Some corals wasting away

[m0jjen]

Hey their fellow reefers.

Sorry for the wall of text but i wanto be as elaborated as possible to get adequate help.

For some pretty unknown reason some selected few corals are wasting away and have been for quite some time. I cant for the life of me find out why. I current have 2 types of cyano, green in the fragtank and red in the display. Confirmed cyano and not spirulina in both cases. I really hope to save atleast the golden torch at this point. Aswell as rid the cyano.

Im doing pretty much the red sea reef care program but with a calcium reactor. so dosing colors A, B, C, D. I've stopped carbon and aminos completely.

Most corals seem to do okay and grow atleast some. Abit dull in colors - id call it washed out, maybe even signs of browning

Todays measurements:

Salinity 1.025 - Refractometer + Milwaukee digital tester
Ca: 480 (been climbing up for some reason, dont think its over and tho) - Red sea test
Kh: stable 8.05 - 8.30 up and down abit day by day - Alkatronic and red sea KH test
Mg: 1320 - Red sea test
No3: 4-8 depending on feeding been hovering around that number. I raised it from 1-2 ppm to combat cyano without luck, went as high as 15 ppm. - Red sea pro test
Po4: 0.04 been rock solid 0.04 for quite some time.
PH: 7.9 - 8.15

All test are new. opened about 1 month ago.

System:

Red sea reefer 625 xxl with a ~200 liter fragtank sharing sump. Total effektive water volume about 700 liters / 180 us gallonsish give or take.

Lights - 3 x xr30w gen3 pro running the WWC modified AB+ and 4x 80w retrofitted Ati bulbs (2 coral+ 2 blue+). Bulbs are on for 7 hours. 11.30 - 19.00

Bar is about 150-200 at the bottom and 350 at the top of the rocks at peak.

Filtration is based of a Maxspect aeraqua duo ad600 skimmer and a clarisea filter. Pretty much it.

Flow: 4x mp40qd running at 40% each and shifting between reefcrest - constant and pulse mode (all pumps have different settings at different times)

Maintainance is pretty basic.

Daily:
* Scrape glas as needed
* Feed about 2-3 cubes of frozen (mixed of brine, mysis, cyclops) And about 10-15 pellets from feeder. I dont concider it to be overfeeding at all.

Weekly:
* WC 10% red sea blue bucket
* Clean skimmercup

Monthly:
* Clean probes
* Change carbon

Inhabitats:
Mostly tangs and wrasses. Got myself a nice copperbanded butterfly which might have been bothering the acans (never seen it). So i moved that whole rock into my fragtank but they kept wasting away so i doubt it actually. Same for golden torch - Its in the fragtank and dont improve at all.

Thinks i've tried sofar in the following order:

* Stopped carbon and aminos - Roughly 3 months ago - Little to no change at all - Still dont dose it
* Reduced feeding abit and try to poor a little at a time so that its getting eaten - Rougly 2 months ago until now
* Tuned the skimmer from dry to wet - Little to no change
* Followed and started the microbacter7 dosing - Might have improved abit but not that much
* Remove as much cyano as i can every WC and blow over the rocks with a turkeybaster twice a week.
* Dipped corals to exclude pests - Been awhile since and i dont think they're in a shape to be dipped again atm.

Things that might cause it?

* Since most my corals dont grow that well even if they grow it might be a traceelement overdose from the red sea A, B, C, D?
* Faulty phosphate reading since the cyano consumes it? 0.04 aint that high but the cyano needs some to grow i guess.

I dont think i've changed to much to fast - I've done 1 thing, waited about a month then another change. Hope someone might have some tips!

 

[Deep]

Great detail.

Only thing that stands out is that a lot of the changes you have made is based on the assumption that Cyano must be due to high phosphates. So you have cut down on feedings, changed to skim dry.

I have seen Cyano appear in tanks with high or low phospates - it really doesnt matter. There is some evidence that is caused due to an imbalance in the nutrients or generally taking advantage of any instability affecting the biological processes in the tank.

You have been measuring 0.04 for a while now - assuming thats with the Hanna, then it could even be 0.02 given the tolerance for the checker, which is very low. Also your actions might have served to push it further down.

Also you are dosing red sea colors, have you done an ICP to check the levels of the trace elements ? It is certainly possible to overdo it although it is not very clear what happens when you do.
I would stop dosing trace elements and up the water changes.

You mention certain corals are not doing well ? Which ones are they ?

 

[m0jjen]

Great detail.

Only thing that stands out is that a lot of the changes you have made is based on the assumption that Cyano must be due to high phosphates. So you have cut down on feedings, changed to skim dry.

I have seen Cyano appear in tanks with high or low phospates - it really doesnt matter. There is some evidence that is caused due to an imbalance in the nutrients or generally taking advantage of any instability affecting the biological processes in the tank.

You have been measuring 0.04 for a while now - assuming thats with the Hanna, then it could even be 0.02 given the tolerance for the checker, which is very low. Also your actions might have served to push it further down.

Also you are dosing red sea colors, have you done an ICP to check the levels of the trace elements ? It is certainly possible to overdo it although it is not very clear what happens when you do.
I would stop dosing trace elements and up the water changes.

You mention certain corals are not doing well ? Which ones are they ?

Most corals do okay, the once's dying are acans, my golden torch and LPS in general dont color up to nicely. No corals really color up that good.

SPS is understandable since i recently got AEFW which id rid and they all sit in my fragtank after a 8 week dipping routine. Flow and light isnt quite as good as in the display.

I cant really say much besides that corals dont have good PE LPS and SPS. Some better than other, they seem cranky and dull all in all, both in behavior and color.

Phosphate kit used is red sea pro. Tried all the hanna po4 / p / po4 ulr hated them all haha. Red sea pro seems to be pretty accurate when compared to ICP. My hanna werent. Probably my fault tho. But given the accuracy, human error with color matching and what not it could be alot lower indeed.

Possibly even 0 at times. The feeding statement is abit false. Didnt really reduce as much as controll it more with smaller increments of feeding to not just dump a truckload in. Making sure it gets utilized.

 

[theocorals537]

i have ecotech radions , and for a long time i had really bad luck with lps. i lost about 10 thousand worth of my favorite hammers, frogs, torches that ive grown for years under metal halide. check your light settings , alot of the preset settings have wavelengths that arent useful for zooanthelle inside the corals, so the tank looks nice, but the corals are starving. currently running my radions 15% uv 15% white 0% green 0% red 80% royal and 100% blue

 

[m0jjen]

i have ecotech radions , and for a long time i had really bad luck with lps. i lost about 10 thousand worth of my favorite hammers, frogs, torches that ive grown for years under metal halide. check your light settings , alot of the preset settings have wavelengths that arent useful for zooanthelle inside the corals, so the tank looks nice, but the corals are starving. currently running my radions 15% uv 15% white 0% green 0% red 80% royal and 100% blue

AB+ is a proven spectrum with alot of science backing it up. I've had alot of succsess with it previously.

Same tank same light just about 1.5 years ago. Thanks for the input!

 

[SPR1968]

AB+ is a proven spectrum with alot of science backing it up. I've had alot of succsess with it previously.

Same tank same light just about 1.5 years ago. Thanks for the input!

On the basis of your picture here, which looks beautiful by the way, it might be worth doing a triton water test or similar.

Your dosing the RS coral colours but are you testing the levels or just going by calcium uptake or just adding them because that could be a cause If over dosed. You only need small amounts, infact in both my systems I add them manually once a week and probably under dosed.

You could also try turning the MP40’s up from 40% to increase flow and that should also help with the cyno bacteria. My S650 is a similar size and although I only have 2 MP40’s there at 100% power and the system could easily take some more flow, although it’s adequate

Your water parameters are pretty spot on, your lights looked like there working fine from the above picture (although I would turn the white up personally at least in the daytime), so just a few thoughts.

 

[m0jjen]

On the basis of your picture here, which looks beautiful by the way, it might be worth doing a triton water test or similar.

Your dosing the RS coral colours but are you testing the levels or just going by calcium uptake or just adding them because that could be a cause If over dosed.

You could also try turning the MP40’s up from 40% to increase flow and that should also help with the cyno bacteria. My S650 is a similar size and although I only have 2 MP40’s there at 100% power and the system could easily take some more flow, although it’s adequate

Your water parameters are pretty spot on, your lights looked like there working fine from the above picture (although I would turn the white up personally at least in the daytime), so just a few thoughts.

Alot has happened since, had a kid, had to move the tank since the my old mancave was the kids room, rescaped the tank and so on. Move vent flawless and all, problems came about 6 months after. Cyano has been presistant from premove tho.

Tried ALOT higher flow. LPS didnt like it much haha.. The red sea colors are just dosed at low doses, probably under what recommended (2 ml / day / 700ish litre). Havent been bothered meassuring since im running a CaRx. Gonna cut the trace now and do afew waterchanges the upcoming days.

 

[SPR1968]

Alot has happened since, had a kid, had to move the tank since the my old mancave was the kids room, rescaped the tank and so on. Move vent flawless and all, problems came about 6 months after. Cyano has been presistant from premove tho.

Tried ALOT higher flow. LPS didnt like it much haha.. The red sea colors are just dosed at low doses, probably under what recommended (2 ml / day / 700ish litre). Havent been bothered meassuring since im running a CaRx. Gonna cut the trace now and do afew waterchanges the upcoming days.

In my S650 I dose coral colours of around 15-20ml once a week and that’s a fully stocked mixed reef (pictures on first page of my build thread to see stocking difference) Your adding 14ml in comparison

In my 2000 litre system I dose 45ml once a week as that’s still growing out but has a lot of corals

The large system uses a calcium reactor and it’s virtually impossible to know calcium uptake so in both tanks I add the amounts once a week. I sort of use a method I wouldn’t recommend, called ‘guessing’ but it works for me! Lol

I would maybe get the triton test done, but perhaps stop adding the coral colours until you get the results, or stop and see if it things improve with the water changes

You can buy the coral colours test kit, I did, and sent it straight back when I saw the contents and instructions!

 

[bearpeidog]

I have the same thing here with SPS. They do fine then one day, the coral will die. Done Triton, very consistent water parameters all in proper range. I think it’s bacteria in my well water but I have no way to prove it. Good luck and I hope you find the answer. I know it can be frustrating when everything is stable and things still die off. Truely hoping you find the answer!

 

[m0jjen]

I have the same thing here with SPS. They do fine then one day, the coral will die. Done Triton, very consistent water parameters all in proper range. I think it’s bacteria in my well water but I have no way to prove it. Good luck and I hope you find the answer. I know it can be frustrating when everything is stable and things still die off. Truely hoping you find the answer!

I forgot to mention that. I changed everything in my ro unit and cleaned it, 0 tds water. Same source since start of tank.

A picture of what i mean by dull washed out corals. This is something simular to "tyree rainbow stylo" or what its called in in the US



Should look very simular to this picture:

 

[RMS18]

I had similar issues in the past. The corals were dull and not vibrant even under blues light. Faded, dull, dry were the 3 words I used to describe. I've come to the conclusion that some tanks need more nutrients. If lps are not full and puffy then they don't like the water. One of my nano tanks runs out of no3 quickly, my button scoly is the first to tell me by shrinking. I'll dose some no3 and within hours it's full and puffy again. People say sps need ULN but I get the best colors and growth when I have .07-.1 of po4, no3 hovers around 10-15ppm. I have some cyano in high flow and low flow areas, small patches and guess what it's normal. The ocean has some areas of cyano. Stop trying to rid every inch of it, it's a sign you reef is alive. I'd suggest you raise po4 and no3 and keep the big 3 stable, remove any carbon. Carbon dries the water out imo and experience, gives acros that dull dry look. My tank is only 2 years old, started with dry rock and acros are anywhere from 1 year to 6 months old. Here's some quick pictures so you know I'm not just talking without some proof.

 

[SaltISlife]

Imo lack of nutrients. Stop chasing nitrates and phosphates.

My tank is at 40ppm nitrates on any given day. Right now its at 80ppm. Yes.. 80 ppm.. and my gonioporas and torch corals (6 types) and other lps like hammers and a massive elegance are bigger than ive ever seen them. And when i say bigger.. i mean as big or bigger than basketballs.

Not saying go to 80ppm nitrates. I plan to do a 50% water change. I recently had a bacterial infection and antibiotics killed off alot of denitrate anerobic bacteria which kept nitrates down to 20-40ppm. But yea.. i dont even check my phosphates. I have an api kit.. and it reads .25 at its lowest. So its probly lower.. but 0.04 seems low to me.


Remember zoozanthellie needs nitrate and phosphates.. its an algae just like the stuff that grows on your rocks.. no different.

 

[m0jjen]

In my S650 I dose coral colours of around 15-20ml once a week and that’s a fully stocked mixed reef (pictures on first page of my build thread to see stocking difference) Your adding 14ml in comparison

In my 2000 litre system I dose 45ml once a week as that’s still growing out but has a lot of corals

The large system uses a calcium reactor and it’s virtually impossible to know calcium uptake so in both tanks I add the amounts once a week. I sort of use a method I wouldn’t recommend, called ‘guessing’ but it works for me! Lol

I would maybe get the triton test done, but perhaps stop adding the coral colours until you get the results, or stop and see if it things improve with the water changes

You can buy the coral colours test kit, I did, and sent it straight back when I saw the contents and instructions!

Yeah the color test isnt something i wanto use. Heard its trash. Hard to use and hard to get accurate results. Ill cut the colors for now and see if it does anything in a month or so. Could cut the dosage to 1 ml every other day once it starts looking up i guess =)

Really appreciate the input!

Gonna do the triton ye, to check trace aswell as testkit accuracy!

I had similar issues in the past. The corals were dull and not vibrant even under blues light. Faded, dull, dry were the 3 words I used to describe. I've come to the conclusion that some tanks need more nutrients. If lps are not full and puffy then they don't like the water. One of my nano tanks runs out of no3 quickly, my button scoly is the first to tell me by shrinking. I'll dose some no3 and within hours it's full and puffy again. People say sps need ULN but I get the best colors and growth when I have .07-.1 of po4, no3 hovers around 10-15ppm. I have some cyano in high flow and low flow areas, small patches and guess what it's normal. The ocean has some areas of cyano. Stop trying to rid every inch of it, it's a sign you reef is alive. I'd suggest you raise po4 and no3 and keep the big 3 stable, remove any carbon. Carbon dries the water out imo and experience, gives acros that dull dry look. My tank is only 2 years old, started with dry rock and acros are anywhere from 1 year to 6 months old. Here's some quick pictures so you know I'm not just talking without some proof.

Never said nor have I chased ULNS. just trying a program out, which im not following to well since i want 10ish no3 and 0.05ish po4. Im not trying to rid it completely even it if would be nice. Id like to stop it from overgrowing pretty much everything.

Thanks for your input!

Imo lack of nutrients. Stop chasing nitrates and phosphates.

My tank is at 40ppm nitrates on any given day. Right now its at 80ppm. Yes.. 80 ppm.. and my gonioporas and torch corals (6 types) and other lps like hammers and a massive elegance are bigger than ive ever seen them. And when i say bigger.. i mean as big or bigger than basketballs.

Not saying go to 80ppm nitrates. I plan to do a 50% water change. I recently had a bacterial infection and antibiotics killed off alot of denitrate anerobic bacteria which kept nitrates down to 20-40ppm. But yea.. i dont even check my phosphates. I have an api kit.. and it reads .25 at its lowest. So its probly lower.. but 0.04 seems low to me.


Remember zoozanthellie needs nitrate and phosphates.. its an algae just like the stuff that grows on your rocks.. no different.

Not chasing nutrients. Im just trying to figure out whats causing it and fueling the cyano and or killing my corals. Never tried to be ULNS. Carbon was dosed at 5 ml / 700 litres of water simply as an attempt to maintain bacteria. I dont use media for PO4 reduction, i dont use carbon for nutrient reduction.
Thank you for your input!

 

[m0jjen]

 

[m0jjen]

So the triton is in. Only thing i've noted is the high phosphate which probably got alot higher once I started pooring food in again (triton test taken ~1 week after after last post). Apart from that I cant say i find anything.

Will ease abit on the feeding and throw in afew waterchanges (already did 4 15% since last post).

The golden torch wasted away and acans seemingly continue to do so. Ideas beside PO4?

 

[redeyejedi]

Imo lack of nutrients. Stop chasing nitrates and phosphates.

My tank is at 40ppm nitrates on any given day. Right now its at 80ppm. Yes.. 80 ppm.. and my gonioporas and torch corals (6 types) and other lps like hammers and a massive elegance are bigger than ive ever seen them. And when i say bigger.. i mean as big or bigger than basketballs.

Not saying go to 80ppm nitrates. I plan to do a 50% water change. I recently had a bacterial infection and antibiotics killed off alot of denitrate anerobic bacteria which kept nitrates down to 20-40ppm. But yea.. i dont even check my phosphates. I have an api kit.. and it reads .25 at its lowest. So its probly lower.. but 0.04 seems low to me.


Remember zoozanthellie needs nitrate and phosphates.. its an algae just like the stuff that grows on your rocks.. no different.

Its amazing how many people have crazy low N03 and P04 and wonder why LPS is dying lol. Especially p04.

 

[m0jjen]

Its amazing how many people have crazy low N03 and P04 and wonder why LPS is dying lol. Especially p04.

Do you refer to me as some people? If so i have a current no3 at 10ish and po4 at 0.11.

 

[redeyejedi]

Do you refer to me as some people? If so i have a current no3 at 10ish and po4 at 0.11.

People in general, not you personally. Although your original p04 at .04 was low for torches, hammers etc.

 

[m0jjen]

People in general, not you personally. Although your original p04 at .04 was low for torches, hammers etc.

As a mather a fact i've never had problems with LPS earlier and have been running po4 at 0.02-0.04 for 10 or so years. Making that statement invalid. I do know LPS prefer higher nutrients, dont mean they straight up die from the prefered range. SPS prefer low nutrients but WWC run 15 no3 and 0.1 po4. Also making such a statement invalid.

While i do fully understand that tankes in different stages and or maturitylevels will make such deviations more possible. This hobby isnt black or white. You can run 0/0 nutrients if you have an high enough in and and out through the day matching perfectly. Altho, 0/0 without enough in would obviously crash the tank and definitly kill the corals.

 

[redeyejedi]

As a mather a fact i've never had problems with LPS earlier and have been running po4 at 0.02-0.04 for 10 or so years. Making that statement invalid. I do know LPS prefer higher nutrients, dont mean they straight up die from the prefered range. SPS prefer low nutrients but WWC run 15 no3 and 0.1 po4. Also making such a statement invalid.

While i do fully understand that tankes in different stages and or maturitylevels will make such deviations more possible. This hobby isnt black or white. You can run 0/0 nutrients if you have an high enough in and and out through the day matching perfectly. Altho, 0/0 without enough in would obviously crash the tank and definitly kill the corals.

I did say not you personally didnt i? Yes when heavy in then 0 isnt a problem but people generally wont up the feeding at that stage and wonder why things die.