins, circling each other, or swiping motions that are clearly a dominance display rather than a true attempt at puncturing the other fish should be noted but are common in a tank mixed with territorial herbivores.
With all of this in mind, your existing tangs are not going to be welcoming.
The degree of aggression the new tangs receive can be curbed by:
1) Keep them very very well fed. Keep enough nori in there that by the end of the day it is gone but they have access to it for most of the day. This will make them feel like they need to compete less, but it's no guarantee.
2) Re-arrange rockwork. This can be successful because the tang feels like they are no longer in their territory temporarily and may hesitate to be as aggressive as otherwise.
3) Add multiple tangs at a time. Tangs can take some serious abuse, but 3 on 1 new addition is terrible odds. It may work but the new fish will be very stressed and possibly stabbed several times. Even if only one new tang heckled the new tang it would not be a fair fight - a fat established and possibly more aggressive species targeting a fish that has been through heck getting to you and as such has a weak immune system, is thinner presumably because it hasn't eaten as it should, and is very stressed. More tangs will increase distraction and will break up aggression considerably, providing you don't have a tang that singles one of the newcomers out. Powder blue are notorious for picking a grudge and taking it to their grave. Other aggressive species often simmer down in a weeks time. If the fish makes it that long things should get better, presuming they don't succumb to ich or other parasites.
4) Use acclimation boxes. This shields the newcomer from attacks from other fish and gets them used to seeing the new fish. It also allows the new fish to adjust a bit so that it is better able to defend itself and know its surroundings better.
5) Mirrors placed in the corner of the tank. For a very aggressive tang, sometimes a mirror placed in the corners will keep the fish flashing and attacking itself rather than harassing a new addition. I've personally never done this but have heard of some limited success.
6) Removal of the problem fish and a re-introduction later. This can work because the tank pecking order is disrupted. The fish will be confused by the change and work out their own new pecking order and be less concerned with harassing the newcomers. Upon reintroduction some few days or months later, assumedly the new fish will not be the tank boss and will not be as territorial as a result (since it is not his territory now - yet)
7) A combination of these ideas. To hedge your bets, mixing strategies may well be worth the effort.
8) If you are planning to add tangs of the same genus, definitely add more than one. I frequently break the rules with tangs. One tank has a PBT and Achilles tang together, another has a PBT, Achilles, and goldrim together. I even have a pair of achilles together (do NOT try this at home). They get along great. This wasn't easy and some fish had to be moved around and they were added simultaneously most of the time. I've always kept purple, yellow, and sailfins as a trio. Again, adding at the same time. They've always gotten along well. I've done this for 12 years with more than three test groups in various tanks on various occasions.
Adding a yellow to an established purple for instance is likely to end in the death of the yellow. Adding an Achilles to a PBT is often murder.
Notice the 2 Achilles tangs, PBT, and Goldrim together in these two photos.
9) Adding tangs of larger OR smaller size. There is different logic to this theory, both is probably valid. Add larger less aggressive tangs than your most aggressive tang to intimidate it. Again some may not be intimidated... particularly PBT.
Adding smaller tangs may make sense because the existing tang may see them as LESS of a threat for dominance in the pecking order (but still a threat to its food sources...)
Many people have different opinions but the only steadfast rule I follow is not to add tangs of the same exact size unless I am adding them in groups.
Conclusion:
Understand that none of this is fool proof. Powder blue tangs in particular are notorious for holding a permanent grudge. Months of time apart will not work if they have a "personal vendetta" to destroy a fish-- not always a tang, either.
Sohal tangs IME are not nearly as aggressive as people make them out to be. I hypothesize that a few people had terror sohal tangs and their stories keep getting repeated by other members and shared with others. As such, they get a worse rep than they deserve because of the same stories being told by several reefers. Honestly I don't even rank sohal tangs in the top 5 most aggressive tangs, although it is on my list because I've not owned all tangs
My list is this: (I'm only ranking tangs I've actually had experience with). This is just an opinion after having several of each species over the years in multiple tanks.
1) Powder Blue
2) Powder Brown
3) Sohal (increasingly nasty with size)
4) Clown (increasingly nasty with size)
5) Achilles (some are docile but the nasty are up there with PBT)
6) Purple
7) Yellow
8) Goldrim/ White Cheek
9) Scopas
10) Gem
11) Kole (increasingly nasty with size)
12) Sailfin
13) Atlantic blue
14) Desjardini Sailfin
15) Hippo & YB Hippo
16) Tomini Tang
17) Chevron
18) Orange Shoulder
19) Convict Tang
20) Blonde Naso
21) Naso
A lot of variance exists between species, this is just my experience and observations over the years with other peers and kin I interact with or see them and their tanks frequently.
I hope this is helpful.
- (2) Diamond Watchman Goby
- Blue Cheek Goby
- Sailfin Tang
- Powder Blue Tang
- Naso Tang
- Algae Blenny
- Cleaner Wrasse
My Foxface and Regal Tang are bigger and defend themselves enough to deter aggression. The Nano was twice the size of the Bristletooth but that did not matter. The other Tangs were slightly larger as well.
The Gobies were living in a cave with a Watchman/Pistol shrimp, so I suspect that something went on there as well. The pistol shrimp lost his claw recently, although I did introduce a Harlequin Shrimp to help with some Asterina starfish, but he went right after and devoured my Sand Sifting star and I have not seen it since! Not sure if the two Shrimp introduced themselves to each other.
So got a new tank being setup 300+ gallons, and of course adding more tangs. I have a 10" desdarjini sailfin that runs stuff, and is getting kind of aggressive, right now I have him isolated. Should I add him last or add everything at the same time for the new tank??
Have blond naso, achilles and gem, have a hippo coming soon.
Have blond naso, achilles and gem, have a hippo coming soon.
disaster999
Active Member
I have a Blue Caribbean Tang (Acanthurus coeruleus) in my tank and would want to get another tang. I have 2 tangs I really like (Sohal and Purple) and would like to see which one would have the higher chance of surviving and co-existing with my existing Blue Caribbean Tang. From what I understand, the Purple Tang (Zebrasoma xanthurum) would have the higher chance since its a completely different family as suppose to Sohal tang is the same Acanthurus family?
OP
OP
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
That’s correct but also because of the aggression levels of the tangs you have/want. Of them, purple is less surly toward newcomers (typically). They’re still aggressive, and individuals vary. Sohal are more aggressive. They also get massive. I’d avoid a sohal in a tank under 8 feet long-term.
vetteguy53081
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Sohal, one of the nastiest of tangs. Purple is hit and miss. Purple can be the child of the devil as mine was but after 3 years or so has calmed down
cdnco2004
Valuable Member
My Purple is the worst of my tangs. My poor Racoon Butterfly gets no rest from my Purple Tang. The only thing that has stopped me from tearing the tank and pulling the Purple is the fact she never actually bites the racoon. She just chases. Now I just saw my Naso chase my poor Racoon. what the heck My Naso is the gentlest, most peaceful of my Tangs. I feel bad for my Racoon she never bothers anyone. It has given me a lot of pause in introducing my two new Angels that are still in post QT observation. They are still only 2 and 3" so not big yet and seem pretty content in the tank they are in, I still want to get them moved over soon. Will use large acclimation box for 1-2 weeks followed by mirrors when released.
If you wanted to have them all would need/recommend adding all at same time and very small ones to allow to learn to live together and also deconflict size wise. How big is your tank will be a huge determining factor also.
Best case scenario you do this as others have recommended and all are okay and love each other and their new home....most likely Caribbean tang will fight the Sohal and lose most likely as Sohal's are know to grow very large eventually and also be very very aggressive to other tangs added after them. The sohal even is smaller than the Carribbean will likely eventually dominate the tang and become king tang and run things...they do not tolerate tangs added after them I hear also. Had one as a juvenile and didn't make it out of QT but for the 3 weeks I did have him in there...he quickly became the top tang with a smaller orange shoulder and a bristletooth tang.
May have better luck with a Clown Tang...or Leutenant or Achilles or Orange Shoudler maybe. I just added a Med Clown to my tank with a large purple tang and a med Hippo and med yellow and there was some initial squabbling but now he holds his own against a much larger purple who now leaves him be for the most part (and chases all fish equally LOL). Its luck sometimes as well as knowing just the right amount of temperament you can get away with.
vetteguy53081
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Clown tang itself can be nasty. Mine at 9" started out nice and has had its moments.
Agree just trying to rank them as listed and the clown would likely be less aggressive than the sohal but above the Carribean he has already. A Powder Blue Tang would likely be same as the Clown although I've had both and the PBT are the most temperamental...and some just hate any other fish especially tang current and newly added!
disaster999
Active Member
Yeah, I think a purple would be better in my tank
The purple I had before my tank crashed was pretty chill and got a long great with my sohal. I added the purple first then the sohal so I guess that helped, also they are from 2 different family so they left each other alone at the end.
Although adding both the sohal and purple tang would give them the best chance of surviving, I dont think my tank is big enough for 3 tangs.
Of all the Acanthuridae tang, I like the sohal the most. I got the Carribean at first because of its juvi colors (Yellow and blue) when I saw it in the shop. It grew so fast in my tank and now it has this deep blue (almost black) body body. I kind of want to trade/sell it back to the shop for a sohal but seems pretty mean and unfair to it.
hdemetri
New Member
10 days ago, I added a female watanabei angel to my 168 gallon tank that has a sailfin, blue hippo, one spot foxface, blue spotted rabbitfish, and some other small fish. There was immediate aggression from blue hippo tang to the new angelfish. I tried mirrors which provided minimal reduction in aggression and mainly annoyed my sailfin who was not aggressive to the new fish. I put the new fish in an acclimation box for 3 days. After I released it, the aggression resumed. I then put the blue hippo in the acclimation box for 3 days and all it did was stress it at. After releasing it, the hippo was humble and hid a bit. After a few hours, it went back to being aggressive. Now, I simply put the acclimation box blow water surface which allows the new fish to go in and out. It is working amazingly well as a shelter. The hippo will not go inside but will swim around the box showing interest to the angelfish inside. The angelfish will come in and out of the box when it feels safe. Does anyone here think that the hippo will eventually give up and make peace? My hippo was never aggressive before and in general they are a bit less aggressive than other tangs. I really don't want to rehome it and I don't want to keep the acclimation box in the tank permanently.
vetteguy53081
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Hepatus as well as powder clue, clown, yellow and sohal can be very un-inviting. You can attempt a mirror against the glass to distract it but rarely works for me. As with my purple who is currently in the sump, you may have to remove it for ay least 10=14 days. With my purple, doing this changed nothing. After return to tank, within 8 hrs started its crap again
hdemetri
New Member
Thank you for sharing your experience. The current situation is kind of working since the angel freely goes in and out of the acclimation box and is eating really well. The hippo is still chasing the angelfish when she is out but does not follow her into the acclimation box. At this point, will wait and see.
Pneumatic_Addict
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I second vetteguys method. Though I’ve never had it not work.
If you have a QT tank/sump, put the hippo in timeout for a couple weeks.
At the very least, it’ll give the Angel a little peaceful acclimation period.
DarkReefer
Well-Known Member
Hi guys,
Currently have a Blue (hippo) tang and a purple tang in my tank. Been having some troubles with GHA and my LFS suggested adding in a bristletooth tang (like a 2 spot, or tomini) which should help by picking at the rocks all day (once I pull a bunch of it out).
Do you think this will be okay or will I likely see aggression between the tangs?
The purple is the most recent addition added about 5 months ago, the blue has been around for years and seems to tussle or do something with my foxface every now and then (not sure if the fox is kicking that one off though) but otherwise from what I can see no real aggression in the tank currently.
Other inhabitants include;
cleaner wrasse
yellow wrasse
flame hawkfish
foxface rabbitfish
bicolor blenny
clownfish pair
Looking to add around 5ish anthias or so soon too, so could maybe potentially add the bristletooth in with those so theres a bunch of new additions at once to help distract the others if that helps?
Happy to hear other potential better suited suggestions if you have them also.
Currently have a Blue (hippo) tang and a purple tang in my tank. Been having some troubles with GHA and my LFS suggested adding in a bristletooth tang (like a 2 spot, or tomini) which should help by picking at the rocks all day (once I pull a bunch of it out).
Do you think this will be okay or will I likely see aggression between the tangs?
The purple is the most recent addition added about 5 months ago, the blue has been around for years and seems to tussle or do something with my foxface every now and then (not sure if the fox is kicking that one off though) but otherwise from what I can see no real aggression in the tank currently.
Other inhabitants include;
cleaner wrasse
yellow wrasse
flame hawkfish
foxface rabbitfish
bicolor blenny
clownfish pair
Looking to add around 5ish anthias or so soon too, so could maybe potentially add the bristletooth in with those so theres a bunch of new additions at once to help distract the others if that helps?
Happy to hear other potential better suited suggestions if you have them also.
LiquidSpace
Active Member
I’m quarantining a Sailfin that is going to go into a 200 gallon. This will be the first fish. Did I screw up? Should I have done multiple tangs in QT with it?
My eventual plan is a Hippo and Orange Shoulder. I have toyed around with a yellow mimic but I’m not sure.
My eventual plan is a Hippo and Orange Shoulder. I have toyed around with a yellow mimic but I’m not sure.
OP
OP
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
The short answer is that it depends. But if you add them quickly, it probably will work better in your favor. I don’t typically find that zebrasoma tangs, namely sailfin are overly aggressive - but every one is different. If he’s king of the tank and it’s a barren tank otherwise - it admittedly does increase the risk a bit.
Zebrasoma tangs don’t often hold long grudges and get over it within 1-7 days, however.
Zebrasoma tangs don’t often hold long grudges and get over it within 1-7 days, however.
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