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I don’t agree they are doing very well. They may hold their color but growth would be glacial.
So lets talk LFS lights and their frag tanks...
- Thread starter partimereefer
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As a LFS employe we don't aim to grow coral we just aim to house it untill it is bought. Let's say you have a hammer coral and some acropora in the same tank. If they start growing the hammer coral will start stinging the acropora and we lose potentially dozens to hundreds of dollars depending on the acropora
Ok first off kessil do not put out a lot of PAR in my experience, that doesn’t mean you can’t grow corals like montipora and acripora however for a lot of reasons I’m not a fan of kessil. I use reefbreeders photon v2+ which has been popping up in Florida in some LFS, I personally found that to be the best bang for the buck and a 2 year full service warranty either that or you can spend more and get ai hydra lights but I feel the photon v2 was by far the best choice because costs less, puts out more par, less plugs needed because the lights come in different sizes, 2 year warranty. Ok next I doubt acro’s would do good at less than 100 par, I would personally only recommend the 2 brands I listed not ecotech because you really don’t need to spend that much money and in my experience the eco tech radion light up the whole room which is unappealing to me.
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Here's the PPFD from a LFS that has very nice growing corals. Daily Light Integral is 5.6. They run Radions strongly weighted towards the blue end of the spectrum while the store is open, but with extra whitish light from about 7am to 11am.
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Here are some Daily Light Integral numbers I took in Hawaii.
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I should explain these numbers: A data logger recorded PPFD over the course of the photoperiod in the air, at a depth of 2 inches in a Hawaiian tidepool (it maintained a constant depth since it was fed water through a blow hole (long story), and then compared those to DLI in an aquarium. The aquarium had a 12-hour photoperiod, so instantaneous PPFD = 130 micromol/m2/sec.
Seems like these lfs are more like coral “butchers”. Not meant in a disrespectful way...
My old lfs grew their corals in large tanks with a lot of hydras turned up. They had different tanks for different types of corals. The bluer tanks were for lps and zoas. The Acroporas got stronger light with a good bit white mixed in there.
My old lfs grew their corals in large tanks with a lot of hydras turned up. They had different tanks for different types of corals. The bluer tanks were for lps and zoas. The Acroporas got stronger light with a good bit white mixed in there.
Our goal as a LFS is not to grow coral but to "babysit" it. If it's a money thing If a coral dies we lose money, if a coral grows we make minimal extra money so the most profitable thing is to keep corals healthy but not care about growth then sell them.
Great info. So is this sustained mid range PAR over eleven hours equivalent to a more intense PAR over a six period?
Perhaps my longish ramp up is doing more than I thought and my corals are getting light for too long?
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Can you provide any details on your lighting schedule? Any lux or PAR numbers you might have would be great.
I can send the details when I am in front of my computer but off the top of my head here is the big picture...
I run an Ecotech Radion XR15 G4 Pro on an Ecotech Radion mount over an IM Nuvo 20 tank. Lights are on for an extended period 7am to 9pm but with low output blue periods leading up to long ramps on either side of a 12:00-6:00 40% intensity period. In that peak my SPS are seeing 250-280 PAR.
Man I wish I had a LFS that was rocking those stats. I say that but always get the best stuff for the best prices out of some guys house. My LFS uses a lot of whites to be as transparent as possible but they don’t look nearly as attractive unless you know what to look for. The whiter tanks he has are great for catching pests or other issues
We also need to be careful not to burn new corals when they come in. The shallow tanks do not take alot of light to burn new corals. We run xr30s on our main frag table the lights are set to less than 50% intensity. We do get good growth we often frag the eggcrate for corals that overgrow the plugs.
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LFS- 6"-8" frag tanks with corals only 1/4" from surface.
Compared to our tanks, average 20"+ deep.
Not hard to fry a coral that shallow, no matter the intensity. That is why most have the lights hung so high.
Compared to our tanks, average 20"+ deep.
Not hard to fry a coral that shallow, no matter the intensity. That is why most have the lights hung so high.
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I spoke to a lfs here and asked to look at the coral under white lighting before i buy it, I asked why do you run only blue and he just said it makes the corals look prettier and it's easier to sell, it makes the colours pop and your drawn in. He also said the corals that they grow out or buy in are all grown under whiter light but in the customer part for the sale of the corals they are under blue. They do run their display as a whiter light. Plus they are happy to show the corals under white so you can see how it would look closer to how you might run your own tank, and not be disappointed when you get it home.
I assume that blue light doesn't put out as much par regardless of fixture?
I assume that blue light doesn't put out as much par regardless of fixture?
I too run my lights on a schedule similar to partitmereefer stated above. I have Radion 15 gen 4's. The lights sit about 8 inches off the water but the acros are about 10 inches from the top right now since they are frags. I recently rented a par meter from BRS(great deal if you want to check par) and discovered my acros were sitting in about only 115-130 par values with mostly blue lights. I assumed by looking the par was closer to 200... wrong...
The acros really haven't grown however the tank is less than 2 years old and I began with dry rock. I was told it could take up to 2 years for acros to grow. My duncans, hammers, zoas, blasto, lepto for the most part sitting in par values from 50-80 have all grown, in particular the duncans. I started with I think 3 heads and have maybe 10 in about a year. I had one hammer which yet went from one head to 5 quickly but for some reason has fallen off while the other one went from 1 head to 4 and is still going strong. They are under the same light conditions in the tank. Who knows why the other one began to die off. Nothing is near the hammers to sting it or for the hammers to sting.
Anyway, as far as acros, I noticed in the past month, 4 out of 5 of them began to encrust and sprout branches. They have colored up nicely and it all happened at once. I did stop doing weekly water changes. I now do them every 10-14 days, which bumped my phosphates from zero to .04 and the nitrates from near zero to about 40( I over fed the fish to bump them too). Once I did that the acros colored(a couple were pale) up and began to encrust. I could be a coincidence but I doubt it.
I'm thinking of adding another light source to one side of the tank where I have an Oregon tort and another acro which needs more intense light. When I rented the par meter, I took a light from my biocube for a few minutes and realized I could get the par closer to 225-260 even well below the surface. Once the acros grow a few inches they will sit in par above 300). Instead of bumping the whites, I'm probably going to add another light and keep the blues at 100% most of the day and keep the whites from zero to 40% during the day and run the lights around 50% power. I'm hoping that will get the acros to grow a bit faster yet not blast the chalices a bit lower in the tank on the opposites side of the tank. I'm hoping this will end my tinkering.
I know 3 lights is odd, but in photography you can get optimal ights using the zone system. I'm thinking of trying that with a reef tank, run my light in zones to keep corals in the par values they like the best. Has anyone else tried setting zones other than just light falloff?
Mike
The acros really haven't grown however the tank is less than 2 years old and I began with dry rock. I was told it could take up to 2 years for acros to grow. My duncans, hammers, zoas, blasto, lepto for the most part sitting in par values from 50-80 have all grown, in particular the duncans. I started with I think 3 heads and have maybe 10 in about a year. I had one hammer which yet went from one head to 5 quickly but for some reason has fallen off while the other one went from 1 head to 4 and is still going strong. They are under the same light conditions in the tank. Who knows why the other one began to die off. Nothing is near the hammers to sting it or for the hammers to sting.
Anyway, as far as acros, I noticed in the past month, 4 out of 5 of them began to encrust and sprout branches. They have colored up nicely and it all happened at once. I did stop doing weekly water changes. I now do them every 10-14 days, which bumped my phosphates from zero to .04 and the nitrates from near zero to about 40( I over fed the fish to bump them too). Once I did that the acros colored(a couple were pale) up and began to encrust. I could be a coincidence but I doubt it.
I'm thinking of adding another light source to one side of the tank where I have an Oregon tort and another acro which needs more intense light. When I rented the par meter, I took a light from my biocube for a few minutes and realized I could get the par closer to 225-260 even well below the surface. Once the acros grow a few inches they will sit in par above 300). Instead of bumping the whites, I'm probably going to add another light and keep the blues at 100% most of the day and keep the whites from zero to 40% during the day and run the lights around 50% power. I'm hoping that will get the acros to grow a bit faster yet not blast the chalices a bit lower in the tank on the opposites side of the tank. I'm hoping this will end my tinkering.
I know 3 lights is odd, but in photography you can get optimal ights using the zone system. I'm thinking of trying that with a reef tank, run my light in zones to keep corals in the par values they like the best. Has anyone else tried setting zones other than just light falloff?Mike
I too run my lights on a schedule similar to partitmereefer stated above. I have Radion 15 gen 4's. The lights sit about 8 inches off the water but the acros are about 10 inches from the top right now since they are frags. I recently rented a par meter from BRS(great deal if you want to check par) and discovered my acros were sitting in about only 115-130 par values with mostly blue lights. I assumed by looking the par was closer to 200... wrong...
The acros really haven't grown however the tank is less than 2 years old and I began with dry rock. I was told it could take up to 2 years for acros to grow. My duncans, hammers, zoas, blasto, lepto for the most part sitting in par values from 50-80 have all grown, in particular the duncans. I started with I think 3 heads and have maybe 10 in about a year. I had one hammer which yet went from one head to 5 quickly but for some reason has fallen off while the other one went from 1 head to 4 and is still going strong. They are under the same light conditions in the tank. Who knows why the other one began to die off. Nothing is near the hammers to sting it or for the hammers to sting.
Anyway, as far as acros, I noticed in the past month, 4 out of 5 of them began to encrust and sprout branches. They have colored up nicely and it all happened at once. I did stop doing weekly water changes. I now do them every 10-14 days, which bumped my phosphates from zero to .04 and the nitrates from near zero to about 40( I over fed the fish to bump them too). Once I did that the acros colored(a couple were pale) up and began to encrust. I could be a coincidence but I doubt it.
I'm thinking of adding another light source to one side of the tank where I have an Oregon tort and another acro which needs more intense light. When I rented the par meter, I took a light from my biocube for a few minutes and realized I could get the par closer to 225-260 even well below the surface. Once the acros grow a few inches they will sit in par above 300). Instead of bumping the whites, I'm probably going to add another light and keep the blues at 100% most of the day and keep the whites from zero to 40% during the day and run the lights around 50% power. I'm hoping that will get the acros to grow a bit faster yet not blast the chalices a bit lower in the tank on the opposites side of the tank. I'm hoping this will end my tinkering.
Mike
It cost me around $1k in corals before I got ahold of a par meter and found that my 250+par was actually around 125. It was around 50 on the bottom. Zoas were happy...
I jumped up to 300+ par and corals stopped dying.
Not sure how people are growing Acroporas with par in the 150 range.
The philosophy of a LFS to just keep critters alive long enough to sell them, really only works with fish. Fish typically grow much slower than coral, they're kept in spaces that are much to small, and some don't even feed well. There's really not much you can do to increase the value of a fish before you sell it.
Corals are different. Smart LFS owners understand this. If they buy a frag for $20, they need to sell if for maybe $40. If it doesn't sell pretty quick, and doesn't grow, it's not likely to ever sell, unless the price is dropped, and profit is lost.
Smart LFS owners understand that the larger a coral gets, the more valuable it becomes. So, even if it doesn't sell right away, in a good system, with good lighting, it's value goes up over time. At some point they'll be able to get their $40 out of the coral, or more. If it doubles in size, and they frag it in half, they can price the coral at $20 each and still make their profit.
Keeping a coral tank, in a LFS, that doesn't grow coral, is a waste of money, time, and effort. It's also one of the things that separate the successful mom and pop shops from the here today gone tomorrow mom and pop shops. Every successful mom and pop shop in central Florida, and there's quite a few, have one thing in common. They all invest in good lighting, and grow coral.
Peace
EC
Corals are different. Smart LFS owners understand this. If they buy a frag for $20, they need to sell if for maybe $40. If it doesn't sell pretty quick, and doesn't grow, it's not likely to ever sell, unless the price is dropped, and profit is lost.
Smart LFS owners understand that the larger a coral gets, the more valuable it becomes. So, even if it doesn't sell right away, in a good system, with good lighting, it's value goes up over time. At some point they'll be able to get their $40 out of the coral, or more. If it doubles in size, and they frag it in half, they can price the coral at $20 each and still make their profit.
Keeping a coral tank, in a LFS, that doesn't grow coral, is a waste of money, time, and effort. It's also one of the things that separate the successful mom and pop shops from the here today gone tomorrow mom and pop shops. Every successful mom and pop shop in central Florida, and there's quite a few, have one thing in common. They all invest in good lighting, and grow coral.
Peace
EC
I don’t buy from lfs that can’t grow coral. I always look around for a display tank that has large, healthy, colonies first. If I don’t see that, just frag tanks, I leave.
Same sort of principle for my mechanic. I better see signs that he cares about, and is very familiar with, cars and not just getting your CC.
Frags that are getting just enough to make it to your tank could be on the brink. I want to know that they are going to make it in the long term and that I can ask the lfs for advice from time to time.
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