Struggling to balance nitrates and phosphates

[KatoJoe]

How hard is it to balance and stabilize N and P? And how important is it?

I’ve recently started resurrecting my tank from bottomed out nutrients and I’m struggling to do so. The tank has been running two years but the nutrients where bottomed out until around may of this year when I started to really pay attention to it.

I’ve found it extremely hard to get things to stabilize and I’m wondering if this is normal? Once I brought N and P up to detectable levels I had a huge algae bloom that I’m still struggling through but headed in the right direction I think. Am I basically cycling the tank again and starting over?

My phosphate bounces around between .1 to .2 and my nitrates between 0 and 15. I try to test at the same time of day. P seems to be the most stable and N tends to be closer to 0 than 15 recently. Ive been dosing neonitro randomly to try to bring N up but I have had multiple acros start to stn or completely rtn within 24 hours of dosing neonitro and I’m dosing such a small amount. It’s purely anecdotal but I feel like it’s definitely related to the neonitro dosing. I don’t want N to bottom out completely again but my corals don’t seem to like the nitrate dosing. Is there another product worth trying? Maybe ammonium bicarbonate?

I’m done with trying anymore sps for the time being but I’d prefer not to kill the ones I have remaining. Honestly I’m starting to feel overwhelmed. I should be able to read through these forums, pick up tips from countless other threads of people having the same problems and figure it all out but it has been far from that easy.

I’m sure there’s much more info needed than what I’ve supplied. I’d appreciate help from anyone willing to dive into the specifics of my situation and help me put together a plan.


Tanks specs:
90 gallon Red Sea reefer 425
3 xr15 pro gen6 and 2 Kessil a360x
Filter socks and Red Sea skimmer for filtration
Refugium that has 8 hr photoperiod at night

Tonight’s test results:
Dkh 9.3
No3 4.5
Po4 1.8
Calcium 430
Magnesium 1425
Salinity 35

 

[Ziggy17]

Just a thought, but your algae is probably up taking the N03, so once that’s under control, you’re likely to see a balanced P and N. I’m battling GHA and having similar issues.

 

[Formulator]

It sounds like you just need a consistent dosing regimen for nitrate. I had the same issue at the beginning of this year when I did a major overhaul on my 9 year old tank. I could not keep nitrate up and eventually found the only way to keep it above zero and stable was to dose it daily. Now I dose about 2 ppm per day to keep my nitrate stable at 10 ppm. My phosphate was also elevated and I found the nitrate dosing itself helped lower and stabilize my phosphate. I also started using GFO to bring it down to 0.1 ppm and now I just run the GFO on a timer for 3 hours/day which keeps phosphate stable at my 0.1 ppm taget.

The random nitrate dosing is likely causing the acro stress as you are sending them on a roller coaster of instability that way. A more consistent approach with the neonitro will make them happy. Mine are doing quite well and more colorful than ever with my daily neonitro dosing routine.

 

[danreef55]

Hi KJ,
What fish do you have. A simple solution would be to feed more heavily/frequently to help elevate nitrates. Formulator's suggestions are also very viable. Good luck

 

[KatoJoe]

Just a thought, but your algae is probably up taking the N03, so once that’s under control, you’re likely to see a balanced P and N. I’m battling GHA and having similar issues.

If I were to clean out a bunch of algae manually, like most of it, and retest no3 say 24 hrs later should I expect to see the no3 rise since the algae isn’t there to consume it? Just wondering since that could explain some of the back and forth in my test results.

 

[slingfox]

Please post a picture of your tank. That will give people a better sense of the setup.

What test kits are you using and how often are you testing phosphate and nitrate?

What is your feeding regime?

How often do you water change?

If you are having issues with keeping nitrate at detectable levels you probably don't want to turn on the refugium light for now.

Dosing Neonitro for long periods of time is expensive. You should look into mixing your own nitrate solution---it is much cheaper.

For now I would focus on bringing the phosphate level down either through a combination of very large water change and/or lanthanum chloride (need to be careful how you do so if you have tangs).

 

[gbroadbridge]

If I were to clean out a bunch of algae manually, like most of it, and retest no3 say 24 hrs later should I expect to see the no3 rise since the algae isn’t there to consume it? Just wondering since that could explain some of the back and forth in my test results.

Yes

 

[slingfox]

If I were to clean out a bunch of algae manually, like most of it, and retest no3 say 24 hrs later should I expect to see the no3 rise since the algae isn’t there to consume it? Just wondering since that could explain some of the back and forth in my test results.

You should remove as much algae manually as possible. What kind of cleanup crew do you have? Not going to be easy to stabilize tank if you have algae growing everywhere due to inadequate CUC.

 

[KatoJoe]

Hi KJ,
What fish do you have. A simple solution would be to feed more heavily/frequently to help elevate nitrates. Formulator's suggestions are also very viable. Good luck

Thanks for the reply. I feed twice a day, pellets in the morning and a homemade frozen mysis, krill blend in the evening.

Fish list:
Powder blue tang
White tail kole tang
Coral beauty
Two clowns
Royal gramma
Pseudo purple basslet
Firefish
Two springer damsels
1 cardinal

 

[Formulator]

Dosing Neonitro for long periods of time is expensive. You should look into mixing your own nitrate solution---it is much cheaper.

You would think that initially, but it’s really not that bad. $25 gets you a 2 liter bottle which will get me more than 8 months of daily dosing in my 130g system. Obviously it is still much cheaper to make your own, but I’ll pay the $35/year for the convenience factor.

 

[KatoJoe]

You should remove as much algae manually as possible. What kind of cleanup crew do you have? Not going to be easy to stabilize tank if you have algae growing everywhere due to inadequate CUC.

I’m working on building it up. Currently it consists of two turbo snails, about 8 trochus, 15 blue leg hermits, 10 nassarius, two conchs and a cleaner shrimp.

 

[danreef55]

I would increase the frequency of feeding if your schedule allows. If not consider power feeding. Feed what they can consume in two minutes. Wait 15 minutes and repeat as many times as long as the fish continue to feed.

 

[slingfox]

You would think that initially, but it’s really not that bad. $25 gets you a 2 liter bottle which will get me more than 8 months of daily dosing in my 130g system. Obviously it is still much cheaper to make your own, but I’ll pay the $35/year for the convenience factor.

If one bottle lasts that long then yeah going with Neonitro makes sense. When I was dealing with zero nitrate and the uglies on my 140g, I dosed an entire bottle over the course of 2 weeks and nitrates still read at zero since I had algae and Dino's growing everywhere. That is when I decided to mix my own. Now that my tank is stable I rarely ever have to dose nitrates so I have a huge supply in my supply closet now!

 

[strich]

Firstly, I am getting the distinct impression that you may be trying and abandoning things too quickly before the ecosystem has a chance to swing back to stability after you unstabilize it with any change. I could be wrong about your timelines however, but just be mindful that it takes time for the tank to suffer algae blooms which are fast movers and for the rest of the ecosystem to adjust and rebalance.

After an extended period of bottomed-out nutrients, it can take weeks or months to fully stabilize N and P levels, as the system must reestablish equilibrium. Reduce phosphates slowly, stabilize nitrate dosing, and give your system time to adjust to the new nutrient levels.

Your refugium with an 8-hour photoperiod might need more time to effectively remove excess nutrients. Consider increasing the photoperiod or adjusting the refugium light intensity to encourage more macroalgae growth, which will help absorb excess N and P.

I might be wrong, but your phosphate levels are quite high (1.8 ppm)? which is much higher than the typical range for a reef tank (0.03 - 0.10 ppm). High phosphate can fuel unwanted algae growth and stress corals.

 

[slingfox]

I’m working on building it up. Currently it consists of two turbo snails, about 8 trochus, 15 blue leg hermits, 10 nassarius, two conchs and a cleaner shrimp.

You should add two tuxedo urchins and more snails which will keep the rock clean. The nassarius and conch help keep the sand clean but won't do much for the rockwork which is the primary issue I assume. For snails, get a wide variety if possible since different snails will focus on slightly different areas of tank and type of algae.

Do you have and herbivore fish? Those are monstrous algae eaters.

 

[KatoJoe]

It sounds like you just need a consistent dosing regimen for nitrate. I had the same issue at the beginning of this year when I did a major overhaul on my 9 year old tank. I could not keep nitrate up and eventually found the only way to keep it above zero and stable was to dose it daily. Now I dose about 2 ppm per day to keep my nitrate stable at 10 ppm. My phosphate was also elevated and I found the nitrate dosing itself helped lower and stabilize my phosphate. I also started using GFO to bring it down to 0.1 ppm and now I just run the GFO on a timer for 3 hours/day which keeps phosphate stable at my 0.1 ppm taget.

The random nitrate dosing is likely causing the acro stress as you are sending them on a roller coaster of instability that way. A more consistent approach with the neonitro will make them happy. Mine are doing quite well and more colorful than ever with my daily neonitro dosing routine.

yeah, I’ve been questioning how to determine my daily/weekly uptake of no3 since I’m not certain how to pinpoint that with test results not being consistent

 

[KatoJoe]

Firstly, I am getting the distinct impression that you may be trying and abandoning things too quickly before the ecosystem has a chance to swing back to stability after you unstabilize it with any change. I could be wrong about your timelines however, but just be mindful that it takes time for the tank to suffer algae blooms which are fast movers and for the rest of the ecosystem to adjust and rebalance.

After an extended period of bottomed-out nutrients, it can take weeks or months to fully stabilize N and P levels, as the system must reestablish equilibrium. Reduce phosphates slowly, stabilize nitrate dosing, and give your system time to adjust to the new nutrient levels.

Your refugium with an 8-hour photoperiod might need more time to effectively remove excess nutrients. Consider increasing the photoperiod or adjusting the refugium light intensity to encourage more macroalgae growth, which will help absorb excess N and P.

I might be wrong, but your phosphate levels are quite high (1.8 ppm)? which is much higher than the typical range for a reef tank (0.03 - 0.10 ppm). High phosphate can fuel unwanted algae growth and stress corals.

Yes, you’re probably right. I honestly feel like my tank was in better shape back when I had bottomed out nutrients and neglected it. At least then there was more consistency. I’m still getting used to how long it takes to see the results of changes I make and am probably impatiently making too many changes too fast.

And yikes! 1.8 po4 is a typo. That should read .18
Not sure if/how I can change the original post to correct that.

 

[danreef55]

I would also consider copepods and rotifers for the fish and corals. They also assist with some problem algae.
Randy has write ups with all these issues and how best to resolve.

 

[KatoJoe]

You should add two tuxedo urchins and more snails which will keep the rock clean. The nassarius and conch help keep the sand clean but won't do much for the rockwork which is the primary issue I assume. For snails, get a wide variety if possible since different snails will focus on slightly different areas of tank and type of algae.

Do you have and herbivore fish? Those are monstrous algae eaters.

Yes two tangs, they are constantly picking at the rocks, not sure they do as much work as the turbos do in my system.

Please post a picture of your tank. That will give people a better sense of the setup.

What test kits are you using and how often are you testing phosphate and nitrate?

What is your feeding regime?

How often do you water change?

If you are having issues with keeping nitrate at detectable levels you probably don't want to turn on the refugium light for now.

Dosing Neonitro for long periods of time is expensive. You should look into mixing your own nitrate solution---it is much cheaper.

For now I would focus on bringing the phosphate level down either through a combination of very large water change and/or lanthanum chloride (need to be careful how you do so if you have tangs).

Using hanna test kits. Water change is 10% per week. Feed twice a day. Lights are off now so I’ll try to get updated pics tomorrow. Heres a couple acro frags that rtn’d after dosing neo nitro.

 

[danreef55]

Suggest postponing the water changes until things stabilize. As mentioned before nothing good in this hobby comes fast.