Sick Volitan Lionfish

[303_Reefer]

Hey ya’ll! I have a large volitan lionfish that’s been acting lathargic and not eating. Then I noticed a heniocus butterfly going to town on his fins. Then noticed some ich spots on the lion. I did a cupramine dose to help with the ich but I think he may be having some gastro issues. I’m seeing something sticking out of his rear end and not sure what’s going on. If anyone has any ideas I’m all years!

 

[OrchidMiss]

@lion king @vetteguy53081
#fishmedic

 

[lion king]

His color is indicating high stress, whether it be to being bullied, sick, or water chemistry. I can't see what you mean from the rear end, but a prolapsed rectum can also occur due to chemical poisoning, including meds like cupramine. A prolapsed rectum can also be caused from a poor diet and poor water quality.

How long have you had him? he looks pretty large, and his stomach seems a little sunken in. What has he been eating, and how often? Have you tested the water parameters, ammonia? Not eating and lethargy can be indicative to few things; from water quality, chemical poisoning, as well as disease, internal parasites.

Advice, remove lion to observation tank with pure optimum water quality. If you have had the lion around 4-5 weeks or less and they stopped eating before you added cupramine, treat with general cure. Feed live food, mollies and ghost shrimp, until they are healthy and belly is more rounded out. Live food will boost immune system. Run observation tank at 1400ppm mg, mg is good for digestion.

Lions from sources running copper and those treated with copper usually do not have a good end.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Can you get us better pictures and a video? I need to see it’s respiration rate and I can’t see the prolapse you are talking about.

What are the water quality parameters?
How long have you had the fish?

Heniochus can really trash a lionfish when they set their minds to it. The big question though, is the heni picking on the lion because it is sick, or did the bullying cause the lion to go downhill?

I dose lionfish with amine chelated copper with no adverse effects at all, but Cupramine can be a bit harsher. You need to ensure the dose is right at 0.50 ppm and don’t go above 0.60

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Agree- heniocus are jerks and will eat coral, nip tankmates and steal food from others. Other treatment is general cure for lions but coppers safe as Jay mentioned is the more effective approach.

 

[303_Reefer]

He’s been in this tank for about a year and a half and has been eating like a pig since. Fed a mix of different frozen foods raw shrimp. Water chemistry is all normal. He started to act lathergic and not eat and that’s when the butterfly started going after his fins. He’s so big I’m not sure I can get him into a QT tank… he’s in a 400 gallon tank with other big fish and he’s been exposed to low doses of cupramine in the past and has never had an issue with it. I may just have to dose the whole tank with General Cure or some sort of antibiotic…

 

[lion king]

He’s been in this tank for about a year and a half and has been eating like a pig since. Fed a mix of different frozen foods raw shrimp. Water chemistry is all normal. He started to act lathergic and not eat and that’s when the butterfly started going after his fins. He’s so big I’m not sure I can get him into a QT tank… he’s in a 400 gallon tank with other big fish and he’s been exposed to low doses of cupramine in the past and has never had an issue with it. I may just have to dose the whole tank with General Cure or some sort of antibiotic…

Many people think that because a lion survived exposure to copper all is fine, just because they don't drop dead right there and then. Copper exposure can cause internal damage that can show up months later as organs fail, more specifically the liver. It does start with lethargy, missing meals, slow to feed, and it gets progressive until they just stop eating, then it's the end. Other chemical exposures can act in the same way. In this time frame nutritional deficiencies also take their toll, as well as feeding too frequently. A lion that size can be fine with weekly feedings, maybe every 5 days; if you were feeding more than twice a week then possibly a contributor. A diet high in thiaminese; shrimp, krill, and all brands of silversides with the exception of SFB is also detrimental. A diet low in proper fats, like the inclusion of a fatty fish, is also a deficiency that is common and detrimental. My advice of general cure would be for a new addition or a lion eating live marine fish. There is also possibility of disease, in that I'll let others comment.
.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

He’s been in this tank for about a year and a half and has been eating like a pig since. Fed a mix of different frozen foods raw shrimp. Water chemistry is all normal. He started to act lathergic and not eat and that’s when the butterfly started going after his fins. He’s so big I’m not sure I can get him into a QT tank… he’s in a 400 gallon tank with other big fish and he’s been exposed to low doses of cupramine in the past and has never had an issue with it. I may just have to dose the whole tank with General Cure or some sort of antibiotic…

O.K., that information and these pictures tell more of the story. I don't think this is related to any infectious disease.
As I had mentioned, the question I had was what came first, the aggression from the heni or was the fish having difficulty and that caused the heni to pick on it? The answer is the latter - this fish has long term health issues. It has head and lateral line erosion, which is rare in lionfish. It is also a bit pinched in the belly. The fin damage, which I first thought was from aggression, may in part be diet/health related. All of this is most likely nutritional. Probably B1 deficiency, but also Vitamin E. There may also be a hepatic lipidosis issue (fatty liver disease).

Sorry, once nutritional issues get to this point, there isn't really anything that can be done.

There is no evidence that properly done copper treatments causes long term mortality in marine fish. Ionic copper, as I said, can be more stressful than amine-chelated products, but then it causes acute damage, at the time of exposure, not months/years later.

Jay

 

[lion king]

I do believe in a nutritional rescue, but most will not follow my suggestions. If the lion is still eating, there is still a chance to at least get some more time, just as many examples of reversing LLE. First I recommend live fish, recommending mollie, this is very important. Include a fatty fish, fresh wild skin on sockeye salmon is readily available and reasonably priced. Mussels contain a high amount of vit B1. If you feed silversiides, SFB brand only. You can stuff new life spectrum mega algae pellets in salmon and silverside chunks. Limit thiaminese including shrimp, no krill.. Using supplements like Brightwell aminomega and liquid vit B1. You can find more of my dietary recommendations by clicking my name and "find all threads". You can not reverse the damage from chemical exposure.

 

[303_Reefer]

I do believe in a nutritional rescue, but most will not follow my suggestions. If the lion is still eating, there is still a chance to at least get some more time, just as many examples of reversing LLE. First I recommend live fish, recommending mollie, this is very important. Include a fatty fish, fresh wild skin on sockeye salmon is readily available and reasonably priced. Mussels contain a high amount of vit B1. If you feed silversiides, SFB brand only. You can stuff new life spectrum mega algae pellets in salmon and silverside chunks. Limit thiaminese including shrimp, no krill.. Using supplements like Brightwell aminomega and liquid vit B1. You can find more of my dietary recommendations by clicking my name and "find all threads". You can not reverse the damage from chemical exposure.

 

[303_Reefer]

I’m noticing a slight anal/intestinal prolapse on him. I’m not sure if that something to be fixed with medicine or if it’s something that’s gonna have to work it’s way back in by itself

 

[lion king]

I’m noticing a slight anal/intestinal prolapse on him. I’m not sure if that something to be fixed with medicine or if it’s something that’s gonna have to work it’s way back in by itself

I've seen many cases of lions with prolapse rectums under medication of different types. It's many times the medication that is causing it. There could be other causes that could be dietary, and I've found boosting mg to1600ppm to address many digestive issues. Dietary concerns would still need to be addressed, primarily including a fatty fish and limiting thiaminese. Parasites can also cause a prolapsed rectrum.