Reef zlements issue, dosing huge amounts

[ulferik]

Fixing the problem depends on what the problem is.

Here's my general recommendation for precipitation issues:

1. Stop all efforts to boost pH.
2. Stop dosing alk for a bit and let it decline.
3. Reduce pH by switching to a low pH alk mix like sodium bicarbonate, or a calcium organic such as Tropic Marin All for Reef.
4. Ensure magnesium is normal to high.
5. Keep organics and phosphate on the high side.

After a few days of not dosing alk, restart slowly, adding additives to a very high flow area so it mixes in fast.

so if this is going too be over the next few days of not dosing, do we know when too start dosing again? does it has to be a few day or is 24H enough?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So it cannot reach harmfull low levels of kh just by stopping the dosers? we will try this and i do understand at some point the demand has too drop aswell.

I would not say it cannot, but usually it doesn’t. If it does drop below about 6.4 dKH, you could use some baking soda to keep it there.

 

[Ishy]

Curiously I've seen on the proper Reef Zlements forum that you are actually suggesting the solution for a problem which they already identified early morning today and provided instructions on how to fix it, so likely you are not the only one who understands chemistry!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Curiously I've seen on the proper Reef Zlements forum that you are actually suggesting the solution for a problem which they already identified early morning today and provided instructions on how to fix it, so likely you are not the only one who understands chemistry!

lol

Not sure why you are so focussed on trying to prove they know what they are doing. They very well may, but you might ask them what their claim of 72,000 ppm of calcium per liter means. lol

I’m certain they do not have a better understanding of the issues in this thread than we do.

if the directions they posted look similar to what I posted, I expect they may have learned it from me in one of the hundreds of times I have posted it in the last few decades.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

so if this is going too be over the next few days of not dosing, do we know when too start dosing again? does it has to be a few day or is 24H enough?

No. It depends on many factors, and sometimes it takes a second try for longer.

 

[Ishy]

I’m certain they do not have a better understanding of the issues in this thread than we do.

Your arrogance amazes me...I'm out.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Your arrogance amazes me...I'm out.

Glad to amaze.

 

[Borat]

This is very familiar to me.. he should check precipitation on return pump and powerheads. These are the main places where you can spot it. Dilution does not help much, he needs to lower ph of solution..

 

[David Ladds]

Hmm, you are kind of assuming and making statements that RZ don't know what they are doing, I am not questioning your knowledge, I wouldn't stoop that low, but it has to be said you are kind of taking a bit of a know it all attitude, without actually speaking to RZ themselves

I dont think at any point you asked what their dosing schedule is? I think you would be interested to see it.. I have as it was posted in the RZ support group, and it has already been stated in this thread that precipitation has been identified

I have been using RZ since they started in 2020, here is my tank and I don't think its doing too bad for a product made by a company you imply don't know what they are doing

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hmm, you are kind of assuming and making statements that RZ don't know what they are doing, I am not questioning your knowledge, I wouldn't stoop that low, but it has to be said you are kind of taking a bit of a know it all attitude, without actually speaking to RZ themselves

I dont think at any point you asked what their dosing schedule is? I think you would be interested to see it.. I have as it was posted in the RZ support group, and it has already been stated in this thread that precipitation has been identified

I have been using RZ since they started in 2020, here is my tank and I don't think its doing too bad for a product made by a company you imply don't know what they are doing

This whole discussion is ridiculous, and I find your comments strange. I never once said it was a bad product. You users keep repeating that as if I did.

my point was that folks should not come to my expert form and tell folks to go elsewhere for advice when I am perfectly able to give scientifically sound advice.

I do not know who runs Facebook for ReefZements, and never said their answers are or would be wrong.

I cautioned folks that manufacturers often give poor and biased advice, I posted one comment from the ReefZemements web site that is, IMO, biased and poor advice that is at best misleading. I also noted some things they posted that are not scientifically sound. Doesn’t mean your tank is not great, but it is a caution about their chemical understanding.

I know my answers to the questions here are correct. This is not some complex issue with diverse viewpoints.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I dont think at any point you asked what their dosing schedule is? I think you would be interested to see it.. I have as it was posted in the RZ support group, and it has already been stated in this thread that precipitation has been identified

You believe their problem relates to their dosing schedule? The op said the dosed were spaced out with a min of 15 minute gap.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

so if this is going too be over the next few days of not dosing, do we know when too start dosing again? does it has to be a few day or is 24H enough?

Any update on how things are going?

 

[ulferik]

Any update on how things are going?

Hi, thanks for following up. Looks like a classic precipitation issue. Stopped dosing for a few days. He has started dosing again now with a whole different volume of the 2part. Things are looking better, might be loosing some of the sps but not sure yet. Thank you

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi, thanks for following up. Looks like a classic precipitation issue. Stopped dosing for a few days. He has started dosing again now with a whole different volume of the 2part. Things are looking better, might be loosing some of the sps but not sure yet. Thank you

OK, hopefully things will be OK.

High pH is the biggest driver of precipitation. A rise of 0.3 pH units is the same with regards to precipitation potential as a doubling of alk or calcium.

 

[Borat]

Glad to amaze.

I have read earlier Randy's recommendations (pre-dating Z Elements) - how to deal with upset ionic balance (that was a few months ago - when I had similar issues and I was unable to stop DKH from dropping). Those were really helpful.

I can confirm that Randy posted those recommendations long before others on the referred forum learnt how to keep a gold fish alive (and well before Z-elements was even conceived)...

 

[MrkRd84]

Think what?

Many, many manufacturers do not properly understand their own products, including many big name companies. Few have actually demonstrated what it would take for me to have confidence in their claims.

The fact that ReefZelements misuse units of measure of potency does not lead me to full confidence in them, but they may have correct info.

In general, your comment is somewhat dissing of this forum since we provide expert chemistry advice, without need to go elsewhere to answer questions of the type in this thread

Hi randy, I remembered coming across the thread a while back and thought of it recently because reefzlements recently released pretty much a book on the methology behind zlements backed up by a lot of science.

I thought you might find it interesting and wondered if it might be able to help you form a final opinion on if they are one of the guys that actually understand their product or not

Link below

https://www.zlements.com/_files/ugd/ce1c97_38924353bce74869ac93d61f0831e242.pdf?index=true

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I did not read every word of it, but they do pack a lot of correct science into it, including a correct debunking of the Fauna Marin claims of hydroxide dosing causing problems. Most of what I read is well written and explained.

They still seem to use confusing comments about dKH in a liter of supplement, and they give what I consider are unsubstantiated assertions about certain trace elements with no known biological requirement such as rubidium and barium.

 

[MrkRd84]

I did not read every word of it, but they do pack a lot of correct science into it, including a correct debunking of the Fauna Marin claims of hydroxide dosing causing problems. Most of what I read is well written and explained.

They still seem to use confusing comments about dKH in a liter of supplement, and they give what I consider are unsubstantiated assertions about certain trace elements with no known biological requirement such as rubidium and barium.

Thanks randy.

I've been on conversation with them today on their FB group about their method.

I'm still not decided if it really is better than more traditional methods with water changes or if it's just a way to flog more of their products including the ICP testing that they provide.

 

[ReneReef]

I'm still not decided if it really is better than more traditional methods with water changes or if it's just a way to flog more of their products including the ICP testing that they provide.

If I may pitch in.

I think Reef Zlements falls in a group of is very similar additive programs e.g. Triton (other methods), ATI Essentials+, Modern Reef, Oceamo etc.

All claim to be the best, none can actually show it.
And no one has shown reliable evidence of a noteworthy difference.

Regarding water changes, I think aiming to do minimal or no water changes takes more than simply choosing a method, sending in ICP analyses and getting some bottles of individual elements. What, exactly remains a lot of guess work, but anything from filtration configuration to fish stocking/feeding and lighting will likely have some sort of impact.
Anekdotally, by far most people I know that stopped water changes have come back from that decision.

I would say, aim to do some form of water changes regardless of the method you choose. Pick the method that fits you (incl. your budget) best and is very easily (and reliably) available in your area.

 

[Grid Reef]

Hi everyone!

A friend of mine started dosing reef zlements ph plus after using ati+ for some time.. due too low ph with ato+ he went for the rz ph plus. When he did the ph went from avg 7,9/8 too staggering 8,4 with peaks in the 8,55 range..

After this he has diluted the solution with rz complete too lower the ph potency.

When he started al of this he had to dose about 75ml of part1 alone. Today, 3weeks later he is dosing almost 250(!!!)ml of just the part1. This is a red sea reefer 250 with 99% sps. But still, it is 3times what others dose with tank double that size and with the same stocking(or heavier).he is still going up in dosing and is strugling keeping 6,6/6,7 in kh.
Dosing about 180-190ml of part 2

What we have been looking at so far:

-Precipitation
-bad calibrated versa dosers
-siphon in dosing pumps
-poor mixed when dosed
-dosing pause between 1 and 2 part(min 15minutes)
All of the above looks good.

We are now looking at the solution itself, could it be bad?

Anyone with a good way too test the kh potency in a dosing solution?

Any ideas?

I’ve had some similar issues with last batch PH plus, have had 3 sets of the P1 and P2, first batch was dosing about 8ml a day, second batch was about 35ml and this third batch is back to around 10ml. It looks like a similar time frame for the second batch.