Royal Gramma - Sudden Death in QT

[tmRoth]

I've had a newly-purchased royal gramma and six-line wrasse in a 10-gallon QT for close to 3 weeks. The RG developed signs of ich and was lethargic, so I treated with copper starting just over 2 weeks ago. The RG was back to normal in less than 24 hours. Since then the RG and wrasse have been energetic and eating well. I've never seen any real aggression between them, other than a little territorial dispute when I first put them in the QT together. This morning, there was a little face-off between them, but the wrasse never attacked and the RG was just giving the wrasse the wide-open mouth scare tactic. Both have seemed like best buds, swimming around together.

They both ate normally this afternoon and acted fine. I walked by the tank 2 or 3 hours later and the RG was lying dead in the corner of the tank in the position shown in the photos - curled onto its side, mouth wide open (gills on one side wide open, but I assume that's because of the curled position).

Tank parameters:

pH - 8.2
Copper - 2.0 (Hanna)
Ammonia - Seachem badge shows no reading, API test shows 0.50
Nitrite - 2.0 (API)
Nitrate - 0 (API)

I'm guessing that there was some aggression that I never saw, and the RG was attacked by the wrasse, but I wanted to see of those of you with more experience think the death may have been from a different problem.

The tank is well-aerated, and the wrasse seems fine. He did act really excited and nervous when I found the RG, but is behaving normally now. In an earlier thread when people were helping me with the ich diagnosis and treatmeent, someone mentioned 10 gallons being too small for these two to be together, and I'm thinking they could be getting stressed from spending so long in QT - kind of like family spending too much time stuck in the house together during the covid lockdown.

EDIT: Just wanted to add - I don't see any signs of damage to the RG, so if the wrasse killed it, it would have to be blunt force trama. Has anyone had a six-line ram another fish so hard that it killed the other fish?

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

IMO the tank is indeed too small for those 2 fishes, especially since QT tank has no rock work to hide in. 20 gallon tanks are better QT tanks IMO.

Was the QT tank cycled before the fishes were added?

 

[tmRoth]

IMO the tank is indeed too small for those 2 fishes, especially since QT tank has no rock work to hide in. 20 gallon tanks are better QT tanks IMO.

Was the QT tank cycled before the fishes were added?

The tank does have two ceramic cave rocks to hide in, and I have a container of sand on one end with room between the container and the tank glass. The wrasse took up residence in one of the caves, and the RG would hang out between the sand container and tank glass, so they both had hiding spaces. But I get your point - not the same as a large tank with rock.

No, the assembled tank wasn't cycled, but I used a sponge filter that I had kept in the sump of my 90-gallon display tank for a few weeks beforehand. I did a 20% water change 2 or 3 days ago, and matched the copper in the replacement water to the concentration in the QT.

 

[Sharkbait19]

No odd behavior from the gramma before death?
You don’t always see aggression, and squaring off could be an indication of more fighting occurring. Both of these fish are rock dwellers, and while they could get along in a bigger tank, it is highly possible that the fish was killed by the wrasse due to not having enough space.

 

[tmRoth]

No odd behavior from the gramma before death?
You don’t always see aggression, and squaring off could be an indication of more fighting occurring. Both of these fish are rock dwellers, and while they could get along in a bigger tank, it is highly possible that the fish was killed by the wrasse due to not having enough space.

Nothing specific, although I did think they were maybe getting a little fidgety. Not anything different towards each other, just not as laid back as they had been. Like I said in my original post though, this morning the two of them were facing off in the corner with the RG doing its mouth thing when it was backed into the corner by the wrasse. As soon as they saw me they came to the front of the tank to be fed and that was the end of it.

So yes, that could be an indication that they were fighting at other times, or building up to this. I had a sick sign and an RG in my 90 gallon tank for several years with no issues. But there was plenty of room and lots of rock work to hide in

 

[vetteguy53081]

I've had a newly-purchased royal gramma and six-line wrasse in a 10-gallon QT for close to 3 weeks. The RG developed signs of ich and was lethargic, so I treated with copper starting just over 2 weeks ago. The RG was back to normal in less than 24 hours. Since then the RG and wrasse have been energetic and eating well. I've never seen any real aggression between them, other than a little territorial dispute when I first put them in the QT together. This morning, there was a little face-off between them, but the wrasse never attacked and the RG was just giving the wrasse the wide-open mouth scare tactic. Both have seemed like best buds, swimming around together.

They both ate normally this afternoon and acted fine. I walked by the tank 2 or 3 hours later and the RG was lying dead in the corner of the tank in the position shown in the photos - curled onto its side, mouth wide open (gills on one side wide open, but I assume that's because of the curled position).

Tank parameters:

pH - 8.2
Copper - 2.0 (Hanna)
Ammonia - Seachem badge shows no reading, API test shows 0.50
Nitrite - 2.0 (API)
Nitrate - 0 (API)

I'm guessing that there was some aggression that I never saw, and the RG was attacked by the wrasse, but I wanted to see of those of you with more experience think the death may have been from a different problem.

The tank is well-aerated, and the wrasse seems fine. He did act really excited and nervous when I found the RG, but is behaving normally now. In an earlier thread when people were helping me with the ich diagnosis and treatmeent, someone mentioned 10 gallons being too small for these two to be together, and I'm thinking they could be getting stressed from spending so long in QT - kind of like family spending too much time stuck in the house together during the covid lockdown.

EDIT: Just wanted to add - I don't see any signs of damage to the RG, so if the wrasse killed it, it would have to be blunt force trama. Has anyone had a six-line ram another fish so hard that it killed the other fish?

More than likely this was a water quality issue and the fish died from low oxygen or high ammonia. The ammonia badge and Api Kits are the worse when it comes to reliable measurements and I would guess the levels are higher than shown. The wrasse played a role- I agree but there is more and again water.
The pic with the mouth open suggests this fish was struggling to breath .
You want ammonia at <.025 and copper could have been higher - But what kit are you measuring copper with?
To check against your kits- take a water sample to a store that does NOT use Api kits and have them test your ammonia and nitrates and compare readings- then you'll know where your levels truly are at

 

[tmRoth]

More than likely this was a water quality issue and the fish died from low oxygen or high ammonia. The ammonia badge and Api Kits are the worse when it comes to reliable measurements and I would guess the levels are higher than shown. The wrasse played a role- I agree but there is more and again water.
The pic with the mouth open suggests this fish was struggling to breath .
You want ammonia at <.025 and copper could have been higher - But what kit are you measuring copper with?

Hanna ULR for copper. What test do you recommend for ammonia? The high nitrite reading surprised me today because when I tested before a water change two or three days ago it was at zero.

I've also noticed that the water seems to be taking on a bit of a dingy appearance. Not cloudy so much as just having a bit of a darker appearance.

The aeration is coming from a sponge filter, and the pump is actually oversized for the tank. I have a lot of air going through there and a lot of surface turbulence.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hanna ULR for copper. What test do you recommend for ammonia? The high nitrite reading surprised me today because when I tested before a water change two or three days ago it was at zero.

I've also noticed that the water seems to be taking on a bit of a dingy appearance. Not cloudy so much as just having a bit of a darker appearance.

The aeration is coming from a sponge filter, and the pump is actually oversized for the tank. I have a lot of air going through there and a lot of surface turbulence.

For ammonia- Salifert or else hanna

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I've had a newly-purchased royal gramma and six-line wrasse in a 10-gallon QT for close to 3 weeks. The RG developed signs of ich and was lethargic, so I treated with copper starting just over 2 weeks ago. The RG was back to normal in less than 24 hours. Since then the RG and wrasse have been energetic and eating well. I've never seen any real aggression between them, other than a little territorial dispute when I first put them in the QT together. This morning, there was a little face-off between them, but the wrasse never attacked and the RG was just giving the wrasse the wide-open mouth scare tactic. Both have seemed like best buds, swimming around together.

They both ate normally this afternoon and acted fine. I walked by the tank 2 or 3 hours later and the RG was lying dead in the corner of the tank in the position shown in the photos - curled onto its side, mouth wide open (gills on one side wide open, but I assume that's because of the curled position).

Tank parameters:

pH - 8.2
Copper - 2.0 (Hanna)
Ammonia - Seachem badge shows no reading, API test shows 0.50
Nitrite - 2.0 (API)
Nitrate - 0 (API)

I'm guessing that there was some aggression that I never saw, and the RG was attacked by the wrasse, but I wanted to see of those of you with more experience think the death may have been from a different problem.

The tank is well-aerated, and the wrasse seems fine. He did act really excited and nervous when I found the RG, but is behaving normally now. In an earlier thread when people were helping me with the ich diagnosis and treatmeent, someone mentioned 10 gallons being too small for these two to be together, and I'm thinking they could be getting stressed from spending so long in QT - kind of like family spending too much time stuck in the house together during the covid lockdown.

EDIT: Just wanted to add - I don't see any signs of damage to the RG, so if the wrasse killed it, it would have to be blunt force trama. Has anyone had a six-line ram another fish so hard that it killed the other fish?

The open mouth is really unusual - typically a sign of either severe lack of oxygen (which also would have killed the wrasse) or of Uronema, but that disease would also show large bloody lesions on the fish - so I have wonder if it was indeed a lucky punch be the wrasse?
Jay