Seachem Reef Fusion is not properly alk/calcium balanced for 1:1 dosing

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So the seachem calcium says it contains Mag. I assume that this is to keep the magnesium balance. So actually it is 3 part?

I have actually used 2 bottles of red sea alk and calcium but have yet to use any mag. Is this because of my water changes?

What Seachem product, exactly, are you asking about?

This thread is primarily about Reef Fusion, and it does claim to add magnesium, as most commercial two parts do.

 

[Reef Jeff]

It doesn't really make sense, with a few exceptions, because the ways that tanks are different do not impact the components of calcium carbonate.

The big factor is water changes with a salt mix not matching the tank messing with the demand ratio.

I guess what I don't understand is a two part is dosed one part A and one part B. When I dosed in such a manner, my alkalinity typically fell faster than my calcium, more or less in various tanks. So if I dosed more (1:1) to fix alkalinity, calcium rose too high which I would catch in testing. I would have to add more of the alkalinity part than calcium part to correct. If I stayed on course with 1:1, I expect calcium would have risen so high as to precipitate out at a certain point. Based on what you found with Seachem 2 part that would be even more pronounced with too much calcium in their 2 part.

Now I get what you mean about water changes. I hadn't considered that influence, but it was typically with a high DKH mix and yet alkalinity demand remained higher that Calcium. Sorry...I'm probably missing some basic concept here and am just trying to understand how a two part can work. I appreciate your knowledge on this.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What brand of two part were you dosing?

Do you know for sure it was designed 1:1 and that you really were dosing 1:1 (dosing pumps can vary considerably, for example).

FWIW, many high alk mixes are also high in calcium, and relative to NSW, a mix with 11 dKH and 460 ppm calcium is actually overloaded in calcium more than alkalinity.

 

[Robsk]

To anyone that is dosing Reef Fusion, do you stir the solution? The instructions say to shake well, so I would think that after time it would begin to settle and separate. Wouldn't this cause uneven dosing?

Both parts sit in a dosing container until refillled. No stirring. I use a dosing pump.

 

[Reef Jeff]

What brand of two part were you dosing?

Do you know for sure it was designed 1:1 and that you really were dosing 1:1 (dosing pumps can vary considerably, for example).

This was several years ago and I used two brands at different time periods. Two Little Fishes C-Balance and later switched to Kent Marine Tech CB. During each time period I dosed manually in equal parts. Alkalinity always dropped before calcium with both brands and to solve this would always have to dose more of the alkalinity portion than calcium portion. I was using IO Reef Crystals back then.

Now I used Red Sea Foundation liquids A, B and C. I test alkalinity, calcium and magnesium regularly and I maintain alkalinity at 2.9 - 3.0 meq/l, calcium at 430-450 ppm, and magnesium between 1360-1400. I maintain salinity at 1.026. PH runs 8.0 plus or minus .04 depending on time of day. I don't add alkalinity to adjust PH, I only add it to maintain alkalinity. I have verified with different tests to ensure some reasonable degree of accuracy. I supplement what is needed to maintain these levels. I find I use about two to three times as much alkalinity supplement as calcium and seldom ever have to add magnesium. I assume it is in "balance" because levels are being maintained and I have good growth and color with no coral losses. Is my approach reasonable?

 

[jasonrusso]

Both parts sit in a dosing container until refillled. No stirring. I use a dosing pump.

So it doesn't separate? You don't see it making layers

 

[Robsk]

So it doesn't separate? You don't see it making layers

No separation. I buy the big liters of reef fusion. Shake the big bottles then I fill up my acrylic containers to about a 1000ml and I dose about 50 ml each day. Been dosing this stuff for about 2 years now.

 

[jasonrusso]

No separation. I buy the big liters of reef fusion. Shake the big bottles then I fill up my acrylic containers to about a 1000ml and I dose about 50 ml each day. Been dosing this stuff for about 2 years now.

I just bought this one because it has a stirrer built in, maybe I should reconsider. I was worried about the "shake well" warning.


https://reefbuilders.com/2013/10/24/arka-vida-gt-doser-incorporates-magnetic-stirrers/

 

[Robsk]

I just bought this one because it has a stirrer built in, maybe I should reconsider. I was worried about the "shake well" warning.


https://reefbuilders.com/2013/10/24/arka-vida-gt-doser-incorporates-magnetic-stirrers/

Looks like a really nice doser. I just use a cheap jebao doser...lol. And an acrylic 3 part container

 

[jasonrusso]

Looks like a really nice doser. I just use a cheap jebao doser...lol. And an acrylic 3 part container

To be honest, it only cost $199 (good deal on Amazon), but it doesn't have containers. I was going to to use Voss water bottles. Hmm, now I'm torn. I bought 2 gallons of reef foundation yesterday.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This was several years ago and I used two brands at different time periods. Two Little Fishes C-Balance and later switched to Kent Marine Tech CB. During each time period I dosed manually in equal parts. Alkalinity always dropped before calcium with both brands and to solve this would always have to dose more of the alkalinity portion than calcium portion. I was using IO Reef Crystals back then.

Now I used Red Sea Foundation liquids A, B and C. I test alkalinity, calcium and magnesium regularly and I maintain alkalinity at 2.9 - 3.0 meq/l, calcium at 430-450 ppm, and magnesium between 1360-1400. I maintain salinity at 1.026. PH runs 8.0 plus or minus .04 depending on time of day. I don't add alkalinity to adjust PH, I only add it to maintain alkalinity. I have verified with different tests to ensure some reasonable degree of accuracy. I supplement what is needed to maintain these levels. I find I use about two to three times as much alkalinity supplement as calcium and seldom ever have to add magnesium. I assume it is in "balance" because levels are being maintained and I have good growth and color with no coral losses. Is my approach reasonable?

Red Sea Foundation elements does not appear to be intended for 1:1 dosing (if you accept the data they give on their web site), explaining your results.

https://www.redseafish.com/reef-care-program/reef_foundation_program/reef-foundation-b/
Liquid supplement: 1ml will raise the Alk level of 100 liters (25 gal) by 0.036 meq/l (0.1dKH)

https://www.redseafish.com/reef-care-program/reef_foundation_program/reef-foundation-a/
Liquid supplement: 1ml will raise the Ca level of 100 liters (25 gal) by 2ppm.

So if we add 27.8 ml of each part to 25 gallons, we will have added:

27.8 x 0.036 meq/l = 1.00 meq/L (2.8 dKH)
27.8 x 2 ppm = 55.6 ppm

That is not the ratio for 1:1 dosing. The calcium part is way more potent and that is probably why you are using so much less. For 1:1 that same 27.8 mL per 25 gallons ought to be delivering about 18-20 ppm.

In general, the constant testing approach is OK, as long as you have high confidence in your kits.

The beauty of a two part (which you are not using, apparently) is it eliminates a lot of the need for testing, and potentially removes the roller coaster rise of high and low values that can arise with testing uncertainties.

In short term tests (a day or two or three), alk dropping and calcium stable is normal for underdosing of both parts. Calcium is much slower to change, so it can look stable even though more of both parts may have solved the problem. Long term, it is certainly reasonable to adjust levels to match the tank situation because water changes often alter the demand a lot.

 

[jasonrusso]

The beauty of a two part (which you are not using, apparently) is it eliminates a lot of the need for testing, and potentially removes the roller coaster rise of high and low values that can arise with testing uncertainties.

I am using Red Sea right now, and as most have noticed, I use a lot more alk than calcium. I am going to be switching to Reef Fusion A & B. I was planning on figuring out how much to dose of either to stay at 9DKH and 420 calcium. I was not planning on dosing equal parts, is there any harm in this? Do you HAVE to dose equal parts?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am using Red Sea right now, and as most have noticed, I use a lot more alk than calcium. I am going to be switching to Reef Fusion A & B. I was planning on figuring out how much to dose of either to stay at 9DKH and 420 calcium. I was not planning on dosing equal parts, is there any harm in this? Do you HAVE to dose equal parts?

A well designed two part is best dosed 1:1 unless calcium is already too high, or long term testing suggests a slightly different ratio meets your tank needs better, but you can’t do that if the product is not designed properly for that, and the Seachem product is not, despite their claim that it is.

So yes, dosing non equal parts of Reef Fusion would be the expectation.

 

[jasonrusso]

A well designed two part is best dosed 1:1 unless calcium is already too high, or long term testing suggests a slightly different ratio meets your tank needs better, but you can’t do that if the product is not designed properly for that, and the Seachem product is not, despite their claim that it is.

So yes, dosing non equal parts of Reef Fusion would be the expectation.

But it won't cause any problems doing so, correct?

 

[Reef Jeff]

Red Sea Foundation elements does not appear to be intended for 1:1 dosing (if you accept the data they give on their web site), explaining your results.

https://www.redseafish.com/reef-care-program/reef_foundation_program/reef-foundation-b/
Liquid supplement: 1ml will raise the Alk level of 100 liters (25 gal) by 0.036 meq/l (0.1dKH)

https://www.redseafish.com/reef-care-program/reef_foundation_program/reef-foundation-a/
Liquid supplement: 1ml will raise the Ca level of 100 liters (25 gal) by 2ppm.

So if we add 27.8 ml of each part to 25 gallons, we will have added:

27.8 x 0.036 meq/l = 1.00 meq/L (2.8 dKH)
27.8 x 2 ppm = 55.6 ppm

That is not the ratio for 1:1 dosing. The calcium part is way more potent and that is probably why you are using so much less. For 1:1 that same 27.8 mL per 25 gallons ought to be delivering about 18-20 ppm.

In general, the constant testing approach is OK, as long as you have high confidence in your kits.

The beauty of a two part (which you are not using, apparently) is it eliminates a lot of the need for testing, and potentially removes the roller coaster rise of high and low values that can arise with testing uncertainties.

In short term tests (a day or two or three), alk dropping and calcium stable is normal for underdosing of both parts. Calcium is much slower to change, so it can look stable even though more of both parts may have solved the problem. Long term, it is certainly reasonable to adjust levels to match the tank situation because water changes often alter the demand a lot.

Randy...thanks for taking the time to start this thread and for doing the same to answer my specific questions. It's folks like you that make this hobby a joy to be part of. I wanted to be sure what I was doing was okay, and it appears it is, although I now understand the potential downside to it and the potential benefits of using a good 1:1 recipe. I may just have to try your's. Not sure what I was doing wrong in the past with Two Little Fishes or Kent, but perhaps they too were not correctly balanced. Anyhow, many thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But it won't cause any problems doing so, correct?

The description “any problem” is hard to meet with any product, and I don’t actually know what levels of what ingredients they put into Reef Fusion, but I doubt it is going to cause any apparent issues.

 

[jasonrusso]

This is from Seachem's site, maybe this is why the calcium dose seems so high.

"Maintain calcium level between 410-430 mg/L. Maintain alkalinity between 4-6 meq/L. Size or frequency of dose may be increased if dosing regimen is insufficient to maintain calcium and alkalinity in these ranges."

They want you to run DKH between 11.5 and 17?? Seems really high.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is from Seachem's site, maybe this is why the calcium dose seems so high.

"Maintain calcium level between 410-430 mg/L. Maintain alkalinity between 4-6 meq/L. Size or frequency of dose may be increased if dosing regimen is insufficient to maintain calcium and alkalinity in these ranges."

They want you to run DKH between 11.5 and 17?? Seems really high.

i never understood why they like it so high either.

 

[Dobermanp]

I hate to bump a couple month old thread, but wanted to put my usage of reef fusion 1 & 2. I have a 90G Mixed/Mostly SPS tank. I end up using 20ML of Fusion 1 (calcium) to maintain 450, and 50ML (Alk) to maintain 8.2-8.6 dkh. I'm not sure why it's such a massive amount more alk then calcium. everything is growing great and I have great colors. I used to have to use equal parts alk and calcium, but once everything starting growing a lot, the alk usage shot up. I also don't have to add any Mg, it usually stays around 1380-1450. I do weekly 10G water changes on my tank with Red Sea Sea Salt. Any thoughts?

 

[jasonrusso]

I was using more Alk than calcium. As time went on they actually balanced and I am dosing the same amount now.