should I stop maintaining my parameters with TM all for reef?

Sidsreef

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Situation: I have a waterbox 90.3 that I upgraded into from a system that was 2 years old and started 1 month ago today. while I knew that I would come into some chemistry issues, this one kind of stumped me to the point of needing some help and or a plan of action.

i set the tank completely up and ran water for 2-3 days monitoring it checking for leaks and fine-tuning my water levels regarding gate valves and overflow and sump usage. after that, I did a 75% water change in case any chemicals from plumbing or dust or anything floating around in the water that I didn't want. and raised my PH with seachem PH buffer (which worked amazingly BTW). I then added my single dosing pump for TM all for reef and started dosing at 15ML a day according to the manufactures instructions. my total water volume is 70-75G of water. ( I don't have the funds to up and buy 2 dosing pumps from Neptune. i have a Neptune apex monitoring my tank.)

My CA, ALK and MAG started to drop slowly in the tank day by day. i didn't pay too much mind to it until levels dropped below minimum parameters. i then dosed red sea foundation A,B,C, its 3-250ML bottles with (liquid). my levels were brought up above the minimum requirement parameter levels. after I dosed the first time with the red sea solution my levels stayed within range for a week straight. Hopefully, that was because of the daily 15ML of dosing TM all for reef.

i understand that all for reef is a maintenance solution so you have to get the correct levels first in order for all for reef to maintain above minimum levels. The following week my ALK took a pretty big hit and would drop below the minimum parameter level so I started to spot dose slowly with the part b reef foundation from red sea wich will raise my ALK. My alkalinity would raise up to the correct levels then the following day or 2 it would drop drastically 2 points or a 1.5. I then would re dose the alk again. to maintain levels and once again a 2-1.5 drop once more. i started to run out of part B solution because I'm trying to keep up with it. MY CA, MAG started to drop slightly but not as much as the ALK swings. i then started to spot dose CA and MAG because they were also starting drop again. through this whole process I'm dosing all for reef. mind you my PH is within range during all this. 8.0-8.4. i had some precipitation accumulating also iduno if that has any effect on anything.

**during all of this, all equipment was re-calibrated and or cross-checked with another piece of testing equipment. All of the testing equipment is accurate. i am also going to be getting an ICP test kit here soon.**


Parameters:

The parameters range I'm following are TM ill put a reference down below. i will also show the trident graphs showing what i described above.

water parameters.jpg


ALKTRIDENT.jpg


CATRIDENT.jpg


MAGTRIDENT.jpg


if you look at the alk you can see were I dosed the tank because it swings up and down....I'm not to worried about MG and CA because I have more of a handle on those. if my ALK did the same as my CA then I might have not wrote this post. if I hadn't dosed the tank it would have possibly dropped my alk down into the 5.0/6.0 range. the reason you don't see it fall to those is because I have an alarm on my trident levels.

Conclusion: I am worried about my corals. this is an SPS tank and i have some Acro's in it. being said that i understand that we should be shooting for stability but being that i have a certain type of coral in this system you have to at least maintain minimum levels. im chasing numbers to maintain stability but in order for stability to be achieved i need the numbers.

i am open to hearing any advice and also I'm here to learn. if I'm not asking or putting this out there then I'm not trying to learn or get better.

Questions:
1. Would my CA help my ALK stay in check if CA were maintained at a certain level or MAG?

2. I like using all for reef because its one solution but as far as I can see it doesn't do anything for calcium mag or ALK. anyone have any success with all for reef?

3. does anyone have any advice that might have gone through this?

4. i have a new tank. however, my rocks and media bags are over 2 years old and some of the rocks have 15 year bacteria growing on them. that being said is my tank not mature enough?

5. i might need a new way to dose my tank. any suggestions? (not interested in 2-part btw)


water parameters.jpg ALKTRIDENT.jpg CATRIDENT.jpg MAGTRIDENT.jpg
 

HudsonReefer2.0

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Sry I don’t use AFR. I dose esv bionic and I use about 35 ml of alk a day to keep me around 8.2. Also add same for calcium but I hover around 400. Red sea blues salt. Low in Mg. So I also dose esv MG. Try to keep it 1380. Just an fyi. The higher ur MG the higher ur calcium and alk.
 
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Sidsreef

Sidsreef

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Sry I don’t use AFR. I dose esv bionic and I use about 35 ml of alk a day to keep me around 8.2. Also add same for calcium but I hover around 400. Red sea blues salt. Low in Mg. So I also dose esv MG. Try to keep it 1380. Just an fyi. The higher ur MG the higher ur calcium and alk.
So i do like tropic Marin because of the science behind it. however it seems what they claim isn't working on my system and they always say there product is so great but when it comes to CA, ALK, MAG i don't see the results without dumping like 50ML a day into the tank. a great presentation to watch that talks about the science is lou at macna 2022. I'm gonna put the link below. even in the presentation, he talks about all the trace elements that AFR has in it.


i have previously used ESV before and it worked great. I'm just worried about the trace element side of things.





VIDEO:

Calcium & Alkalinity Supplementation, Tropic Marin’s Carbon Dosing System. Lou Ekus MACNA 2022
 
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With my setup I dose alkalinity separately and a separate combination of (9/10ths) calcium and (1/10ths) magnesium. This only requires 2 dosing heads and is fairly easy to maintain.
what solution are you using? i am looking at aqua forest components 1,2,3. I've heard nothing but great things about aqua forest.
 

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I dose 120 ml/day of TM AFR. Works as advertised. Based on your post I'm not sure I understand the displays overall maturity level as it relates to age and coral growth. 1/4" frags are different that 3" colonies. TM AFR has a pretty large following with many happy hobbyist and successful reefs.

Have you plotted out your daily or weekly Alk, Ca, and Mg consumption? You need to know this regardless of what product you are dosing.
 
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Sidsreef

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I dose 120 ml/day of TM AFR. Works as advertised. Based on your post I'm not sure I understand the displays overall maturity level as it relates to age and coral growth. 1/4" frags are different that 3" colonies. TM AFR has a pretty large following with many happy hobbyist and successful reefs.

Have you plotted out your daily or weekly Alk, Ca, and Mg consumption? You need to know this regardless of what product you are dosing.
yeah, i went onto the TM website giving me a max dosing of 73ML daily I'm currently on 23ML daily. i am slowly bumping my levels up. and yes i consume in a day: -0.96 ALK, -17 CA, -12MAG. do you have information on where i can find a calculator for daily consumption calculation?

Let me just be clear here.. i do not plan to just stop the AFR. i currently have the premix powder 1600G can of this stuff. i have plenty of time to test this out and make sure it's working. on my previous system, i was using AFR and it worked fine however it was a smaller system. different dosing and consumption.

as far as me asking if the tank is new and clean sump that just started i would imagine biofiltration not being there to help the tank. its been researched that there are bacteria that Acropora need and or thrive off of in tanks. some of which are being pulled by a protein skimmer.
 
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Sidsreef

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AFR is great for scenarios where you only have the one dosing pump and you can get away without having to individually dose each.
yeah down the road after i am finished with the AFR i might move to a different solution. however i like the tropic marin brand allot.


Im going to dial in the dosing on the AFR i just didn't want to start dumping 70 ML a day on day one. if the AFR works then I'm just gonna stick with it until i find a failure and then i will consider switching
 
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Sidsreef

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yes i can get you a tank shot. in fact ill get you multiple shots so yall can see. im at work at the moment and wont get home until the 13th. ill get you guys some shots
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Situation: I have a waterbox 90.3 that I upgraded into from a system that was 2 years old and started 1 month ago today. while I knew that I would come into some chemistry issues, this one kind of stumped me to the point of needing some help and or a plan of action.

i set the tank completely up and ran water for 2-3 days monitoring it checking for leaks and fine-tuning my water levels regarding gate valves and overflow and sump usage. after that, I did a 75% water change in case any chemicals from plumbing or dust or anything floating around in the water that I didn't want. and raised my PH with seachem PH buffer (which worked amazingly BTW). I then added my single dosing pump for TM all for reef and started dosing at 15ML a day according to the manufactures instructions. my total water volume is 70-75G of water. ( I don't have the funds to up and buy 2 dosing pumps from Neptune. i have a Neptune apex monitoring my tank.)

My CA, ALK and MAG started to drop slowly in the tank day by day. i didn't pay too much mind to it until levels dropped below minimum parameters. i then dosed red sea foundation A,B,C, its 3-250ML bottles with (liquid). my levels were brought up above the minimum requirement parameter levels. after I dosed the first time with the red sea solution my levels stayed within range for a week straight. Hopefully, that was because of the daily 15ML of dosing TM all for reef.

i understand that all for reef is a maintenance solution so you have to get the correct levels first in order for all for reef to maintain above minimum levels. The following week my ALK took a pretty big hit and would drop below the minimum parameter level so I started to spot dose slowly with the part b reef foundation from red sea wich will raise my ALK. My alkalinity would raise up to the correct levels then the following day or 2 it would drop drastically 2 points or a 1.5. I then would re dose the alk again. to maintain levels and once again a 2-1.5 drop once more. i started to run out of part B solution because I'm trying to keep up with it. MY CA, MAG started to drop slightly but not as much as the ALK swings. i then started to spot dose CA and MAG because they were also starting drop again. through this whole process I'm dosing all for reef. mind you my PH is within range during all this. 8.0-8.4. i had some precipitation accumulating also iduno if that has any effect on anything.

**during all of this, all equipment was re-calibrated and or cross-checked with another piece of testing equipment. All of the testing equipment is accurate. i am also going to be getting an ICP test kit here soon.**


Parameters:

The parameters range I'm following are TM ill put a reference down below. i will also show the trident graphs showing what i described above.

water parameters.jpg


ALKTRIDENT.jpg


CATRIDENT.jpg


MAGTRIDENT.jpg


if you look at the alk you can see were I dosed the tank because it swings up and down....I'm not to worried about MG and CA because I have more of a handle on those. if my ALK did the same as my CA then I might have not wrote this post. if I hadn't dosed the tank it would have possibly dropped my alk down into the 5.0/6.0 range. the reason you don't see it fall to those is because I have an alarm on my trident levels.

Conclusion: I am worried about my corals. this is an SPS tank and i have some Acro's in it. being said that i understand that we should be shooting for stability but being that i have a certain type of coral in this system you have to at least maintain minimum levels. im chasing numbers to maintain stability but in order for stability to be achieved i need the numbers.

i am open to hearing any advice and also I'm here to learn. if I'm not asking or putting this out there then I'm not trying to learn or get better.

Questions:
1. Would my CA help my ALK stay in check if CA were maintained at a certain level or MAG?

2. I like using all for reef because its one solution but as far as I can see it doesn't do anything for calcium mag or ALK. anyone have any success with all for reef?

3. does anyone have any advice that might have gone through this?

4. i have a new tank. however, my rocks and media bags are over 2 years old and some of the rocks have 15 year bacteria growing on them. that being said is my tank not mature enough?

5. i might need a new way to dose my tank. any suggestions? (not interested in 2-part btw)


water parameters.jpg ALKTRIDENT.jpg CATRIDENT.jpg MAGTRIDENT.jpg

While no method is perfect, I think the root of all the issues I saw clearly in this post are that not enough AFR was being dosed.

Any time alk is not being maintained, you need to dose more.

If you find calcium is dropping long term, add some in a different way.
 
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Sidsreef

Sidsreef

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While no method is perfect, I think the root of all the issues I saw clearly in this post are that not enough AFR was being dosed.

Any time alk is not being maintained, you need to dose more.

If you find calcium is dropping long term, add some in a different way.
Thanks randy
 

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While no method is perfect, I think the root of all the issues I saw clearly in this post are that not enough AFR was being dosed.

Any time alk is not being maintained, you need to dose more.

If you find calcium is dropping long term, add some in a different way.

I was going to say... TM recommends 5ml/26gal as a STARTING POINT. They say to increase the dose by 2.5ml/26gal until Alk stabilizes around 8dkh. I only increase AFR doses every 3-4 days so I have a good understanding of what each dose is doing (over a 3-4 day period). Seems like you just missed the next step in AFR dosing.

FWIW, I also noticed that I dose a bit more AFR since breaking my doses up every 4 hours instead of once daily, but the numbers are much more stable throughout the day.
 

DHill6

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AFR didn’t work for me, I’m trying ATI Pro Essentials and I use TMPRO salt. Weekly wc of 4 g on roughly 40g. I’ve noticed with this I dose very minimal, every 2-3 days with alk. I haven’t had to dose the CA part. Corals seem perkier after dosing, LPS tank.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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AFR didn’t work for me, I’m trying ATI Pro Essentials and I use TMPRO salt. Weekly wc of 4 g on roughly 40g. I’ve noticed with this I dose very minimal, every 2-3 days with alk. I haven’t had to dose the CA part. Corals seem perkier after dosing, LPS tank.

What does "it didn't work" mean?
 
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