Return pump considerations: Fact Based (75G)

[rknott]

At the risk of creating yet another thread with the same old conversation along with creating a religious battle, and after reading forum posts for the last 4 hours and still not having clarity given all of the generic responses like "A little more money", "better quality", "a long time", and not knowing what that means, I am going to attempt to ask some specific quantifiable questions that will help lead me and other inexperienced hobbyists in their decision making process with regards to return pump considerations.

Background, I am looking for a return pump to put in my 30 gallon sump for my 75 gallon reef tank. Quiet is a requirement! It is my understanding I should have between 3x and 5x flow meaning a max of 375 GPH. I have a standard setup with a sump below my display tank. It isn't clear to me how much flow I will lose on the pump rating by the time it gets back to my display tank. I am guessing a pump rated at 400 GPH would suffice. Let me know if that is incorrect.

Please clarify where my review and analysis misses the mark.

Is this pretty much the bottom of the barrel when people refer to cheap Chinese pumps? $12 free shipping. Seems too good to be true. https://www.ebay.com/itm/400-1455-G...hash=item3ac1998d4a:m:mGe31SfNzGkOtMOpPc8TIkw

Jebao (and similar companies) seems to be the first small step up. They have been around for a while, still Chinese, lots of people using them. This is an AC pump $52 https://www.amazon.com/Jebao-Sine-Water-Return-DCP-5000/dp/B078WHWG2Y/ref=sr_1_2?crid=QC4UJJR47B8S&keywords=jebao+return+pump&qid=1553369042&s=pet-supplies&sprefix=jebao+,pets,195&sr=1-2&th=1

Jebao DC pump that seems like a logic upgrade for less than $10 because DC pumps tend to be quieter and adjustable. However, but reading it appears DC pumps in general tend to be less reliable. "less" is ambiguous. While lots of exceptions exist, I have read post of AC pumps going for 20 years and it appears DC pumps can go for 5. Again, depending on quality. $60: https://www.amazon.com/Jebao-Jecod-...cs&qid=1553369934&s=pet-supplies&sr=1-2-spell

Sicce Silent I have seen recommended. Appears to be the next step up that isn't Chinese based and is "more" reliable based on reviews. AND must adhere to fair trade regulations if that is important to you. There are many competitors in the price band as well. $100. AC Pump. This is the 2.0 rated at 568 GPH, but according to the chart will provide less actual flow considering how far water needs to be pumped. Possible I could get by with the 1.5 I found for $65? https://www.marinedepot.com/Sicce_S...SC)&utm_term=1100310865874&utm_content=adgrp1

From there I could spend $150, $200, or more, but I am going to stop the conversation for this budget minded hobbyist that feels I could get "good enough" quality at the Sicce level and not support the stealing of intellectual information.

Does this look about right?

 

[mich2599]

I doubt a 400 GPH pump will get the job done. It will lose a lot of power pumping the water up to the display. A lot of sellers will have a graph showing the amount of water pumped into the display at various heights. I’m currently running the Jebao 4000 at 55% on my 50 gallon.

 

[theMeat]

Ehiem 1260 hands down

 

[rknott]

Ehiem 1260 hands down

I found that here: https://www.marinedepot.com/Eheim_1...SC)&utm_term=1100310865874&utm_content=adgrp1

For $80 more than the Sicce (total $170). What am I getting?

 

[rkpetersen]

Background, I am looking for a return pump to put in my 30 gallon sump for my 75 gallon reef tank. Quiet is a requirement! It is my understanding I should have between 3x and 5x flow meaning a max of 375 GPH. I have a standard setup with a sump below my display tank. It isn't clear to me how much flow I will lose on the pump rating by the time it gets back to my display tank. I am guessing a pump rated at 400 GPH would suffice. Let me know if that is incorrect.

In general you will lose more flow than you might expect, from vertical height as well as friction in pipes and especially at elbows, valves, restrictions and Ts.
Each pump should have a chart of output versus head pressure in feet.
For example the Sicce Syncra 2 you linked to provides 568 gph at 0 head pressure, but no pump functions that way. Assuming 4 feet of head pressure for your system, that cuts the output down to 390 gph or less.
A pump rated for 400 gph will never give you 375 gph or anything close to it in any real world situation.
I like both that Syncra and also the Eheim mentioned above, although the Syncra gives you more bang for your buck and is also slightly more compact.

 

[ca1ore]

The amount of flow you will lose is a function of the amount of back pressure (head height, plumbing size and restrictions) and impellar/volute design. Attempting to guess net flow is mostly a fools errand. I’d buy something that is rated to do 600 GPH max and dial down as necessary. DC controlled pumps are not inherently quieter than AC pumps, nor are they inherently less reliable.

External AC pumps that are fan cooled are noisy due to the design, not D versus A. A fluval seas pump, for example, is an AC pump and dead quiet. The design of a DC controlled pump allows it to be adjustable - with an AC pump you have to choke it with a valve (which does reduce power draw).

AC pumps have been in use on aquariums for decades, thus longevity is known not guessed. DC controlled pumps have not, therefore longevity is not known. Complicating things is the profusion of cheap Chinese made brands. My suspicion is that a well made DC controlled pump will have comparable longevity to a well made AC pump. A cheaply made DC controlled pump (or a cheap AC pump) will not.

Eheim, Sicce and Fluval all make excellent, long-lasting AC pumps that are essentially silent. I’d recommend any of them. I’ve not personally used a DC controlled return pump so cannot say which would be best for your application.

 

[theMeat]

https://www.bigalspets.com/eheim-universal-pumps.html

Have bought from them many times, np. Think it’s the lowest price

Nothing wrong with sicce

Ehiem compact are good quality but imo and ime ehiem hobby best all around, bulletproof, and the only pump that actually produces the ‘rated” gph it claims

 

[rknott]

https://www.bigalspets.com/eheim-universal-pumps.html

Have bought from them many times, np. Think it’s the lowest price

Nothing wrong with sicce

Ehiem compact are good quality but imo and ime ehiem hobby best all around, bulletproof, and the only pump that actually produces the ‘rated” gph it claims

Thanks for the link. Good to understand the GPH matches the claim. I see the 1260 that puts out 635 GPH runs at $130. I am quickly learning these ratings are a little like stereo speaker ratings that aren't always what they seem. On a trip to the local fish store store they had a AquaTop that the lady recommended. I got the 740 GPH version for $70 given I prefer to shop locally when possible. I was disappointed when the flow out of my tank, that is above my sump like 90% of the setups people have, was lower than the NN year old Aquian 450 GPH pump that was a gift with the used system I bought that I am replacing. Further, it was relatively noisy for a new pump with massive vibration. Finally, I found it online when I got home for less than half the price: https://www.amazon.com/AquaTop-SWP-...006PK6L7A/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 I will be returning it today that I told the sales person might happen if it didn't meet standard. This pump might be an option for someone that doesn't want to support China's business practices and doesn't necessarily want a VERY quiet pump. Price is low. Just know to get a much, much higher "rated" pump than you need. Next stop for me will probably be the Sicce that they also sell at the LFS. However, they only have the 2.0 version (for $99) which might be light for my application.

 

[Journeyman]

I just got a jebao dcp-2500 for my return on my 60g. I swapped out a sicce syncra 2 which was making a low hum, although still serviceable, so I'm keeping for backup.

The jebao is quieter. Virtually silent. I also wanted to upgrade for the control. I prefer slowing down the pump vs using to gate valve on the return. The flow is plenty good for my purposes. I need to turn the pump all the way down to prevent bubbles in the overflow. So far I like it. I've only had it a few weeks, so can't comment on reliability yet

 

[WVNed]

I have a 75 gallon tank with a 20 gallon sump. I am running a Sicce Syncra Silent 3.0.
The flow to head height is here. It falls off pretty fast.
https://media.cdn.bulkreefsupply.com/media/wysiwyg/PDFs/syncra.pdf

I was shooting for at least 6x flow at 3 feet of head.

 

[H2Ocooled]

One thing to consider as well is that an AC pump will add heat to your tank, this could be good or bad depending on your setup. I setup a cheap AC pump in my 30g brute garbage can to mix SW and was really surprised by how warm the water gets without even adding a heater.

 

[Ebone]

I use a sicce 3.0 for my 40 breeder/20 sump I wouldn't use less than that for a 75

 

[theMeat]

AC or dc is going to put heat into tank. Wattage and design determines that.

Thanks for the link. Good to understand the GPH matches the claim. I see the 1260 that puts out 635 GPH runs at $130. I am quickly learning these ratings are a little like stereo speaker ratings that aren't always what they seem. On a trip to the local fish store store they had a AquaTop that the lady recommended. I got the 740 GPH version for $70 given I prefer to shop locally when possible. I was disappointed when the flow out of my tank, that is above my sump like 90% of the setups people have, was lower than the NN year old Aquian 450 GPH pump that was a gift with the used system I bought that I am replacing. Further, it was relatively noisy for a new pump with massive vibration. Finally, I found it online when I got home for less than half the price: https://www.amazon.com/AquaTop-SWP-...006PK6L7A/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 I will be returning it today that I told the sales person might happen if it didn't meet standard. This pump might be an option for someone that doesn't want to support China's business practices and doesn't necessarily want a VERY quiet pump. Price is low. Just know to get a much, much higher "rated" pump than you need. Next stop for me will probably be the Sicce that they also sell at the LFS. However, they only have the 2.0 version (for $99) which might be light for my application.

Personally would not go cheap butt on return pump. My first choice for return is ehiem hobby. Good to have an extra, which could be cheap, for temporary back up, water changes, whatever

The thread title says fact based.
Have jebaos that are humming along just fine, despite all the hate. Have seen any and every dc pump not produce near what is claimed, or deal well with head height over time. Only when new. Have also seen many hi end stuff fail. Ecotech, dragon, dolphin, you name it.

 

[rknott]

I just got a jebao dcp-2500 for my return on my 60g. I swapped out a sicce syncra 2 which was making a low hum, although still serviceable, so I'm keeping for backup.

The jebao is quieter. Virtually silent. I also wanted to upgrade for the control. I prefer slowing down the pump vs using to gate valve on the return. The flow is plenty good for my purposes. I need to turn the pump all the way down to prevent bubbles in the overflow. So far I like it. I've only had it a few weeks, so can't comment on reliability yet

This is the first I have heard the Jabao is quieter than the Sicce. Very good to know. I agree the controller is pretty cool. Where do you get it? EBay? Like frequently happens, when buying on EBay and even Amazon there appears to be a bunch of shady descriptions and risk of buying the wrong thing given intentional tagging that is incorrect and some that don't come with the controller (YIKES). I did find this DCP 3000 for $80 rated at about 800 GPH https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071WRVSG1?tag=mc8239334-20 Likely this is the model that makes sense for my application considering loss of pressure.

Can anyone clarify the various Jabao pump models? It appears DCP might be their new line?

• Mentioned here is the DCP-2500 that is about $55 and puts out 660GPH with a controller! (but might be a little light): https://www.ebay.com/itm/122904876570
• At the start of my thread I mentioned the $60 DCS-2000 that puts out 520 GPH https://www.amazon.com/Jebao-Jecod-...cs&qid=1553369934&s=pet-supplies&sr=1-2-spell

 

[rknott]

AC or dc is going to put heat into tank. Wattage and design determines that.


Personally would not go cheap *** on return pump. My first choice for return is ehiem hobby. Good to have an extra, which could be cheap, for temporary back up, water changes, whatever

The thread title says fact based.
Have jebaos that are humming along just fine, despite all the hate. Have seen any and every dc pump not produce near what is claimed, or deal well with head height over time. Only when new. Have also seen many hi end stuff fail. Ecotech, dragon, dolphin, you name it.

Not sure what you mean by "I would not go cheap ***"? What is cheap in your opinion? Please don't take this wrong. Appears you are satisfied with a Jebao that many consider cheap.

 

[Journeyman]

This is the first I have heard the Jabao is quieter than the Sicce. Very good to know. I agree the controller is pretty cool. Where do you get it? EBay? Like frequently happens, when buying on EBay and even Amazon there appears to be a bunch of shady descriptions and risk of buying the wrong thing given intentional tagging that is incorrect and some that don't come with the controller (YIKES). I did find this DCP 3000 for $80 rated at about 800 GPH https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071WRVSG1?tag=mc8239334-20 Likely this is the model that makes sense for my application considering loss of pressure.

Can anyone clarify the various Jabao pump models? It appears DCP might be their new line?

• Mentioned here is the DCP-2500 that is about $55 and puts out 660GPH with a controller! (but might be a little light): https://www.ebay.com/itm/122904876570
• At the start of my thread I mentioned the $60 DCS-2000 that puts out 520 GPH https://www.amazon.com/Jebao-Jecod-...cs&qid=1553369934&s=pet-supplies&sr=1-2-spell

I got it on Amazon for $55. It works fine for me as I feel like I'm getting enough turn over with that pump in my 60g, 20g sump.

I'm curious though, whether everyone is using their return for flow in their tank. I've always been told that the return shouldn't be for flow. That's what power heads and wavemakers are for.

I just try to match my return with my drain. I found the sicce 2.0 was too much at full speed as it was pushing water faster than my overflow drain. So I was reducing it with my ball valve. That was the main reason I wanted to switch to a DC pump, so I could control the flow of the pump directly.

 

[Journeyman]

This is the one I bought:

Jebao DCP Sine Wave Water Return... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078WHWG2Y?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

 

[Journeyman]

This is the one I bought:

Jebao DCP Sine Wave Water Return... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078WHWG2Y?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

It s actually$52.98. So a bit less than 55.

 

[rknott]

It s actually$52.98. So a bit less than 55.

There is a "gotcha" with that seller if you upgrade to the 3000. It is a few dollars more so logically you are ready to click buy. However, if you look at the pictures it doesn't come with the controller. If you want the controller it is much more. I ended up getting the 3000 for 80 here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071WRVSG1?tag=mc8239334-20

 

[rknott]

I got it on Amazon for $55. It works fine for me as I feel like I'm getting enough turn over with that pump in my 60g, 20g sump.

I'm curious though, whether everyone is using their return for flow in their tank. I've always been told that the return shouldn't be for flow. That's what power heads and wavemakers are for.

I just try to match my return with my drain. I found the sicce 2.0 was too much at full speed as it was pushing water faster than my overflow drain. So I was reducing it with my ball valve. That was the main reason I wanted to switch to a DC pump, so I could control the flow of the pump directly.

By flow I mean tank turnover. I am using the terms incorrectly. Power heads are a totally different conversation. You are probably good with your 6o. For my 80 +20 gallons in my 30 gallon sump I need a little more. I want the option to get to 500 (100*5). I have yet to be pushing more water than my drain so I haven't had that problem yet. That is the state I want to get to. And to be clear, I have no idea what I am doing or talking about given a total lack of experience.