Request for a study: origins of the common cycling chart

[LRT]

Seems like it's the terminology being used. I found out very quickly in an old thread that maybe it's not a good idea to try and redefine old school scientific terms and definitions and probably rightly so just out of pure respect. I for sure didn't mean to disrespect our old school true scientific peers, some that have even posted in this thread, it's really awesome. I know mostly everyone here well enough to know that you feel the same way honestly. I think it's a tangled web of stages, techniques, methodology, and probably where i was personally getting crossed up and that some of us have used a mix of new school techniques and approaches to get to the Super healthy thriving reef tank and those are the points we are really trying to get across.
I also learned super quickly from an old thread that based on actual observations it was quite easy. Mind boggling easy to actually prove the old school science our pro reefing scientific peers have passed down.

I'd love to hear how some of the pros in this thread would reccomend a new tank start up to a brand new reefer? My approach now is totally different than it was 4 years ago.
Flawless dream tank start-up for a new reefer to follow?
It's going to drastically change from dry rock start-ups to live rock start-ups that are already carrying a bioload.
How would you do both scenarios?

 

[brandon429]

questions for adherents to old cycling science vs new

-can that reef in its current presentation be in ammonia distress from a broken cycle?

-can you state perhaps more than one indicator solely from that video where the reef tank isn't in ammonia distress> I see 5 markers, only asking for one or two. ok go

fair disclosure: a common hobby ammonia test kit said the reef is about to die from ammonia noncontrol.


do you trust your eyes, what you see above in terms of five obvious markers there was no/is no ammonia concern now or in the future, or do you defer to what the cheap test kit says


all of updated cycling science progress hinges on your collective answer since you all are the trainers for new posters. ok dig in heels it's going to die tomorrow right> the reef/in distress bigtime as the kit stated?

let's say for one microsecond that how a tank presents in video actually matters in cycle diagnostics, not even knowing anything about the test kit used to discern safety status (the reading given, the brand of the kit as related to other stalled cycle posts)

what's the #1 marker above all that the tank never saw a dangerous ammonia spike requiring extra new bottle bac to be added? who can catch the detail I dang near missed it until my third view then it hit me like a ton of bricks

JDA above all I'm interested to hear your take and this isn't a poke the bear approach, I truly want to know when in your reefing lifetime you've ever seen a tank layout looking like that be in ammonia distress with absolutely no symptoms shown. what meter made you believe it> the hach? or a non digital hobby kit

additional disclosure based on something you said here earlier: that reef isn't very old/maybe a month total now

you mentioned that cycling has no real close date, that basic ability to carry ammonia isn't the same as matured ability, this is your chance to run with that and validate the test kit's reading on that actual tank above. I left out the thread in question to not taint the assessment solely going off the video

new cycling science makes the complete determination of cycle status there off the video plus the known number of days the tank has been running factored alongside it's inoculation and feed status to begin the cycle. I did the original cycle on that tank so I'm aware of those details, but it's very much a brand new reef setup that's for sure.

 

[brandon429]

nothing will conceptualize the ongoing struggle between new and old cycling science better than that video above and how we interpret that reef's cycle status from what we can see objectively, not subjectively.

subjectively is the heart of all non digital test kits. objective cycle eval are two of the most normally-behaving fish I've ever seen among the exact same rock stack any nano reef on the planet has used since 2001 and the opened corals. 3 of the 5 markers were just disclosed/I'm a terrible secret keeper. what's the big, unspoken proof though in that tank?

 

[brandon429]

old cycling science: your tank can be about to die from ammonia noncontrol and your system may not show it. something you can't pinpoint as an ammonia origination source can sneak up on you, dump loads of ammonia into the tank causing a nine dollar test kit to thankfully save your tank from crashing just in time, if you're testing ammonia often enough in a post-cycle reef display. you must verify your reef has ammonia control, it is not inherent. it's variable, tank to tank, making actual testing the only method of discernment. literally every cycle training manual I've ever seen says this as a basic summary.


new cycling science: no, that cannot ever ever ever ever happen. cease testing for ammonia in a reef display tank after cycling (better yet, use testless cycling models to avoid testing during the cycle and getting misled by misreads) and don't own a nitrite test kit for any aspect of display tank reefing. if you choose to own + run ammonia and nitrite test kits in a display tank, expect fear and redundant purchases to rule your entire reefing paradigm. expect your fish to die from placing all your fear into something not to be feared, while simultaneously ignoring the #1 real risk to your reef=fish disease import and expression.

old and new cycling science are mutually exclusive concepts down the line. polar opposite in determination + advised actions. fascinating to study. fascinating market impacts to reefers, fish retention % etc.

if that video above shows a reef in distress from ammonia then some bottle bac needs to be added as reinforcement, though we already got past the bottle bac addition stage.

if that reef isn't in distress, then to add more bottle bac in response to what a $9 kit said is perpetuating the biggest ripoff in reefing history, aka old cycling science.

 

[brandon429]

Cycling advice needed

Sorry for yet another thread on this, but I'm really not sure best way to proceed. Water was added to aquarium 14 days ago. Tank is bare bottom with minimal rock in the display but I do have extra rock and bio bricks in the sump. The rock I'm using is secondhand actual live rock that I bleach...

www.reef2reef.com

what's happening now in the thread is old cycling science regression. a consequence undefined and never actually stated was hinted, and the specific ready date discerned in years of work was overridden using a fear scheme that has zero work basis. the reader is now going to buy a bunch of bottle bac, and wait longer for something already in control, then skip disease preps in order to catch up for the extra subjective wait time.

all caused by old rules combined with nh4 test kits we never expect to read zero, he wasn't told of that part. one little statement of fear can change a cycle's outcome fully. in my work threads he'd have been off to a great start by now I just about had him reading about disease preps....but now we're set right back into his tank isnt cycled.

Try and find and link one seneye cycle on Dr Tims bacteria, beyond day ten wait, that ghost fed plus ammonia, where the ammonia is stuck

We can't find that. We pick and choose when to believe api regardless of the context. The salifert reading above is non toxic. it's not possible to progress past old cycling science if we pick and choose when api is correct, ignoring all other context. There is a reason the ammonia line from a cycling chart drops after day ten and stays there...see any of Taricha's studies on this particular strain of bottle bac as well.

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in complete contrast to that thread above, here's a twin but we're pure on it/nobody inputs old cycling science

Day 6 fishless cycle question

I'm currently fishless cycling a 15 gallon AIO. Caribsea live reef sand and caribsea dry rock substrate. Here are my parameters and question. Using API test strips (sorry new to salt and I have plenty to use up!) Day 1 Ph 8 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 0 Ammonia 2 Day 2 PH 7.5 Nitrite 0.5 Nitrate 0...

www.reef2reef.com

perhaps we could just leave that one alone with no comntamination? then we can compare outcomes

Look how smooth the bottom one is going regarding disease stocking rates and order

By not misdirecting them regarding the bioload carry date we were able to focus + move directly into fish disease prevention which they really appear to have heeded

This is how you change fish loss rates in the hobby, by applying updated cycling science and shoring up cycle doubt (they were given a specific start date for testless beginning) and aiming all research into fallow and quarantine timing