Request for a study: origins of the common cycling chart

[brandon429]

I would love to know who/where/when/dates the common cycling chart that shows ammonia compliance by day 10-12 / nitrite compliance by day ~25 and variable rising nitrate was discovered


that mechanism runs waste treatment plants, I don't think it came about solely for the aquarium industry. whenever humans started handling wastewater is likely when the inherent timing study / that chart was made

can someone do a writeup on it's origins? I searched the web rather in depth and honestly could not find much.

*who invented the common cycling chart.

 

[MnFish1]

A chronology of human understanding of the nitrogen cycle

Nitrogen over the ages! It was discovered in the eighteenth century. The following century, its importance in agriculture was documented and the basic components of its cycle were elucidated. In the twentieth century, a process to provide an inexhaustible ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There are multiple 'charts' about aquarium cycling - and I think it's impossible to determine who made the first one. This next article will tell you more than you ever wanted to know about cycling

Microbial Community Succession and Nutrient Cycling Responses following Perturbations of Experimental Saltwater Aquaria

Saltwater aquaria are living systems that support a complex biological community of fish, invertebrates, and microbes. The health and maintenance of saltwater tanks are pressing concerns for home hobbyists, zoos, and professionals in the aquarium trade; ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[brandon429]

Very astute sources too. Reading now and thank you

 

[MnFish1]

Very astute sources too. Reading now and thank you

You're welcome. PS - I thought you would like the second one since it takes about cleaning, and the effects on the biome.

 

[Dan_P]

A chronology of human understanding of the nitrogen cycle

Nitrogen over the ages! It was discovered in the eighteenth century. The following century, its importance in agriculture was documented and the basic components of its cycle were elucidated. In the twentieth century, a process to provide an inexhaustible ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There are multiple 'charts' about aquarium cycling - and I think it's impossible to determine who made the first one. This next article will tell you more than you ever wanted to know about cycling

Microbial Community Succession and Nutrient Cycling Responses following Perturbations of Experimental Saltwater Aquaria

Saltwater aquaria are living systems that support a complex biological community of fish, invertebrates, and microbes. The health and maintenance of saltwater tanks are pressing concerns for home hobbyists, zoos, and professionals in the aquarium trade; ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Thanks. Verrrrry interesting articles.

@taricha, in case you have not seen this one, the second article touches on biodiversity and water chemistry, something you alluded to in the “Long Live Biodiversity“ post. Biodiversity can fluctuate but water chemistry can remain unaffected.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks. Verrrrry interesting articles.

@taricha, in case you have not seen this one, the second article touches on biodiversity and water chemistry, something you alluded to in the “Long Live Biodiversity“ post. Biodiversity can fluctuate but water chemistry can remain unaffected.

Yes - I thought you both would be interested.

 

[Dan_P]

I would love to know who/where/when/dates the common cycling chart that shows ammonia compliance by day 10-12 / nitrite compliance by day ~25 and variable rising nitrate was discovered


that mechanism runs waste treatment plants, I don't think it came about solely for the aquarium industry. whenever humans started handling wastewater is likely when the inherent timing study / that chart was made

can someone do a writeup on it's origins? I searched the web rather in depth and honestly could not find much.

*who invented the common cycling chart.

I bet there is carryover from the freshwater aquaria hobby. Also, there are many hand drawn curves out there. I also wonder if the nitrate curve is pure fantasy given that most folks don‘t know that nitrite interferes with the nitrate test. The interference is easy to remedy but out of reach for just about all hobbyists.

 

[MnFish1]

I bet there is carryover from the freshwater aquaria hobby. Also, there are many hand drawn curves out there. I also wonder if the nitrate curve is pure fantasy given that most folks don‘t know that nitrite interferes with the nitrate test. The interference is easy to remedy but out of reach for just about all hobbyists.

Actually - there are several articles - that it seems these curves are taken from - It totally depends on the 'cycling protocol'. On the other hand - it seems like multiple sites just keep repeating the same graphs - with no reference.

 

[brandon429]

Nice point Dan that's solid

 

[Dan_P]

Actually - there are several articles - that it seems these curves are taken from - It totally depends on the 'cycling protocol'. On the other hand - it seems like multiple sites just keep repeating the same graphs - with no reference.

I have noticed the repeating/linking too

 

[brandon429]

Agreed. A live rock transfer cycle is not the same as an unassisted purely waited out cycle which there really isn't a chart for, it hasn't been studied enough to determine consistency yet/ only snippets of info are available for how long a bucket of saltwater and dry rock or any common surface area (kept with motion and topoff and decent temps) will self- cycle to carry a nominal bioload simply by not being sealed off from the home its kept + assembled in

I'm able to use the common cycling chart's ammonia control timing for reef cycles simply because we're all pretty much dealing in starter bacteria one way or another and given ten days, enough streamlining is in place to carry the fish they want. And given ten days, 100% of calibrated seneye posted cycles agree that ammonia was fine. (No other test in reefing has aligned ammonia control hindsight like seneye has)


It was fascinating to me some years back that the time axis of a cycling chart (for ammonia) really does correspond pretty well to the parameter axis when dealing with all but the most extreme reef cycle setups. It's to the degree I've completely foregone the testing aspect in my threads and only factor the time axis now. I am thankful many friends add in their systems using this method so we get to collect outcomes across the years and look for patterns.

 

[MnFish1]

Agreed. A live rock transfer cycle is not the same as an unassisted purely waited out cycle which there really isn't a chart for, it hasn't been studied enough to determine consistency yet/ only snippets of info are available for how long a bucket of saltwater and dry rock or any common surface area (kept with motion and topoff and decent temps) will self- cycle to carry a nominal bioload simply by not being sealed off from the home its kept + assembled in

I'm able to use the common cycling chart's ammonia control timing for reef cycles simply because we're all pretty much dealing in starter bacteria one way or another and given ten days, enough streamlining is in place to carry the fish they want.


It was fascinating to me some years back that the time axis of a cycling chart really does correspond pretty well to the parameter axis when dealing with all but the most extreme reef cycle setups. It's to the degree I've completely foregone the testing aspect in my threads and only factor the time axis now. I am thankful many friends add in their systems using this method so we get to collect outcomes across the years and look for patterns.

I have never tested my cycling tanks.

 

[brandon429]

Am currently thinking due to combo of factors: initial inoculation + typically people have waited ten days or better + dilution + Dan's stated inherent pH protection we've pretty much all got it covered

And this is exactly why I don't believe in yesteryear's claims that someone's cycle is stuck. It wasn't to just be contrary it was because i keep finding then ten day wait thing to be universally aligning in both digital testing and in actual ability to carry fed fish just fine.

 

[Garf]

A chronology of human understanding of the nitrogen cycle

Nitrogen over the ages! It was discovered in the eighteenth century. The following century, its importance in agriculture was documented and the basic components of its cycle were elucidated. In the twentieth century, a process to provide an inexhaustible ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There are multiple 'charts' about aquarium cycling - and I think it's impossible to determine who made the first one. This next article will tell you more than you ever wanted to know about cycling

Microbial Community Succession and Nutrient Cycling Responses following Perturbations of Experimental Saltwater Aquaria

Saltwater aquaria are living systems that support a complex biological community of fish, invertebrates, and microbes. The health and maintenance of saltwater tanks are pressing concerns for home hobbyists, zoos, and professionals in the aquarium trade; ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I maybe reading the chart on the second link incorrectly; but at first glance it looks like ammonia control takes from 2 to three weeks in these saltwater ponds, and levels do indeed fluctuate a little, even after 30 days;

 

[LRT]

Am currently thinking due to combo of factors: initial inoculation + typically people have waited ten days or better + dilution + Dan's stated inherent pH protection we've pretty much all got it covered

And this is exactly why I don't believe in yesteryear's claims that someone's cycle is stuck. It wasn't to just be contrary it was because i keep finding then ten day wait thing to be universally aligning in both digital testing and in actual ability to carry fed fish just fine.

It's a good month to decide to become a reefer again Digging all these new threads and discussions across the forum!
Very interested and intrigued in this PH and new tank topic being discussed. In case I missed it can you or @Dan_P point me to discussion or thread where this is being discussed?
I can tell say without a doubt. Since well before my recent crash I started noticing a huge drop in PH. It's what eluded me to fact that I had a major issue occurring in my tank. Between going on vacation and allowing my alk to bottom out for a week as well as the metal toxicity I was running around 8.35 during the day to 8.1 ph at night on my best days. After the crash and currently I'm no better than 8.0 on my best day all the way down to 7.6 on my worse night.
I most def feel I wiped out my water column. My water was a Rusty color up until just recently my wife thought I increased my light schedule and made my lights brighter it was so bad until after the recent rip clean.
My surfaces also took a huge hit with 90% covered in nasties of all sorts.
I'm curious if there is anything I can do besides removals to help nudge the good algae/surface films back in a favorable way that may help reestablish the balance in my system and bring my PH back up?
This is really fascinating as I'm dealing with this in real time right now and I could try different things and see if it helps.

 

[brandon429]

the take is that new tanks inherently tend towards lower pH vs high. it takes careful exclusion of co2 in planning + alk control well-set to keep pH high, something rather hard to luck upon

a side benefit of being low pH is that ammonia present doesn't kill anything, if new tanks did indeed trend towards 8.2 there would be much less leeway for remaining ammonia to not be killing the first bioload entrants. this is part of the ongoing struggle to define when it's safe to deem a cycle closed, ready to move on into disease control planning, and its a VERY critical aspect in determining if six million posted api .25.5 readings were indeed correct or not.

hobbyists don't have a good way to measure pH (guessing at color hues won't cut it for something this detailed) so we just don't know what the truth is for trending in pH for new systems, namely a bunch of dry rocks with two clownfish added and a bottle of Dr Tim's.

owing to Taricha's findings, the Dr Tims is probably working right off the bat and six million api readings were the bane of my existence

 

[Garf]

It's a good month to decide to become a reefer again Digging all these new threads and discussions across the forum!
Very interested and intrigued in this PH and new tank topic being discussed. In case I missed it can you or @Dan_P point me to discussion or thread where this is being discussed?
I can tell say without a doubt. Since well before my recent crash I started noticing a huge drop in PH. It's what eluded me to fact that I had a major issue occurring in my tank. Between going on vacation and allowing my alk to bottom out for a week as well as the metal toxicity I was running around 8.35 during the day to 8.1 ph at night on my best days. After the crash and currently I'm no better than 8.0 on my best day all the way down to 7.6 on my worse night.
I most def feel I wiped out my water column. My water was a Rusty color up until just recently my wife thought I increased my light schedule and made my lights brighter it was so bad until after the recent rip clean.
My surfaces also took a huge hit with 90% covered in nasties of all sorts.
I'm curious if there is anything I can do besides removals to help nudge the good algae/surface films back in a favorable way that may help reestablish the balance in my system and bring my PH back up?
This is really fascinating as I'm dealing with this in real time right now and I could try different things and see if it helps.

I expect you’re pH issues are due to bacteria respiration, consuming all the dead stuff leftover. Normal rules apply, increase aeration with low CO2 air, remove detritus. Did you do a full cleaning, everything? Rocks, sand, the whole lot?

 

[LRT]

I expect you’re pH issues are due to bacteria respiration, consuming all the dead stuff leftover. Normal rules apply, increase aeration with low CO2 air, remove detritus. Did you do a full cleaning, everything? Rocks, sand, the whole lot?

Hi @Garf I did just recently perform a full rip clean of all my surfaces in this thread here-

Build Thread - Deep Reset, Reviving my 80 gallon lowboy.

Wanted to start a new thread to hopefully keep track of things as the new tank build progresses. As well as for a little extra added motivation to follow through. Real quick this is the same tank from that crazy instacycle- instastock- full tank transfer- call it whatever you want to call it...

www.reef2reef.com

I've also changed a ton of water pretty close to 300 gallons over the last month. Probably a total waste as I found out one of my DI cans as well as my gravity feed top off res was covered in a nasty clear film/sludge. Not sure what all has been pumped into the system from that but I'm sure it has everything to do with the nasties I've been dealing with.
Alk is locked in and on point now being controlled with my Apex/Trident/Dos.
To you point and just yesterday as well as today I'm starting to see some bubbly nasties pop back up as well as some snot and I expected it. I feel like I have a ways to go with my water column for sure. My plan today is to siphon all my surfaces, nasties through 1micron sock and back to the sump to see if it helps with PH and to turn the tide on my surfaces.

 

[brandon429]

I would be running a uv unit rated for a fifteen thousand gallon pond on a setup that big and costly

 

[ingchr1]

Copyright 1996, no references noted. Certainly not the origins, but might be of interest.