Sick Clownfish

[Jay Hemdal]

24 hours later and the other fish still seems to be behaving normally. He ate normally this evening and I see no signs of heavy breathing or difficulty moving. I've left an air stone in simply because I don't think it could hurt and I'm still worried. I also added a new trochus snail yesterday (I bought it before I returned home and saw the issues) and as of the moment he's also moving about normally. I know snails are extra sensitive to many water chemistry issues so I see this as a good sign.

I don't see anything in my water test results that would have me panicked so not sure what else to do besides wait and see and do my normal maintenance.

Test Results
Salinity: 1.022....need to raise this but not low enough I would think to kill a fish.
Ammonia: 0/"safe" on Seachem alert badge. .25 with API master test kit (best guess, I never can tell for sure with the color).
Nitrate: 0
Ph = 8.0
Phosphate: .04 ppm with Hannah ULR checker

Your water tests seem fine, and snails do act as a “canary in the coal mine” for many issues.
Jay

 

[Razorbacks]

I don't like reading threads that are open ended and I want people to learn from my mistake so I'm circling back to close this out by saying that after researching more I've come to the sad realization I was underfeeding the fish. I'm certain of this now based on looking at current photos of my remaining clown compared to several months ago. So starting with an underfed fish + 3 day trip with no feeding (normally not an issue for a healthy fish) + my water has been a little cloudy despite large water changes (possible bacterial bloom reducing oxygen a bit) on a tank that has a glass lid. I think it all was too much.

I'm sure the underfeeding must be why my cleaner shrimp died so unexpectedly soon as well as I could never figure that out. I think I anticipated if the fish were underfed I would notice some change in their behavior before an actual death but, in the case of my cleaner shrimp that wasn't my experience and from what I've read that's not necessarily to be expected either.

It's frustrating because the #1 piece of advice I read everywhere both here and other places is to feed the fish less to prevent virtually every problem. While sound advice in general, it's a shame few people couple this with any kind of input on what to look for in terms of underfeeding. I actually had a hard time finding something as simple as a side by side of a healthy fish and an underfed one. Even when typing "fish underfed" on YouTube the top 3 results were about why to not overfeed. The 4th or 5th video down from Girl Talks Fish is one of the few videos I could find on the topic and she admitted to making the same mistake as me for the same reason.

I've immediately increased feeding for my remaining clown to twice a day vs once. I'm also timing the feeding so I can hone in the amount as needed vs just giving a small portion and I've added a second variety of fish food for additional nutrient variation.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I don't like reading threads that are open ended and I want people to learn from my mistake so I'm circling back to close this out by saying that after researching more I've come to the sad realization I was underfeeding the fish. I'm certain of this now based on looking at current photos of my remaining clown compared to several months ago. So starting with an underfed fish + 3 day trip with no feeding (normally not an issue for a healthy fish) + my water has been a little cloudy despite large water changes (possible bacterial bloom reducing oxygen a bit) on a tank that has a glass lid. I think it all was too much.

I'm sure the underfeeding must be why my cleaner shrimp died so unexpectedly soon as well as I could never figure that out. I think I anticipated if the fish were underfed I would notice some change in their behavior before an actual death but, in the case of my cleaner shrimp that wasn't my experience and from what I've read that's not necessarily to be expected either.

It's frustrating because the #1 piece of advice I read everywhere both here and other places is to feed the fish less to prevent virtually every problem. While sound advice in general, it's a shame few people couple this with any kind of input on what to look for in terms of underfeeding. I actually had a hard time finding something as simple as a side by side of a healthy fish and an underfed one. Even when typing "fish underfed" on YouTube the top 3 results were about why to not overfeed. The 4th or 5th video down from Girl Talks Fish is one of the few videos I could find on the topic and she admitted to making the same mistake as me for the same reason.

I've immediately increased feeding for my remaining clown to twice a day vs once. I'm also timing the feeding so I can hone in the amount as needed vs just giving a small portion and I've added a second variety of fish food for additional nutrient variation.

General aquarium fish should be fed on sort of a "demand system" - add a small amount of food, if they consume all of that, add some more, etc. until they slow down their feeding rate. then, repeat that twice a day for most fish, three time or more for very small fish.

There are notable exceptions to this - carnivores that may only need to be fed once or twice a week.

The "don't overfeed" advice is mostly based on trying to avoid "new tank syndrome" - to much, or uneaten food will contribute to ammonia build up in new tanks. However, once the nitrogen cycle has been establsihed, that isn't a concern.

Lately, there has been a disturbing trend for reef aquarists to barely feed their fish at all, as a means of nutrient control. The answer to that is to just don't put as many fish in the tank, and then, feed them the correct amount.

Jay

 

[Razorbacks]

General aquarium fish should be fed on sort of a "demand system" - add a small amount of food, if they consume all of that, add some more, etc. until they slow down their feeding rate. then, repeat that twice a day for most fish, three time or more for very small fish.

There are notable exceptions to this - carnivores that may only need to be fed once or twice a week.

The "don't overfeed" advice is mostly based on trying to avoid "new tank syndrome" - to much, or uneaten food will contribute to ammonia build up in new tanks. However, once the nitrogen cycle has been establsihed, that isn't a concern.

Lately, there has been a disturbing trend for reef aquarists to barely feed their fish at all, as a means of nutrient control. The answer to that is to just don't put as many fish in the tank, and then, feed them the correct amount.

Jay

Thank you Jay. I'll be picking up a new clown this weekend and starting a full medicated quarantine following the process you've outlined in other threads. I appreciate the expert advice.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you Jay. I'll be picking up a new clown this weekend and starting a full medicated quarantine following the process you've outlined in other threads. I appreciate the expert advice.

Be careful mixing two clowns that haven't cohabitated before - they often fight. They can be really sly about it too - playing all buddy buddy until you leave the room, then one attacks the other. Watch for ripped fins, or one clown hovering up in a conrer of the tank.

Jay

 

[Razorbacks]

Yes, I know and expect there will be the initial skirmish to see who is female. I'm hoping to find one that's similar size if not smaller. I'll be on the watch for actual harm. I'll probably also try to find one in a tank that has at least 3 juveniles too in the hopes that it's not female already.

Quick question: I did not medicate my first fish prophylactically. Is there any value/reason to put my surviving fish through the QT process with the new one...was thinking more the Prazzi portion than the copper as presumably Ich would have surfaced by now if there's a problem but I understand that flukes don't necessarily show obvious signs nor are they usually lethal so for all I know the current clown has them.

 

[Razorbacks]

@Jay Hemdal I need urgent advice. The second fish which has seemed fine up until now is acting similar to the first this morning. I found it in the same corner the last one went to. It was swimming feverishly but not actually moving. It wasn't on the ground, but it wasn't moving forward. I turned off all flow but that changed nothing. When I tried to grab it with a net it did start to move around but would not go for food.

My water has been getting murkier each day just like before. I've been reading this is a bacterial bloom which is supposed to be safe for the fish except for potentially reducing oxygen. I've been running extra sponge filter in the tank for the last 48 hours providing extra oxygen just as a fail safe even though the fish seemed normal.

I switched that for an air stone just now and I'm rushing to heat up some water for a water change, but is there anything else I can or should be doing? Is it just O2 levels? I don't understand. He's been eating normal and taking the additional feedings I've been giving him. There's something to this cloudy water that keeps coming back. Help!!!

Video Link: https://youtube.com/shorts/YEpNbrx5Qtg (best to mute out my screaming kids)

Working to get paramaters tested, but no ammonia showing on seachem badge and the temp, salinity are normal.
I'm running fresh polyfilter which should catch a stray contaminant.
I have Copper Power and Prazzi on hand if either is helpful. Metro on order.

 

[Razorbacks]

Update: I pulled the fish from the tank and put him into the mixing bucket with the fresh saltwater. He was jittery for a second but very quickly starting moving normally (slower and intentional. No flashing to staying near surface/bottom. Basically just exploring it) and watching him for over an hour I've observed nothing but normal movement patterns since getting him into the fresh saltwater.....however, I'm still stuck trying to figure out what's wrong with my tank.

As stated before the water is getting hazy. Water change will clear it temporarily but it starts coming back and increases each day. I ran carbon for about a week and half after the last fish passed, but recently removed it (maybe a few days ago). I don't typically run it but felt it could help clean up any stray contaminants. I switched it with some poly filter when I took it out.

Test Results

Ammonia: Initially came back .5 on API kit. I rushed the fish out when I saw this. However, a second test read zero. A third test my wife and I debated between 0 and .25 ppm. The seachem alert badge has consistently shown "safe" since the day I put it in.
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Phosphate: Hannah ULR .05
PH: 8.4 Hannah checker
Salinity: a smidge high at 1.028 I raised it recently when I realized I was running lower than ideal for corals. The bucket he's in is 1.026
Temp: 79

At the moment I don't feel safe putting him back in the display until I figure this out. I may setup a QT for observation.

 

[Razorbacks]

Ok, I've been reading more and found other instances of people having similar persistent issues with blooms and some losing fish as well. So far it sounds like a UV sterilizer is my best defense so I'm looking into one. Let me know if anyone else has different thoughts.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok, I've been reading more and found other instances of people having similar persistent issues with blooms and some losing fish as well. So far it sounds like a UV sterilizer is my best defense so I'm looking into one. Let me know if anyone else has different thoughts.

Hi, just seeing your posts. This is a new fish? How is the other, older fish? How long has the new fish been in your tank?

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Ok, I've been reading more and found other instances of people having similar persistent issues with blooms and some losing fish as well. So far it sounds like a UV sterilizer is my best defense so I'm looking into one. Let me know if anyone else has different thoughts.

While UV can be a valuable instrument, its not an eraser for algae and parasites but will address what is free floating and Passes through its water column.

 

[Razorbacks]

Hi, just seeing your posts. This is a new fish? How is the other, older fish? How long has the new fish been in your tank?

Jay

It's the existing fish. I didn't purchase the new one and pushing those plans off till I kick this bacterial bloom. I've moved him from the mixing bucket into a QT and plan to leave him there until I get the display corrected. He seems to be doing fine outside of the display.

I just ordered a "Green Killing Machine" 3 watt variant, but willing to look into or try anything.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It's the existing fish. I didn't purchase the new one and pushing those plans off till I kick this bacterial bloom. I've moved him from the mixing bucket into a QT and plan to leave him there until I get the display corrected. He seems to be doing fine outside of the display.

I just ordered a "Green Killing Machine" 3 watt variant, but willing to look into or try anything.

I’m not sure this is due to cloudy water, with two fish now affected, it could be a contagious disease.
Jay

 

[Razorbacks]

I'm open to any solution, but from everything I'm reading I believe I have a bacterial bloom and a UV sterilizer seems like a logical next step and certainly falls into the bucket of "can't hurt to try". If you saw any signs of a specific disease in the videos you think I could treat for let me know.

Here is my series of events so far:

1) 8 Month old reef tank with no new inhabitants. Normal behavior from fish before leaving for trip, but noticed abnormally high water clouding right before leaving. Also coral had been dieing off being choked out by GHA.
2) Upon returning 3 days later the clouding was worse and initially could not locate either fish. 1 fish struggling for life. Water parameters test normal.
3) Did a 40% water change, added an air stone, and carbon to filter but saw no improvement and fish passed quickly. Other fish survived and seemed fine. Introduced 1 trochus snail I bought on trip. Also added Xenia and GSP about 5 days later. GSP did not open for a long time but is starting to intermittently. Xenia shriveled and will not pulse.
4) 11 days later find the second fish hovering at the bottom swimming feverishly but not actually moving. Finally get it to move by trying to catch it but it races to the surface and stays there pacing quickly. It will not feed. Clearly struggling. Water parameters test normal.
5) Remove the fish from the tank and put into fresh saltwater. After a few seconds it began acting completely normal and would eat. Placed fish in a QT where it continued to act normal all day and looks fine this morning. The display still has the murky look.

Here's what I've read on bacterial blooms:

Another forum:"Bacterial blooms are an extremely common occurrence in newer tanks that can quickly consume the available oxygen in the water leading to the loss of livestock."

BRS: "A UV can effectively eliminate cloudy water due to bacterial blooms, kill cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates, and reduce the spread of nuisance algae in your tank."

"If your aquarium was clear yesterday and you woke up today to find the tank hazy and cloudy, you are likely experiencing a bacterial bloom. This most often happens when cycling new aquariums while establishing a nitrogen cycle but can also plague existing aquariums. A bacteria bloom is a rapid reproduction of suspended heterotrophic bacteria that occurs because of a sudden increase in organic matter. Worst case, the bacteria can actually out-compete your fish and other aquatic pets for the available dissolved oxygen in the water leading to suffocation."

Thread from another on Reef2Reef with a very similar issue. Also tried aeration but lost 50% of livestock. Seemed to have a UV sterilizer but didn't start running it until animals were already in critical shape. From reviews of the products it seems that it can take 4-6 days for UV to totally clear water so after it arrives I'll probably let it run awhile before trying to reintroduce the fish.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm open to any solution, but from everything I'm reading I believe I have a bacterial bloom and a UV sterilizer seems like a logical next step and certainly falls into the bucket of "can't hurt to try". If you saw any signs of a specific disease in the videos you think I could treat for let me know.

Here is my series of events so far:

1) 8 Month old reef tank with no new inhabitants. Normal behavior from fish before leaving for trip, but noticed abnormally high water clouding right before leaving. Also coral had been dieing off being choked out by GHA.
2) Upon returning 3 days later the clouding was worse and initially could not locate either fish. 1 fish struggling for life. Water parameters test normal.
3) Did a 40% water change, added an air stone, and carbon to filter but saw no improvement and fish passed quickly. Other fish survived and seemed fine. Introduced 1 trochus snail I bought on trip. Also added Xenia and GSP about 5 days later. GSP did not open for a long time but is starting to intermittently. Xenia shriveled and will not pulse.
4) 11 days later find the second fish hovering at the bottom swimming feverishly but not actually moving. Finally get it to move by trying to catch it but it races to the surface and stays there pacing quickly. It will not feed. Clearly struggling. Water parameters test normal.
5) Remove the fish from the tank and put into fresh saltwater. After a few seconds it began acting completely normal and would eat. Placed fish in a QT where it continued to act normal all day and looks fine this morning. The display still has the murky look.

Here's what I've read on bacterial blooms:

Another forum:"Bacterial blooms are an extremely common occurrence in newer tanks that can quickly consume the available oxygen in the water leading to the loss of livestock."

BRS: "A UV can effectively eliminate cloudy water due to bacterial blooms, kill cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates, and reduce the spread of nuisance algae in your tank."

"If your aquarium was clear yesterday and you woke up today to find the tank hazy and cloudy, you are likely experiencing a bacterial bloom. This most often happens when cycling new aquariums while establishing a nitrogen cycle but can also plague existing aquariums. A bacteria bloom is a rapid reproduction of suspended heterotrophic bacteria that occurs because of a sudden increase in organic matter. Worst case, the bacteria can actually out-compete your fish and other aquatic pets for the available dissolved oxygen in the water leading to suffocation."

Thread from another on Reef2Reef with a very similar issue. Also tried aeration but lost 50% of livestock. Seemed to have a UV sterilizer but didn't start running it until animals were already in critical shape. From reviews of the products it seems that it can take 4-6 days for UV to totally clear water so after it arrives I'll probably let it run awhile before trying to reintroduce the fish.

Just remember that UV sterilizers don't remove the bacteria, they just kill it. they lyse the bacteria cells and then that is still in the water, waiting for other bacteria to eat it. So - the total biomass is unchanged, and so is the rate of bacterial decomposition. You need to try and determine the source of the bacteria's food.

Jay

 

[Razorbacks]

Makes sense. I think stirring up my sand bed while cleaning the tank was the issue and then I've recently improved flow which further stirred it up. I'm planning to add more burrowing snails (likely cerith) to help with aeration/detritus cleanup. I only have 2 snails at the moment for cleanup crew and only 1 until a few weeks ago. After the tank is crystal clear I'll probably do a 100% water change as well before putting the fish back.

I've had the sterilizer going 48 hours now. First 24 was basically no change. 48 in very clear front to back (best it's looked in months) but still hazy when viewing from sides. Hopefully a few more days will do the trick. The GSP seems happy with the improvement. It's the most open I've seen since purchase.