SPS with with fuzz?

[CloudReefer]

hi all, hoping someone can lend their knowledge here

I have a blushing star coral I got in on some liverock from TBS last year. I've had this coral for a full year and it's grown a bit and generally is doing well.

Recently I noticed what looks like tiny white fuzzy cotton balls on it. At first I thought it was just stuff the polyps had gathered from the water, but after a few days I decided to take a closer look. Under 10x magnification it just looks like fuzz. I tried to remove some to look at under a microscope, but you can't scrape it off. I think it might actually be part of the coral flesh? I can't tell.

When the polyps are fully extended you can't see the fuzz.

At first I thought it might be pests of some kind, but it doesn't appear to be that.

The only thing that has changed parameter wise in my tank was I raised Mg from 1140 to 1340 over 6 days recently, and if that is causing stress I'd be surprised because this coral has been through way worse. I did make a small flow adjustment but do not think that is the cause here.

The coral has shown no sign of irritation or anything.

66g total water volume
77.0F
SG 1.026
Alk 7.8
Ca 390
Mg 1340
Nitrate 6.8
Phosphate .10
PAR ~150

Daily I add 8mL of All for Reef, 0.5mL Bactobalance (carbon source), 1mL calcium nitrate (to maintain nitrate levels).

Last pic is yesterday with polyps fully extended for a general view. I had to get it to retract it's polyps to get pics of the fuzz. Polyps are generally at least partially extended 99.9% of the day. Marked pics are from the top of the tank, outside the water and the rest through glass while holding the rock.

Appreciate any thoughts!

 

[Timfish]

Nice colony! My first guess would be partial bleaching, po4 is fine but adding labile DOC (carbon dosing) can cause issues and if the white areas continue to spread I'd look close at backing off both DOC and nitrate dosing. My second guess would be something damaged the tissue there and the skeleton is showing through the tissue and the white fuzz is indeed coral tissue.

 

[CloudReefer]

Nice colony! My first guess would be partial bleaching, po4 is fine but adding labile DOC (carbon dosing) can cause issues and if the white areas continue to spread I'd look close at backing off both DOC and nitrate dosing. My second guess would be something damaged the tissue there and the skeleton is showing through the tissue and the white fuzz is indeed coral tissue.

Thanks for the response! It's a nice colony and is endangered so I make it a pretty high priority for care, as much as I can anyway. It's grown a fair bit and if it continues I expect it to cover most of the rock it's on by the end of the year.

I don't think it's the carbon. I've been using it at low quantities to manage phosphate levels for awhile now and haven't had any negative reactions from anything in the tank. Even when I was up around 3mL/day (tried going without a filter sock for awhile). Same with nitrates.

I had my phosphates up around .8 for almost 3 months while fighting some dinos, and nitrates around 20, and the coral kept growing so don't think nutrients are it either.

So far this "fuzz" doesn't seem to be harming the coral but I will keep a very close eye on it. I wish I knew more about this coral but there's just not much info available.

Here's a picture from this morning. It's a bit cloudy because all my trochus were spawning when i took the pic but the coral looks great to my eyes.

 

[CloudReefer]

@Timfish I got a much better picture of the fuzz this afternoon. Looks like a wad of clear tentacles almost lol

I tried to suck this off with a pipette to get a look at it under a microscope, but couldn't get it off. It appears to either be attached to, or part of the coral.

 

[CloudReefer]

and a couple more, plus a short vid.

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

and a couple more, plus a short vid.

The bottom pics look like the coral spawning new mouths actually. I wouldn't try removing any of that.

Actually, I like to run my nitrate around 15 to 25 and phosphates around 0.08 to 0.14. My tank is almost full Acropora and they do great. LPS especially need nutrients. I wouldn't worry about the nitrate and phosphate at those levels, might even add a bit of nitrate.

Not sure how long you've been dosing all for reef, but it takes a few days for that to actually raise your elements as it isn't immediate. You might already know that, just saying.

I wouldn't stress too much, I don't really see an issue besides the carbon dosing. Be careful with that and if it's anything, the corals are irritated by something. So start looking at what you've changed or added.

 

[CloudReefer]

The bottom pics look like the coral spawning new mouths actually. I wouldn't try removing any of that.

Actually, I like to run my nitrate around 15 to 25 and phosphates around 0.08 to 0.14. My tank is almost full Acropora and they do great. LPS especially need nutrients. I wouldn't worry about the nitrate and phosphate at those levels, might even add a bit of nitrate.

Not sure how long you've been dosing all for reef, but it takes a few days for that to actually raise your elements as it isn't immediate. You might already know that, just saying.

I wouldn't stress too much, I don't really see an issue besides the carbon dosing. Be careful with that and if it's anything, the corals are irritated by something. So start looking at what you've changed or added.

A4R dosing for about 8 months now.

And you really think those might be new polyps? I actually had that thought for a minute, but then I was like "surely not". That could explain why when I tried to suction them off I got minesterial filaments (sp?) and appeared to stress the coral out. They also seemed to recede into the coral when I messed with them too much.

Would you elaborate on the concerns around carbon dosing? I know the calcium formate in the A4R has a similar effect as well so definitely want to be aware of what issues I could run into.

I found that my tank did a lot better with phosphates around 0.1 - 0.2 and nitrates higher as well. The nitrates are lower than usual (~8-10 is where I like it) due to increasing the A4R dose and not adjusting the calcium nitrate additions. I don't like to mess with more than 1 thing at a time so I watched to see how much more nitrate would be used up by the increased A4R and I am now adjusting that as needed to get it back to the range I like.

Thank you!

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

A4R dosing for about 8 months now.

And you really think those might be new polyps? I actually had that thought for a minute, but then I was like "surely not". That could explain why when I tried to suction them off I got minesterial filaments (sp?) and appeared to stress the coral out. They also seemed to recede into the coral when I messed with them too much.

Would you elaborate on the concerns around carbon dosing? I know the calcium formate in the A4R has a similar effect as well so definitely want to be aware of what issues I could run into.

I found that my tank did a lot better with phosphates around 0.1 - 0.2 and nitrates higher as well. The nitrates are lower than usual (~8-10 is where I like it) due to increasing the A4R dose and not adjusting the calcium nitrate additions. I don't like to mess with more than 1 thing at a time so I watched to see how much more nitrate would be used up by the increased A4R and I am now adjusting that as needed to get it back to the range I like.

Thank you!

Yes, looks like new growth to me (mouths) and that's a good thing.

Ok Tropic Marin All for Reef isn't carbon dosing. It's meant to be an all in one Alkalinity, Calcium, and Magnesium additive that also has a lot of trace elements as well.

Tropic Marin Bactobalance is basically to lower Nitrate and Phosphate in a tank that's having issues with those being really high. It uses bacteria to consume the excess nutrients.

So in your system, that's not a good thing and could be stressing your corals. Yes, I would recommend going back to your 20 or so Nitrate and 0.1 to a 0.15 phosphates.

Do you need to raise them immediately at the levels you currently have? No, just take it slow and see how things go when you eliminate the Bactobalance.

I would continue your All for Reef dosing and stop the Bactobalance for now. I think you'll see an improvement fairly quickly.

Glad to help!

 

[CloudReefer]

Yes, looks like new growth to me (mouths) and that's a good thing.

Ok Tropic Marin All for Reef isn't carbon dosing. It's meant to be an all in one Alkalinity, Calcium, and Magnesium additive that also has a lot of trace elements as well.

Tropic Marin Bactobalance is basically to lower Nitrate and Phosphate in a tank that's having issues with those being really high. It uses bacteria to consume the excess nutrients.

So in your system, that's not a good thing and could be stressing your corals. Yes, I would recommend going back to your 20 or so Nitrate and 0.1 to a 0.15 phosphates.

Do you need to raise them immediately at the levels you currently have? No, just take it slow and see how things go when you eliminate the Bactobalance.

I would continue your All for Reef dosing and stop the Bactobalance for now. I think you'll see an improvement fairly quickly.

Glad to help!

Understood on A4R. I only meant that because bacteria have to first break down the stuff in A4R that it will impact nutrient levels in a similar fashion to the bactobalance, but to a much smaller effect. Example - 1.0mL of bacto balance brings my phosphates down about .02-.03 in 24 hours (rather, it consumes about .02-.03 in 24 hours, which keeps the levels at a constant .10. I calculated it this way because if I stop dosing the bacto then it rises about .02-.03 in 24 hours, if that makes sense lol), and the A4R at 8.0mL will just barely maintain phosphates. Sorry I should have been more clear.

I use the bacto to help the A4R keep phosphates in check, and since it hits nitrates much harder I have to dose calcium nitrates to keep that from dropping.

That said, I'll happily eliminate the bacto and let the nutrients rise to the levels you suggest over a couple of weeks and see how things go. As I have to increase A4R dosing to keep up with demand, it is slowly starting to balance the phosphates out without needing to carbon dose (bacto). I've actually been bringing the carbon dose down as the A4R goes up.

I expect to be at 10mL of A4R within the next couple of weeks (new coral additions and coralline is really taking off since I adjusted Mg) and probably higher as there is a coral show in town June 1 and I expect to drop some coin there.

Again, very much appreciate that you took the time to share your knowledge and experience. Much appreciated and I will apply what you shared and see how it can benefit my tank!

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

Understood on A4R. I only meant that because bacteria have to first break down the stuff in A4R that it will impact nutrient levels in a similar fashion to the bactobalance, but to a much smaller effect. Example - 1.0mL of bacto balance brings my phosphates down about .02-.03 in 24 hours (rather, it consumes about .02-.03 in 24 hours, which keeps the levels at a constant .10. I calculated it this way because if I stop dosing the bacto then it rises about .02-.03 in 24 hours, if that makes sense lol), and the A4R at 8.0mL will just barely maintain phosphates. Sorry I should have been more clear.

I use the bacto to help the A4R keep phosphates in check, and since it hits nitrates much harder I have to dose calcium nitrates to keep that from dropping.

That said, I'll happily eliminate the bacto and let the nutrients rise to the levels you suggest over a couple of weeks and see how things go. As I have to increase A4R dosing to keep up with demand, it is slowly starting to balance the phosphates out without needing to carbon dose (bacto).

I expect to be at 10mL of A4R within the next couple of weeks (new coral additions and coralline is really taking off since I adjusted Mg) and probably higher as there is a coral show in town June 1 and I expect to drop some coin there.

Again, very much appreciate that you took the time to share your knowledge and experience. Much appreciated and I will apply what you shared and see how it can benefit my tank!

Oh! Ok, glad you explained that. I have never heard of anyone using All for Reef to keep up nitrates and Phosphate. I don't see how that would be possible.

If I raise Nitrate and Phosphate, I use Brightwell NeoNitro and NeoPhos. Once you hit a happy medium and the two are fairly balanced, then they do well and the system won't produce excess algae.

The Phosphate feeds the zooxanthellae in the corals. Too much phosphates will turn corals brown. Too little, they starve.

Any Nitrate and Phosphates you have is probably from fish waste and feeding. For instance, when a new tank is started and Marco rock is used, it is notorious for sucking up nutrients like phosphates. So you'll start a new system and Nitrate and Phosphate crash to 0 and you get a dinoflagelates and hair algae break out. That can make most Reefers quit as they don't understand that of they had adjusted the Nitrate and Phosphate balance by adding it, the algae would go away as it would starve.

Hope that clears some up, but no, all for reef can cause a reduction in Nitrate and Phosphate, but it will not add it.

 

[CloudReefer]

Oh! Ok, glad you explained that. I have never heard of anyone using All for Reef to keep up nitrates and Phosphate. I don't see how that would be possible.

If I raise Nitrate and Phosphate, I use Brightwell NeoNitro and NeoPhos. Once you hit a happy medium and the two are fairly balanced, then they do well and the system won't produce excess algae.

The Phosphate feeds the zooxanthellae in the corals. Too much phosphates will turn corals brown. Too little, they starve.

Any Nitrate and Phosphates you have is probably from fish waste and feeding. For instance, when a new tank is started and Marco rock is used, it is notorious for sucking up nutrients like phosphates. So you'll start a new system and Nitrate and Phosphate crash to 0 and you get a dinoflagelates and hair algae break out. That can make most Reefers quit as they don't understand that of they had adjusted the Nitrate and Phosphate balance by adding it, the algae would go away as it would starve.

Hope that clears some up, but no, all for reef can cause a reduction in Nitrate and Phosphate, but it will not add it.

Definitely true on the A4R lol That's how I got dinos. I didn't realize it would lower nutrients when I started dosing and everything dropped to 0.0 for weeks until I realized what was going on. In addition to that about 66% of my rock was dry marco rock, the rest was TBS live rock from Florida. I couldn't keep phosphates up to save my life, then all of a sudden bam I was at .6 phosphates in like a week. I'm sure the marco had saturated itself with PO4 and was releasing it back into the water. Luckily that coincided with my attempt to raise phosphates anyway to combat the dinos I had caused. I can't visually see the dinos anymore for the most part, though when I take samples from my sandbed I can see some LCA under a microscope. Not real worried about that though.

I feed primarily frozen, so yup on the phosphates from feeding!

I prefer to use my resources on livestock etc., so instead of buying premade nitrates and phosphates (not that I haven't before) I mix dry calcium nitrate and trisodium phosphate with RO for nutrient adjustments. I like this though because I can customize the strength of the mix. With my water volume and the concentration I mix them at, 1.0mL of the nitrate mix gives me almost exactly 1.0ppm nitrates, and 1.0mL of the phosphates gives me almost exactly a .02 increase in phosphates. This is especially helpful in the mornings when I'm dosing because I'm usually half asleep and having to do something like .06mL or something would be a pita.

I did not know that about the phosphates affecting color! That's good to know and another diagnostic tool I can use. Thank you for sharing! My literal favorite part of this hobby is that I learn something new every day, and there is no end to the new things to learn.

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

Definitely true on the A4R lol That's how I got dinos. I didn't realize it would lower nutrients when I started dosing and everything dropped to 0.0 for weeks until I realized what was going on. In addition to that about 66% of my rock was dry marco rock, the rest was TBS live rock from Florida. I couldn't keep phosphates up to save my life, then all of a sudden bam I was at .6 phosphates in like a week. I'm sure the marco had saturated itself with PO4 and was releasing it back into the water. Luckily that coincided with my attempt to raise phosphates anyway to combat the dinos I had caused. I can't visually see the dinos anymore for the most part, though when I take samples from my sandbed I can see some LCA under a microscope. Not real worried about that though.

I feed primarily frozen, so yup on the phosphates from feeding!

I prefer to use my resources on livestock etc., so instead of buying premade nitrates and phosphates (not that I haven't before) I mix dry calcium nitrate and trisodium phosphate with RO for nutrient adjustments. I like this though because I can customize the strength of the mix. With my water volume and the concentration I mix them at, 1.0mL of the nitrate mix gives me almost exactly 1.0ppm nitrates, and 1.0mL of the phosphates gives me almost exactly a .02 increase in phosphates. This is especially helpful in the mornings when I'm dosing because I'm usually half asleep and having to do something like .06mL or something would be a pita.

I did not know that about the phosphates affecting color! That's good to know and another diagnostic tool I can use. Thank you for sharing! My literal favorite part of this hobby is that I learn something new every day, and there is no end to the new things to learn.

Anytime, glad to share what I've learned. It sounds like you have a great handle on things, just a small adjustment. With that said, your corals looks fantastic, congratulations!

 

[Reefering1]

Seems you have a decent handle on things. And yes, there is a correlation between nitrate and kh. There is a inverse ratio of alkalinity gained to nitrate consumed by the bacteria producing the alk via afr and carbon dosing. I barely understand it myself, @Randy Holmes-Farley would be the man to explain it better...

 

[Pod_01]

Just to add, I suspect you are using Tropic Marin NP Bacto Balance. So the N and P in the name actually means this carbon source contains N/NO3 and P/PO4. So in theory you do not need to add additional nitrate.
I have similar tank and I also dose TM NP BB and I use 0.4ml a day. But I do feed pellets Fauna Marin soft Multi Mix, fish looks great and they produce coral food.

Here are my numbers:

And some corals:

Good luck,

 

[CloudReefer]

Just to add, I suspect you are using Tropic Marin NP Bacto Balance. So the N and P in the name actually means this carbon source contains N/NO3 and P/PO4. So in theory you do not need to add additional nitrate.
I have similar tank and I also dose TM NP BB and I use 0.4ml a day. But I do feed pellets Fauna Marin soft Multi Mix, fish looks great and they produce coral food.

Here are my numbers:

And some corals:

Good luck,

Correct, NP Bacto Balance however if I stop adding nitrate I lose about 1.0-1.5 ppm per day and will hit zero pretty fast. The N & P add up to very little in the bacto if I am remembering correctly.

Oh and what do you think of the FM multi mix? I was just looking at some last night because I need something for my autofeeder but my TDO pellets float and like 85% go down the overflow. :/

Gorgeous corals!!

 

[CloudReefer]

Seems you have a decent handle on things. And yes, there is a correlation between nitrate and kh. There is a inverse ratio of alkalinity gained to nitrate consumed by the bacteria producing the alk via afr and carbon dosing. I barely understand it myself, @Randy Holmes-Farley would be the man to explain it better...

What little I know about this I learned from Randy either from posts here or from his articles.

 

[Pod_01]

Correct, NP Bacto Balance however if I stop adding nitrate I lose about 1.0-1.5 ppm per day and will hit zero pretty fast. The N & P add up to very little in the bacto if I am remembering correctly.

Oh and what do you think of the FM multi mix? I was just looking at some last night because I need something for my autofeeder but my TDO pellets float and like 85% go down the overflow. :/

Gorgeous corals!!

I do like the pellets, the fish are nice and fat, aggression is down.
I tried other foods like frozen but I just don’t think the food density is there. These pellets seem to be packed with goodies.
I do feed 4 times a day and I have 7 fish in my tank.

What do you do for filtration? Fleece, socks …

I only use skimmer and bit of GAC. Nothing else for filtration, I assume the corals are the main filter. So my NO3 is always as shown in picture, sometimes 1ppm.

 

[CloudReefer]

I do like the pellets, the fish are nice and fat, aggression is down.
I tried other foods like frozen but I just don’t think the food density is there. These pellets seem to be packed with goodies.
I do feed 4 times a day and I have 7 fish in my tank.

What do you do for filtration? Fleece, socks …

I only use skimmer and bit of GAC. Nothing else for filtration, I assume the corals are the main filter. So my NO3 is always as shown in picture, sometimes 1ppm.

Imma have to try that MultiMix out. I feed frozen 2x per day and want my autofeeder to hit them with a small lunch in the afternoons and the multimix sounds perfect. I don't always get home from work in-time to feed before most of my fish are asleep.

I generally feed very heavy, and my fish eat a lot of the frozen so I think that makes up for whatever lack of density there may be. They always seem to want more though and I'm happy to give it. I generally try to feed until they just don't wanna eat anymore. My CUC also is very well-fed by extension, which is great because so far, knock on wood, none of my hermits have tried to kill any of my snails. And before they died due to an accidental application of H202 in my display, my peppermints didn't mess with any corals. I even had a gorilla crab in my display for months before I realized what it was and it didn't mess with anything. I sometimes give my nassarius snails a bit of frozen silverside fish and you could put a piece right in front of the gorilla and it'd just ignore it. lol It's in my sump now.

For filtration, I use a skimmer set fairly dry and a sock on my primary drain, nothing on my secondary. I tried sockless for a few months but the amount of carbon I had to use to keep the phosphates down seemed excessive to me and it was really unstable, so I went back to using socks. I use 1/3 cup of GAC to keep contaminants out/low and weekly 10% water changes.

 

[Timfish]

and a couple more, plus a short vid.

Nice pics! But the video doesn't play on my PC. It very well could be new polyps forming as mentioned above. As the colony grows in diameter, vertically as well as horizontally the polyps will spread apart making room for new polyps between them (like two spots on a balloon spread farther apart as it expands).


FWIW One of the problems research has shown is as the types of DOC change and/or levels rise there may not be any significant indicator there's a problem until a tipping point is reached then there can be significant issues. For more on this Rohwer's book and video and some other videos you may enjoy here's some links:

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas " This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC (carbon dosing) in reef ecosystems and how it can alter coral microbiomes. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Microbial view of Coral Decline

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

BActeria and Sponges

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)

Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching

 

[CloudReefer]

Nice pics! But the video doesn't play on my PC. It very well could be new polyps forming as mentioned above. As the colony grows in diameter, vertically as well as horizontally the polyps will spread apart making room for new polyps between them (like two spots on a balloon spread farther apart as it expands).


FWIW One of the problems research has shown is as the types of DOC change and/or levels rise there may not be any significant indicator there's a problem until a tipping point is reached then there can be significant issues. For more on this Rohwer's book and video and some other videos you may enjoy here's some links:

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas " This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC (carbon dosing) in reef ecosystems and how it can alter coral microbiomes. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Microbial view of Coral Decline

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

BActeria and Sponges

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)

Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching

Woah! This is awesome! I have a lot of homework to do this weekend! I'm going to buy that book right now.

I had read that dosing vodka or vinegar as a carbon source could eventually lead to problems. I seem to recall it takes a year or two to start seeing the issues. However, the reason I chose the bacto balance is because I was under the impression this wouldn't happen with that product. It's entirely possible I was misled by marketing or am not remembering accurately though.

Welp, I know what I'll be doing this weekend

Thanks for all the links that's super helpful!